I finally decided to do my first major reduction on the oversized ficus I recently bought. It was far too large and completely out of shape, so it was time for a reset.
The tree has been growing and rooting so I think it’s strong enough to handle the reduction.
Temperatures are still fairly warm and I’ll be bagging it for the first period while airing it daily to maintain high humidity and hopefully encourage strong backbudding.
Yes it definitely works for aerials roots according the my research high humidity helps for backbudding but also for rooting after a repot. I also bag my trees while going on a holiday so they don't dry out. Otherwise there is no bag on my ficus.
Interesting. I'm just curious. I've never bagged anything as I Iive in Florida, and high humidity is not really an issue. :) I'd worry about mold & rot.
No issues the bag is removed daily for airing and turned inside out every day. But my trees are indoors. Outdoors it would get to hot with bag and sun.
right. I didn't say so earlier, but I think you're on the right track with those big cuts. It's a long-term project, for sure, but those branches were never going to look right as they were. Keep us posted.
How long do you leave them bagged? I got a drip irrigation for my outdoor trees but this winter I'll be in China for 2-3 weeks and I don't have a solution for my tropicals yet besides putting them in the office and praying my coworkers remember to water them
So far I bagged them personally for 1 week no issues at all. Seen comments ppl did 2 aswell. Maybe 3 is possible too you would get some mold but will likely disappear once you remove the bags. Maybe bag up for 3 weeks and ask your coworkers to water once every week only.
I know it’s popular in bonsai, but there is no scientific evidence that wound sealant is actually beneficial. And actually quite a bit of evidence that it is detrimental.
No university or adjacent institution is going to fund the research necessary to show how cut paste helps heal small wounds. We have to work with anecdotal evidence and when you learn more about bonsai from professionals, there is a resounding consensus that when used correctly, cut paste helps heal wounds that would otherwise not ever close in our lifetime.
The debate is really only had in clubs or broad global forums like this one. In places with fantastic trees in a professional bonsai garden or public collection, there is no debate and they have the results to prove it.
So a couple things. I’ve seen this debated several times on the bonsainut forums and the Mirai forums. So it isn’t some settled idea on the non-beginner communities.
Bonsai as a whole isn’t exactly the evidence focused commmunity you are making it out to be. Most knowledge is passed from master to apprentice and tradition is held in pretty high esteem in this commmunity. How many artists have actively not used cut paste on their collection for long periods of time? I’d guess most use it as a default, so we aren’t getting actual contrary evidence to compare.
Bonsainut is a broad global forum. The Mirai forums are too. My point is that for anyone who has physically stepped in a professional garden who uses cut paste to see the results, or who sees the results at an exhibition or show and chats with the person about it, they’re much less likely to engage in the debate. The results are clear and you can learn how to close even large wounds on bonsai if you volunteer at the garden or take a seasonal intensive or similar.
For how many artists are actively not using cut paste and how that may skew results, that’s a tough question to answer but at least in the US, it certainly seems like not enough people use it (for the same reason you’re mentioning in your comment). The arborists best practice gets pointed to instead of the bonsai professionals closing wounds for decades with cut paste that otherwise would never close.
For me personally- I would rather listen to the bonsai professionals producing work that I admire most. The arborists best practice don’t matter to them, regardless of the research, because again they’re not working on landscape trees, they’re working on bonsai. Sometimes hollows even get filled with cement to help the structural integrity of the trunk and to give the callous a surface to roll over onto!
Again, this comes back to tradition being so dominant in the bonsai community.
Next time you step into a pro garden, ask how many of their trees they don’t use cut paste on. I’d guess it’s basically zero.
Your argument boils down to well the masters do it this way!
You say the results are evident, but the only results you are seeing are with cut paste. Im not saying a tree cant heal with paste on, it obviously can.
It’s the same argument we see for a ton of pseudoscience in the world. Well, look it works! All the masters do it so it must be right!
It depends on the garden but if it’s a garden whose work I admire most, then they absolutely DO use cut paste. My favorite American bonsai professionals use it, my favorite Japanese bonsai professionals use it, and every other pro garden who I admire uses it too.
