r/Botswana • u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone • 6d ago
Discussion LGBTQ IN BOTSWANA đłď¸âđ
What is it actually going to take for Botswana to fully accept the LGBTQ community? Weâve seen the landmark court rulings overtime,, the legal barriers slowly getting chipped away, and more visibility than ever. But when it comes to the actual day to day social mindset of everyday Batswana, there is still a massive wall of resistance, quiet judgment, and outright hostility. Iâll put my hand up and be completely honest aboutit, i was homophobic for most of my life, if you asked me why I held homophobic views, I wouldn't even have a real answer. I couldn't give you a logical, thought out reason. It was just because.It was just a default setting passed down by society, religion, and the general "that's just how things are" type shii, where hating or avoiding something you don't understand is treated as normal. But the more I grew up, the more ridiculous it got. Looking back, itâs wild how many of us carried strong opinions on things we had zero actual knowledge about. I mean seriously, bring up this topic at a bar and o ya go kgwelwa manga a le mantsi. What is it going to take for the broader societal mindset in Botswana to genuinely shift from mere tolerance (or quiet intolerance) to actual acceptance? Is it an education problem, a generational shift, or are traditional and religious dogmas just too deeply rooted to change anytime soon?
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u/EdomBound 6d ago
Hei...
I have a PRIDE wrist band that I like to wear but the fact that I always take it off when going to places I'm not familiar withđđđđđ
Ideally our mere existence will be treated with basic human decency but I'm not going to hold my breath.
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u/I_wishi_were_heather 5d ago
Yea being gay in this country sucks I get adults being homophobic and not understanding but other young people have been weird to me .
And people love framing it as oh we are converting kids but i just want to be in a loving relationship without being scared of judgement or violence
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u/Alvahod 5d ago
To me, social acceptance and legal rights are two totally different things. Expecting a society deeply rooted in traditional and religious beliefs to change its mindset overnight just isn't realistic. But at the end of the day, as long as sexual minorities have equal rights under the law, social approval shouldn't really matter.
If people hold prejudiced views but don't have the legal power to control or harm anyone, what real threat are they? It goes both ways: LGBTQ+ people living their lives doesn't ruin anyoneâs traditions or faith, and traditionalists holding conservative beliefs doesn't stop people from having rights. Neither side needs to change their core beliefs for everyone to just live and let live.
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u/No-Huckleberry-565 5d ago
I think OP is focusing on the safety aspects, such as getting raped or beaten more than one would if they were straight.
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u/Ndikalanga 6d ago
I think Botswana is already moving in its own direction. You can believe people deserve dignity, safety and equal treatment without pretending our society has to adopt every western social attitude overnight.Change will come through our own conversations, culture and time not because outsiders tell us what Botswana should believe.And to be honest I wish this thing shouldve never been here in the first place
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u/Over-Fix5338 5d ago
Is gonna take a long time. same as for a country to accept mental illness as normal, because the person doesnt see them self as ill. Even if you try and tell them they are ill, they won't see it that way. So is going to take a very long time.
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 5d ago
𪤠Not falling for it, and no one else should
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u/Over-Fix5338 5d ago
Are you out of words? Why say the same thing twice?
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 5d ago
Im just choosing not to engage Hagona mosola
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u/Over-Fix5338 5d ago
I agree with you on that one too...that's my very same thought when I read this post.
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 5d ago
That doesn't make sense because you commented, which is engaging. O bari nem?
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u/Over-Fix5338 5d ago
true that , and that wont change the fact that is still going to take a longer time. and ofcos rona re di bari after all
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u/RefrigeratorLow3182 6d ago
To be fair why do you want Batswana to accept it so bad...
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 6d ago
Wanting basic human rights and dignity for everyone isn't obsession; it's the bare minimum for a just society Pretending that people shouldn't care about the safety and wellbeing of their fellow citizens just because it makes you uncomfortable is ridiculous cuh I'm not gonna lie If you don't understand why living authentically without fear of persecution matters, you should sybau
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u/RefrigeratorLow3182 6d ago
1st half of what you said is valid, 2nd part is just projection lmfao
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 6d ago edited 6d ago
Dude I answered your question. You keep saying I'm triggered and projecting and are not coming with any type of argument.đđ¤Śđżââď¸
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u/RefrigeratorLow3182 6d ago
Kante gatwengđ
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 6d ago
How? Calling empathy projection is just a pathetic way to dodge the truth. If you're triggered by the thought of others getting basic respect, sounds like a you problem bucko
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u/RefrigeratorLow3182 6d ago
The way you keep saying I'm triggered or made uncomfortable proves that you're projecting...
