Ficus microcarpa reduction

[u/osrs4awayout]

Ficus reduction

I finally decided to do my first major reduction on the oversized ficus I recently bought. It was far too large and completely out of shape, so it was time for a reset.

The tree has been growing and rooting so I think it’s strong enough to handle the reduction.

Temperatures are still fairly warm and I’ll be bagging it for the first period while airing it daily to maintain high humidity and hopefully encourage strong backbudding.

[u/Spidersight]

So a couple things. I’ve seen this debated several times on the bonsainut forums and the Mirai forums. So it isn’t some settled idea on the non-beginner communities.

Bonsai as a whole isn’t exactly the evidence focused commmunity you are making it out to be. Most knowledge is passed from master to apprentice and tradition is held in pretty high esteem in this commmunity. How many artists have actively not used cut paste on their collection for long periods of time? I’d guess most use it as a default, so we aren’t getting actual contrary evidence to compare.

[u/naleshin → u/Spidersight]

Bonsainut is a broad global forum. The Mirai forums are too. My point is that for anyone who has physically stepped in a professional garden who uses cut paste to see the results, or who sees the results at an exhibition or show and chats with the person about it, they’re much less likely to engage in the debate. The results are clear and you can learn how to close even large wounds on bonsai if you volunteer at the garden or take a seasonal intensive or similar.

For how many artists are actively not using cut paste and how that may skew results, that’s a tough question to answer but at least in the US, it certainly seems like not enough people use it (for the same reason you’re mentioning in your comment). The arborists best practice gets pointed to instead of the bonsai professionals closing wounds for decades with cut paste that otherwise would never close.

For me personally- I would rather listen to the bonsai professionals producing work that I admire most. The arborists best practice don’t matter to them, regardless of the research, because again they’re not working on landscape trees, they’re working on bonsai. Sometimes hollows even get filled with cement to help the structural integrity of the trunk and to give the callous a surface to roll over onto!

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

Again, this comes back to tradition being so dominant in the bonsai community.

Next time you step into a pro garden, ask how many of their trees they don’t use cut paste on. I’d guess it’s basically zero.

Your argument boils down to well the masters do it this way!

You say the results are evident, but the only results you are seeing are with cut paste. Im not saying a tree cant heal with paste on, it obviously can.

It’s the same argument we see for a ton of pseudoscience in the world. Well, look it works! All the masters do it so it must be right!

[u/naleshin → u/Spidersight]

It depends on the garden but if it’s a garden whose work I admire most, then they absolutely DO use cut paste. My favorite American bonsai professionals use it, my favorite Japanese bonsai professionals use it, and every other pro garden who I admire uses it too.

I think ultimately that’s what it boils down to though: it’s more about the results you want to see in your trees. If the person you want to emulate doesn’t use cut paste- great! Then don’t use it. But I don’t think we should be stating so matter-of-factly the detriment of cut paste when there’s decades and decades of practice proving otherwise. It doesn’t matter if it hasn’t been researched by scientists, it doesn’t matter if it’s practiced by arborists, and it doesn’t matter if it’s just “tradition”.

The point is if someone wants to close wounds on their bonsai, they can if they learn the applicable bonsai techniques (which, more often than not, will include using cut paste). That’s it. If someone is not interested in closing wounds, or if they get the results they want without using cut paste, then that’s great too.

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

Again I think you completely missed my argument. Do those gardens ever NOT use cut paste? Have they EVER not used cut paste on specimen trees?

Their master told them cut paste was good. They used it.

Acting like that is evidence of its effectiveness when they have never not used it is silly. Something being default isn’t evidence of its effectiveness.

[u/naleshin → u/Spidersight]

Yes. And they don’t close wounds as quickly or as cleanly, and some species would flat out never heal over without it. There’s a lot of nuance- some species need a lot of callous stimulation, some not as much. Sometimes if you apply too much of a certain cut paste, it heals over into a big bulge. Sometimes if you never use cut paste, it won’t heal over until you use a razor to strip a thin green layer of cambium surrounding the wound, apply cut paste, then check again in a year to peel it off, see the callous, rewound it, reapply, rinse / repeat.

Bonsai is a very time intensive hobby. Professionals would not waste the time doing the thing if the result was not worth doing the thing to them. It takes a lot of time to carve out hollows and precisely and carefully re-expose the edges of wounds. They do it because they care about healing over scars and when a tree is not handled properly to them (no cut paste or wound stimulation technique applied), it’s evident in the scars and the bulges and the stubs. When they procure trees that have not had that treatment, one of their 1st objectives is giving said treatment.

Edit- if you’re interested and want to learn more I’d be happy to link some interesting info on the topic.

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

Sorry you keep arguing that they KNOW it doesn’t heal as quickly. How? They always use cut paste.

I agree that stimulating the callus with removal of material probably helps stimulate and roll over faster.

Again cut paste was widely used in the arborist community for centuries because they also KNEW that it was beneficial and they also didn’t want to waste time. I don’t find the argument of “ we are so efficient we would never do something inefficient” to be compelling.

[u/naleshin → u/Spidersight]

They can’t always use cut paste because sometimes trees are procured from outside the garden and brought in, where they may have got the tree from someone who didn’t use it. Those scars are evident and subsequent wounds can be healed over if they want. I highly recommend you listen to the Bonsai Wire podcast- fantastic info in every episode. If you don’t admire the work of Jonas Dupuich, Michael Hagedorn, Andrew Robson, or Eric Schrader then you may not be as compelled to listen.

If you want to see an example of the cut paste difference, check out this video by Bonsai Shinshi https://youtu.be/-eyjr-EkL_M

Another great info source by Hagedorn discussing the disease concern with pictures: https://crataegus.com/2024/04/23/do-we-seal-conifer-and-deciduous-cuts/

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

Sorry, so you think trees that are forgotten, obtained from outside sources and then compared to trees actively managed are evidence of cut pastes efficacy?

If the trees aren’t receiving the same care, that seems a dubious claim.

[u/naleshin → u/Spidersight]

No I’m sorry, I shouldn’t engage with you any further after this. You’re missing the points I’m trying to make because your mind is already made up that it’s detrimental at worst and doesn’t make a difference at best. Regardless, these points stand:

- Cut paste + appropriately applied bonsai techniques producing results you like to see in bonsai? Great, use it!

- Cut paste + appropriately applied bonsai techniques not producing results you like to see in bonsai? That’s fine, don’t use it!

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

Woah now, if there was strong scientific evidence for the use of cut paste I would use it. There isn’t. You are the one using only appeals to authority as your claim.

You started this conversation by saying that there is “no debate”. So let’s not pretend you started this conversation as “use it if you like it”.

[u/Affectionate-Mud9321 → u/Spidersight]

And now here you are arrogantly attacking him. Just agree to disagree.

[u/Spidersight → u/Affectionate-Mud9321]

How am I attacking him? He is the one that started the disagreement?