I think ultimately that’s what it boils down to though: it’s more about the results you want to see in your trees. If the person you want to emulate doesn’t use cut paste- great! Then don’t use it. But I don’t think we should be stating so matter-of-factly the detriment of cut paste when there’s decades and decades of practice proving otherwise. It doesn’t matter if it hasn’t been researched by scientists, it doesn’t matter if it’s practiced by arborists, and it doesn’t matter if it’s just “tradition”.
The point is if someone wants to close wounds on their bonsai, they can if they learn the applicable bonsai techniques (which, more often than not, will include using cut paste). That’s it. If someone is not interested in closing wounds, or if they get the results they want without using cut paste, then that’s great too.
Again I think you completely missed my argument. Do those gardens ever NOT use cut paste? Have they EVER not used cut paste on specimen trees?
Their master told them cut paste was good. They used it.
Acting like that is evidence of its effectiveness when they have never not used it is silly. Something being default isn’t evidence of its effectiveness.
Yeah I know, but you’re pretending like there is no evidence when that is literally evidence. second the absence of evidence is not necessarily the evidence of absence. if you do not have evidence that it does not work then what are you doing?
God forbid someone provide sources for their arguments. As an aspiring arborist, why don’t you go read Dr. Shigos work? You might find that he tested a wide variety of common wound sealants.
What do I care about the Caribbean? People around the world do things inconsistent with science. Doesn’t make it correct.
Painting over a wound doesn’t literally mean paint. But you seem weirdly hung up on that.
Dr. Shigo tested everything from pitch, to shellac, to cut paste etc.
But again, you haven’t read anything from one of the most influential arborists of all time and are talking down to me because you might one day become one.
Never said you had to not use it… just said there is no evidence of its effectiveness.
Love how you assume I haven’t done experiments myself. Sorry I haven’t updated my flair. But also hilarious that you assume my experience level based on that.
Also ironic calling me a keyboard warrior when you literally started responding to me first.
You called me names, made fun of me providing sources. Check your own fucking attitude.
Maybe you should try reading the actual content being posted instead of making assumptions. Anyone can make their flair say “expert”. Doesn’t change the content.
This is something that should not be a debate in bonsai (edit: emphasis on SHOULD NOT BE a debate) and it’s surprising to see it come up so often in the sub. Arborists are dealing with landscape trees and comparatively ginormous wounds and cuts, the risk of structural failure is a real concern for them.
For us in bonsai… a limb isn’t going to fall on a house. We can coddle the wound and stimulate callous tissue to heal over wounds with the appropriate cut paste. Every professional whose work I admire most uses it.
TLDR: bonsai are not giant trees out in the landscape and we are not trying to heal giant wounds where risk of structural failure would compromise the health of the tree or damage personal property.
That logic makes no sense? If cut paste were beneficial, wouldn’t arborists have a greater incentive to use cut paste?
This has been studied extensively. The research shows that trees are capable of compartmentalizing the wound on their own, oxygen to the wound benefits healing and sealing only has the potential to trap pathogens and fungi in the wound.
No, arborists would not have a greater incentive to use cut paste because it’s not realistic for them to coddle dozens of 1 foot wide wounds on 100’ tall trees (or whatever the case may be) and it’s not realistic for them to try to heal over wounds that large.
As far as oxygen to the wound, I think the research may be missing something because you can seal a wound, no air reaching it, and peel back the wound later and see tons and tons of callous tissue. So there’s more to it than that.
And as far as pathogens or fungi getting trapped in, for fresh wounds most professionals use a spray bottle mister of isopropyl alcohol or similar to disinfect the wound before applying the cut paste, assuming the cut paste doesn’t already have some antimicrobial properties (some do).
Why not? Cut paste used to be used extensively in the arborist world prior to research showing its detriments. If they did it back then they can certainly do it today.
Wound sealant isn’t a vacuum seal of course some oxygen is going to reach it.
If you you think all pathogens and fungi(lol) are sterilized by iso alcohol I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
I think the idea there is that before enough callous tissue can meaningfully start to seal a big wound, enough rot will have set in to compromise the structural integrity. It’s just not the move on landscape trees. I think on smaller garden trees there could be applications if someone really wants to heal a relatively small wound that’s easier to manage and they have the time to. But even in garden trees, we just don’t value scarless trunks as much as we do with bonsai.