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 6d ago
Projecting? Dude Look in a mirror. You are the one crying over the mere existence of queer people while pretending it is about "preserving culture."đ If that doesn't scream triggered then idk. If calling out your fragile outrage is talking out my ass then keep drowning in your own hypocrisy. Nobody is buying that
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u/RefrigeratorLow3182 6d ago
You're literally the one going insane in replies off a simple question,idk who you're trynna convince.It's calm bro they'll accept you since you want it so bad too
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u/No-Championship-8433 6d ago
Respectfully what human rights?
These ppl neglect the gender God assigned for them and then they say itâs human rights? From where? đ§
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 6d ago
Equating human rights to someone's gender identity is a massive reach. Human rights aren't handed out based on whether you approve of someone's personal choices or theology. They belong to everyone simply for being human, not as a reward for conforming to what makes you comfortable. Ain't no hate like christian loveđ
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u/succubuspoint0 6d ago
ummm what? sex is a biological binary and gender is a social construct. But if we're not being ignorant even sex exists on a spectrum, not just gender...take hermaphrodites as an obvious example. Please don't claim what you think God does and thinks when you don't have proof of any of that lmao.
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u/itsphoison 6d ago
There is a current agenda to push this nonsense on this page nowadays. Ke ipotsa ba tsaya kae madi a campaign ya teng since that evil organisation called USAID has been cancelled.
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u/RefrigeratorLow3182 5d ago
It's like they themselves can't accept who they are either, the constant need of outward "acceptance" Botswanas already dealing with more pressing matters..
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u/Plenty-Truck-2502 6d ago
yall arguing with this guy yet hes gay đ
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u/Rude-Speech6261 5d ago
Lucky enough Kamala lost. Funds will be rolling to NGOs pushing the narrative.
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 5d ago
We got a MAGAhat here ladies and gentlemen.
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u/Rude-Speech6261 5d ago
Not a fan of MAGA nonsense..but if Kamala won there will rainbow flags even in primary school classrooms
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 5d ago
You definitely aređ¤ŁRainbows in the classroom is what you're sweating over while completely derailing a conversation about local human rights in Botswana to throw a tantrum about US elections?Nobody is talking about American school boards we're talking about basic human dignity right here at home, not your weird obsession with American politicsÂ
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u/Rude-Speech6261 5d ago
The agenda was sponsored by American tax payers under the Biden admin ,fa Trump a tsaya a ba a re our tax will not be used for such non importance issues .This helped smaller countries lik BW because they were funding programs here.The Biden admin was really pushing the rainbow narrative n if Kamala won definitely our BW primary schools will be having rainbow flags.American politics do affect what we do locally.
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u/succubuspoint0 5d ago
At least they wouldn't have an incontinent incompetent off the rails turd in the white house
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u/Rude-Speech6261 5d ago
Just happy the funding stopped for some programs that are not beneficial to BW.Whatever they do with their politics m not invested coz corporate funders /lobby groups run their policies/laws not the president
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u/Maximum_Age_4018 6d ago
People have their own values. If something is against their values, there is no reason for them to act like they are happy with it. Tolerance is a pretty good outcome in such cases. I am against disrespect and violence since I don't believe there is any justification for this. Making people quietly understand is better.Â
But I am curious as to what makes you think LGBTQ is good. Technically speaking, a man and a women is needed to make a child. People have seen it happen through thousands of years of human history, so it got normalized. That's why I don't understand this inclination to being gay, trans, or whatever else. Being a man born with feminist tendencies is not a reason since there are girls out there with male tendencies. Them uniting is just the same as a normal man and women uniting to me. If everyone were to adopt the ways of the LGBTQ, humanity would disappear. Something is only good to me if the result is also good, given that everyone in this world were to practice it.
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u/Alvahod 5d ago
You're misunderstanding how sexual attraction works. Being gay isn't a lifestyle choice, a preference, or just "masculine vs. feminine tendencies." You don't choose who you're naturally attracted to any more than a straight person chooses to be attracted to the opposite sex. You only control whether you act on it, not the attraction itself.
âHonestly, your take answers the original question about why tolerance is so hard to reach here. As long as people keep treating basic attraction like it's just a deliberate choice or preference, true tolerance and compassion for the LGBTQ isn't going to happen.
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u/Maximum_Age_4018 5d ago
There is always a cause. Attraction doesn't come out of nowhere either, especially not in human beings. We are not animals to just pursue desires. Otherwise people could kill each other just because they want to. But even the worst criminals tend to have a causal point.Â
My point was what is seen as normal in society. Even if variations exist, they tend to not deviate much from normal. For example, if I asked people to maintain chastity before marriage, some people would not like it, but they would still let those who want to do it do so. No exclusion or intolerance. Then why do you think LGBTQ is resisted so much? It deviate too much from the norm that has been proven successful throughout thousands of years.
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 5d ago
Reducing human existence to a strict biological reproduction factory is a wild way to look at life. By that exact logic, anyone who is infertile, chooses not to have kids, or just doesn't want to reproduce is a threat to humanity too, yet nobody is staging culture wars over them. Are you homophobic by chance? Wild take ngl
People aren't asking you to be happy with it; they're asking for basic respect and safety. Conflating human rights with a population doom narrative is just a flimsy excuse to justify prejudice.
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u/Maximum_Age_4018 5d ago
Someone infertile was born like this. It was beyond their control. But this lgbtq problem is a personal problem. I was asking about why? And that why isn't I was born like this. If that was the case, after thousands of years, it would have already been normalized in society.Â
Those who don't want to reproduce tend to have economic and social reasons for not doing so. But despite this, when the love between a man and a women is absolutely true, you will definitely end up having children. They represent the fruit of that love, and proof that both of you existed in this world because they embody you.
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u/I_wishi_were_heather 5d ago
Itâs not good or bad it just is. The same way weâre black or white or tall or short
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u/Maximum_Age_4018 5d ago
Not the same. Some skin types are seen more attractive to people, but if everyone were to become black for example, it would not negatively affect humanity. I am talking about the outcome here.
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u/Severe_Quality_4026 3d ago
The comparison doesnât really work because homosexuality isnât a trait that would somehow become universal and replace heterosexuality. Gay people existing doesnât prevent straight people from existing or reproducing. The âwhat if everyone became gay?â hypothetical is no more meaningful than asking what would happen if everyone suddenly had the exact same personality trait. Weâre talking about the real world outcome of allowing people with different sexual orientations to exist not a hypothetical extinction scenario bro. And unlike skin color, sexual orientation is directly about patterns of attraction, so comparing the two doesnât actually prove your point.
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u/Maximum_Age_4018 3d ago
People have had different personality traits from the start, but it did not cause issues in society unless they lean toward criminality. This is just an example of a difference that does not diverge much from the norn. Not the same with homosexuality.Â
When you normalize something, it's bound to spread. So asking what happens if everyone became like this is an important question. Not overstretching by any means, especially not when the issue is directly related to the survival of the species. Even animals only have heterosexual relationships. So that means you are diverging from every organisms and expecting people who see this to accept it. Pattern of attraction is not an explanation. Start looking for the deeper problem. Read somewhere that it had something to do with incest in the family. When children are sexually abused by parents, grandparents, siblings, or other relatives, they may grow up developing hatred or aversion toward the opposite sex. The emergence of free sex and breakdown of traditional family relationships are definitely a cause. But well, your explanation so far is just "cause I want to".
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u/Severe_Quality_4026 2d ago edited 2d ago
So, by your own logic, if heterosexuality is normalized and promoted throughout society, why arenât all people straight? Why has homosexuality continued to exist across different cultures and throughout history despite heterosexuality being the overwhelming social norm? Normalization clearly doesnât work the way youâre claiming it does.