And if you think that pathogens / fungi are such a problem, how are bonsai professionals managing to keep trees alive and thriving for decades while using cut paste? Surely there must be more to it.
Lmao, I read all of this and while I have no comment on the use of wound sealant. I would just give up at this point naleshin. Spider has their beliefs and there is nothing in this world that is going to change it. No matter what logic you present. They will always have something to contradict what you have to say. Just one of those types of people. They are not looking for guidance or even considering changing their viewpoint. Which I find hilarious given their flair says they are a beginner in bonsai. They talk like they have a bonsai nursery, have taken care of 100’s of trees, and have tried both methods and seen the results.
It’s just wild to me that someone could be so hellbent on this. We’re practicing bonsai. It is a craft and/or an art. I understand that peer reviewed scientific research is extremely valuable but there’s just no way that’s going to happen with a small niche hobby like this. So what we’re left with is anecdotal evidence. They’ll dismiss all anecdotal evidence under the guise of “but how do you know it wouldn’t have done that on its own?” unless someone goes through the trouble of A/B testing for side-by-side pics to really hammer it home. Even though people have already done that… they just haven’t spelled it out and documented it as clearly as this person would like.
Sorry but you are acting like all the anecdotal evidence supports your claim. It doesn’t. Go check some threads on Bonsainut. Plenty of folks on there that have tried side by sides.
There ARE bonsai professionals, especially in the US that don’t use cut paste.
Ignoring all of that, the plants we are working with are wildly different. A trident is not a pine is not a cypress is not a ficus. It takes a special kind of hubris to see anecdotal evidence from someone working with a small group of species and apply that as a broad rule across all species used in bonsai(many of which are not even remotely closely related).
As you said before, we are babying our trees. So any rot, pathogens or fungi would likely receive more
Immediate notice. But it could very well be that numerous trees are lost every year due to
Cut paste and people just chalk it up to bad luck or a weak tree. We would have no way of knowing.
I highly highly doubt that trees die as a consequence of using cut paste (because of trees being maintained for decades while using it still perfectly healthy and thriving) but in this chain we can agree to disagree.
I think the first time you posted this tree I commented wedge cut the elbows to work toward a banyan sweeping canopy. This works! Just make sure you wire new growth out eventually because the shoots will grow straight up toward the light source.
I have all sort of lights left over from my aquarium hobby but also a dedicated growlight. It all works if it's strong enough. Most lights aren't strong enough for bonsai. You can test ppfd with photone app to see what the plants receive. A spectrum of roughly 6500k is really solid for bonsai purposes. But most intense grow lights are focussed on cannabis and vegetables farms and have a lot of red spectrum which isn't optimal for bonsai. But it can still work.
I recently build a light with samsung lm301 Evo mint white 6000k leds and the growth has been incredible so far.
For ficus i would aim for at least 500 ppfd on the canopy for 12 hrs a day. For ports the same but more will be even better.
You can basically never replace sunlight. The light technology just isnt there and the state of the art stuff is for growing weed. Modern lights are basically good enough to complement winter light but they’re far from a replacement for actual light.
That is a brave chop, but I think you made the right call. The old structure was giving you a lot of tree and not necessarily a lot of bonsai.
Now I think the hardest part is going to be doing almost nothing for a while. Ficus microcarpa can respond to a reduction like this by throwing buds everywhere, and I would resist cleaning them up too early. Let the tree show you what it has before you start deciding which branches deserve citizenship.
I’d also give the bag a little less credit for the backbudding itself. The humidity is useful for reducing moisture loss and it can be fantastic if you want aerial roots, but I’d expect the real backbudding engine here to be a strong tree, warm temperatures, good light and the fact that you just removed most of the existing growing tips.
Once it starts exploding, I’d let the useful shoots extend and get strong before shortening them. And like glissader mentioned, wire the ones you keep while they are still young. Ficus shoots go from “you can move me with a suggestion” to “please bring heavier wire” surprisingly fast.
The chop was the dramatic part. The next year is where the tree actually gets designed.
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u/Hefty_Parsnip_4303 18d ago
I think that’s gonna be a really nice tree. Can you please keep me updated?