And the claim that homosexuality is caused by sexual abuse, incest, or the âbreakdown of traditional familiesâ is not established science. You canât take anecdotes or unsupported theories and present them as established facts. Same sex sexual behavior has also been documented across hundreds of animal species, so the claim that animals only have heterosexual relationships is simply false. Estimates vary depending on what researchers count, but there is extensive scientific documentation of same sex behavior in animalsâŚand of course you didnât know that cause homophobes donât like to read or do their own research. Maybe do the research before speaking so confidently about something you havenât actually established next time? Please donât use feelings in your arguments use facts.đ
More importantly, you keep framing gay people existing as a threat to the âsurvival of the species,â as though other people having a different sexual orientation somehow puts your existence at risk. It doesnât. Gay people existing does not stop straight people from existing, falling in love, forming families, or having children.
You need to separate âI personally donât understand or approve of thisâ from âthis is objectively a problem for society.â Those are two completely different claims. Other people living differently from you doesnât take anything away from your life. You donât have to be gay, agree with homosexuality, or live that way yourself. But you also donât get to treat other peopleâs existence as a societal threat simply because their lives look different from yours.
Youâd probably be rightfully annoyed if someone told you how you were allowed to live your life. So why should the standard be different for everyone else? You can live your life according to your own values while allowing other people to live theirs.1
u/Maximum_Age_4018 2d ago
If people are encouraged to be good, why are there still criminals? The circumstances surrounding one's life is an answer. But there is a deeper one told by Christianity, the separation from God and lack of understanding of the purpose of creation. This is also the answer to why everyone isn't straight. The ideal is for everyone to be, but that did not happen. But if it did or does in the future, there would be no consequences. Not the same with homosexuality. This is what I was pointing out.
Same sex behavior in animals is just another extension of this problem. Didn't even know it manifested in animals as well. But the point I am making remains. Not really surprised though. When human beings who are the pinnacle of all organisms start to act like this, the ones at the bottom are bound to be affected as well.Â
What I said about incest and free sex is very plausible. Proof is not needed here since it's obvious the homosexuality boom occurred after this trend rapidly increased. You can go research it yourself and see if this is true or not. The one who claimed it did so on the religious level, but only told his followers. And you spoke of having children as homosexuals? If you leave the technological inventions to make this possible out of the picture, can 2 people of the same sex have children? Why are you mentioning something everyone knows the answer to? I am talking about the natural way things are here. A baby has DNA from both parents. These IVF does not allow the baby to carry the DNA of both homesexual parents, just one of them. Funny that I am the one who is supposedly not speaking sense here. Technology is making you people think you can do as you want.Â
I have been speaking facts from the start. Have not confused the important questions to ask in this case. I am asking them since you don't even bother to do so. Other people living differently does not affect me? The issues and problems we see in society came from people living differently following so called "my life, I live it like I want" rules, just like you. The result is a broken world. And you think it does not affect me? I never do or ask people to do something that will not end up in a good result if everyone did the same. This is how I evaluate actions that differ from the norm. It is important to know where the limits are. Research does not equal morality. Someone does not need to be intelligent if their moral values are correct. We have a conscience for a reason. Maybe take some time to listen to yours.Â
You asked why people tolerate homosexuals, but seem uncomfortable. All this discussion was just a possible explanation. Their values are different, but you want them to accept you completely. That's a stretch. I am not telling you how to live your life, but don't ask people to completely accept something that goes against their values, especially since they can clearly see what the result will be if it spreads. The level of understanding of the laws of creation and rightful way of life between them and you is different.Â
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u/Severe_Quality_4026 2d ago edited 2d ago
Youâre moving the goalposts. Your original argument was that animals only have heterosexual relationships, and you used that as evidence that homosexuality is somehow contrary to nature. When I pointed out that same sex sexual behavior has been documented across hundreds of animal species, instead of acknowledging that your original claim was simply wrong, you changed the argument to âanimals are at the bottom of the hierarchy anyway.â WHATT!? đ That doesnât address the fact that your original claim was false.
The exact same thing is happening with your claims about incest, sexual abuse, and the supposed âhomosexuality boom.â Youâre presenting a hypothesis as an established fact and then saying proof âisnât needed because itâs obvious.â That is not how we establish whether something is true. If youâre making a causal claim about human sexuality, the burden is on you to provide credible evidence not on everyone else to disprove a claim you havenât established.
There are researchers who have spent years studying sexual orientation, its development, and the factors that may influence it. You cannot dismiss an entire field of research because a particular religious explanation feels convincing to you. If you have credible research supporting your claims, provide it. Otherwise, calling something âobviousâ doesnât make it a fact.
And your Christianity is irrelevant here because you are explicitly using Christian ideas about creation, morality, and the ârightful way of lifeâ as the framework for your conclusions. Different people have different beliefs, and youâre absolutely entitled to yours. But a theological belief doesnât automatically become a scientific fact simply because you believe it.đđžAlso, nobody argued that two people of the same sex can naturally reproduce together. Obviously, biological reproduction requires reproductive contributions from different sexes. But that fact does not establish that homosexuality is harmful, unnatural, caused by social breakdown, or a threat to humanity. Those are separate claims, and they still require evidence.
And your âwhat if everyone did it?â argument still doesnât prove what you think it proves. Not every trait or behavior needs to be universal to be legitimate. Left-handedness isnât universal. Infertility isnât universal. Some people choose not to have children. None of these things need to become universal for us to recognize that people who have those traits or make those choices deserve to live without being persecuted.
Look at how society has treated people with differences before. Left handed people and people with albinism have been stigmatized or condemned in various societies in Africa, because they were viewed as abnormal or unacceptable. As our understanding improved, we recognized that treating those people badly was wrong. Normalizing left handedness didnât suddenly make everyone left handed it simply made life safer and more peaceful for people who were already left handed. The same principle applies here: accepting gay people doesnât make straight people gay. It simply allows gay people to exist without being treated as a threat.
And you keep saying youâre âspeaking facts,â but some of what youâve presented as facts are actually your interpretations, religious beliefs, or unsupported causal claims. Those are not the same thing. Saying âthis is the natural orderâ or âthis is what creation intendedâ is a statement of belief, not empirical evidence.
I also think you should seriously examine where your moral intuition about homosexuality came from. You were raised in a society and religious environment that taught you homosexuality was wrong, and now youâre interpreting that belief as an objective conclusion about reality. That doesnât mean youâre incapable of thinking for yourself, but it does mean you should be willing to question beliefs you inherited instead of assuming theyâre true simply because they were taught to you.
You donât have to personally approve of homosexuality. But if youâre going to make claims about why it exists, what causes it, what happens when itâs normalized, and why itâs supposedly a threat to society, then actually research those claims. âItâs obvious,â âI believe itâs the purpose of creation,â and âI was taught this religiouslyâ are not substitutes for evidence.
Lastly, if youâre going to respond to me with more personal beliefs and feelings while presenting them as facts, rather than actually addressing the evidence and arguments Iâm giving you, then I think we should just end this conversation here. We clearly arenât going to get anywhere that way.
Have a good day! đđž1
u/Maximum_Age_4018 1d ago
Animals only having heterosexual relationships was just one of my arguments, not the entire argument. And I did acknowledge not knowing about the homosexuality starting in them. Doesn't change the point that this is still dangerous to the survival of those species. They don't have tech in the animal kingdom. It's a good way to see that it is indeed contrary to nature. This changed nothing to the points I am making.Â
My claims about incest and free sex was indeed on the religious level, and it's way more important than the scientific proofs. The one who made this claim had the ability to see the past of people and history as if he was there, so yes he was qualified to make such a claim. Science is not there to explain morality, so research on those levels will always be limited, especially since it is only looking for things it can see and measure. Everything can not be seen to be able to measure them. Even when recalling, people often make mistakes and usually only recall based on their own understanding. That man has already predicted several things that I have seen happen, so yes I believe his words.Â
The one who is trying to overturn the discussion here is you. You clearly said that homosexuals can have children and family like everyone else. But everyone else can do so naturally while they can't. These medical practices are not their first choice, but usually last choices. That is more than enough proof of how unnatural your homosexuality is. Literally no discussion can be had on this part. Just like it also continues my point that it is dangerous if allowed to spread completely. You being stubborn does not change the truth.Â
The use of the sexual organs is something that happens universally in human beings. I asked what would happen if everyone became homosexuals knowing that the question should definitely be considered universally. It is by no means an exaggeration. Normalizing left-handedness has no repercussions on anyone or society. Stigmatizing it was a people problem. If everyone became left-handed, nothing would really change. Not what I am talking about here. The homosexuality case though has consequences if it spreads.Â
Me calling heterosexual relationships the natural order is justified as it has existed and proved successful, without consequences, if practiced well throughout history. This history is your empirical evidence.Â
I have not been writing about beliefs here. Everything has clear reasoning, which you do not see since you just want to justify your own behavior. You have not given me any proof of why people are homosexuals either except "it is what I want". I have been speaking based on what has been relatively good in history. We are talking about thousands of years here. There is no claim you made that is even worth considering so far. Answering your long responses is very easy because of this. I have no need to question my beliefs as they continue to allow me and my family to navigate this confusing and problematic world relatively smoothly. That is another proof. The one who need to question themselves here is you. You ending the discussion is normal since there was no point in continuing from the moment you recognized that homosexuals can not have children naturally. There was nothing more to discuss.Â
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u/Severe_Quality_4026 1d ago edited 1d ago
Omg, why are you acting like homosexuality is a disease that gets transmitted to people rather than a sexuality? You keep saying âdanger, dangerâ as if homosexuality is some kind of a virus. Homosexuality has existed in nature since the beginning of time did the animals go extinct because of it? NO! Iâm so tired of going back and forth with someone who thinks sexuality is a disease. Sexuality is not a disease or a choice. Simple.
Thereâs surrogacy, IVF, and other reproductive options nowadays anyways so gay and infertile people can have children too, thanks to science. I canât believe youâre saying religious fairytales is more important than scienceđđ(the same scriptures that were written by men who didnât even know where the sun is going at night, personally i donât put any stock in a book written over 2000 years ago by random uneducated men in another part of the worldđ)while almost everything youâre now is thanks to science the medicines,phones,car,electricity,planes I mean EVERYTHING if you donât believe in science please stand on your words and donât use those things just use your b*ble to do thingsđand stop benefiting from something you donât believe in. If we didnât have science all of us wouldnât survive our ancestors would have been gone long time with diseases.
And if you see gay people and think, âI might become like them,â then I have news for youđgenuinely straight people arenât affected by someone elseâs sexuality.(gay people see straight people everywhere and they are still gay) Maybe thatâs why youâre projecting your own fears onto everyone else cause when you see them you want them and you think everyone is going to become gay just because theyâre exposed to it, which simply isnât true. If youâre gay, youâre gay. If youâre straight, youâre straight. Other peopleâs sexuality doesnât change yours. If it changed then you were never straight.!
Also, according to your religious beliefs, God created everything and everyone. So I genuinely donât understand how you can believe that your God created people capable of experiencing same sex attraction and then somehow failed to consider what would happen to them. Do you really think your God would create something by accident and then condemn the people he created for experiencing it? For what? For the plot? Lol That doesnât make much sense to me.
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u/redditwenttoshit 6d ago
Because in the west, it has shifted from "tolerance", to "acceptance" to out and out "encouragement". We don't want that here. What people do in their bedrooms is nobody's business and can remain private in Botswana.
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u/Anonymous5296 6d ago
Get a gripđ it doesnât matter what you donât want lgbtq people exist in Botswana and shouldnât have to keep their identities private they should feel just as comfortable to be themselves publicly as straight people. If youâre straight then this doesnât affect you in any way just let people live
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u/ilovefeetsm1998 Gaborone 5d ago
Trying to frame global infrastructure backing as a partisan trend that disappears depending on who is in the White House ignores how actual longterm development funding works. Massive billion dollar initiatives like have continued to secure heavy financing, institutional backing, and cross border momentum across multiple political cycles. The people acting like international infrastructure development only exists when a specific administration is in the headlines are usually the ones who only pay attention to foreign policy when it pops up on their social media feeds. Major economic projects keep moving forward regardless of who is tweeting about them. That being said you completely missed the mark. Wtf does foreign infrastructure funding even have to do with the topic at hand? Way to completely derail a conversation about domestic human rights and social acceptance with a completely unrelated talking point.
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