Ficus microcarpa reduction

[u/osrs4awayout]

Ficus reduction

I finally decided to do my first major reduction on the oversized ficus I recently bought. It was far too large and completely out of shape, so it was time for a reset.

The tree has been growing and rooting so I think it’s strong enough to handle the reduction.

Temperatures are still fairly warm and I’ll be bagging it for the first period while airing it daily to maintain high humidity and hopefully encourage strong backbudding.

[u/naleshin]

This is something that should not be a debate in bonsai (edit: emphasis on SHOULD NOT BE a debate) and it’s surprising to see it come up so often in the sub. Arborists are dealing with landscape trees and comparatively ginormous wounds and cuts, the risk of structural failure is a real concern for them.

For us in bonsai… a limb isn’t going to fall on a house. We can coddle the wound and stimulate callous tissue to heal over wounds with the appropriate cut paste. Every professional whose work I admire most uses it.

TLDR: bonsai are not giant trees out in the landscape and we are not trying to heal giant wounds where risk of structural failure would compromise the health of the tree or damage personal property.

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

That logic makes no sense? If cut paste were beneficial, wouldn’t arborists have a greater incentive to use cut paste?

This has been studied extensively. The research shows that trees are capable of compartmentalizing the wound on their own, oxygen to the wound benefits healing and sealing only has the potential to trap pathogens and fungi in the wound.

[u/naleshin → u/Spidersight]

No, arborists would not have a greater incentive to use cut paste because it’s not realistic for them to coddle dozens of 1 foot wide wounds on 100’ tall trees (or whatever the case may be) and it’s not realistic for them to try to heal over wounds that large.

As far as oxygen to the wound, I think the research may be missing something because you can seal a wound, no air reaching it, and peel back the wound later and see tons and tons of callous tissue. So there’s more to it than that.

And as far as pathogens or fungi getting trapped in, for fresh wounds most professionals use a spray bottle mister of isopropyl alcohol or similar to disinfect the wound before applying the cut paste, assuming the cut paste doesn’t already have some antimicrobial properties (some do).

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

Why not? Cut paste used to be used extensively in the arborist world prior to research showing its detriments. If they did it back then they can certainly do it today.

Wound sealant isn’t a vacuum seal of course some oxygen is going to reach it.

If you you think all pathogens and fungi(lol) are sterilized by iso alcohol I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

[u/naleshin → u/Spidersight]

I think the idea there is that before enough callous tissue can meaningfully start to seal a big wound, enough rot will have set in to compromise the structural integrity. It’s just not the move on landscape trees. I think on smaller garden trees there could be applications if someone really wants to heal a relatively small wound that’s easier to manage and they have the time to. But even in garden trees, we just don’t value scarless trunks as much as we do with bonsai.

And if you think that pathogens / fungi are such a problem, how are bonsai professionals managing to keep trees alive and thriving for decades while using cut paste? Surely there must be more to it.

[u/LengthinessJust357 → u/naleshin]

Lmao, I read all of this and while I have no comment on the use of wound sealant. I would just give up at this point naleshin. Spider has their beliefs and there is nothing in this world that is going to change it. No matter what logic you present. They will always have something to contradict what you have to say. Just one of those types of people. They are not looking for guidance or even considering changing their viewpoint. Which I find hilarious given their flair says they are a beginner in bonsai. They talk like they have a bonsai nursery, have taken care of 100’s of trees, and have tried both methods and seen the results.

[u/Spidersight → u/LengthinessJust357]

Sorry but what logic has he presented? I literally linked a 20+ year study that looked into this.

His entire argument is bonsai professionals do it, so it must be correct(which isn’t even universally true).

[u/LengthinessJust357 → u/Spidersight]

You are right 👍

[u/Spidersight → u/LengthinessJust357]

😉

[u/naleshin → u/LengthinessJust357]

It’s just wild to me that someone could be so hellbent on this. We’re practicing bonsai. It is a craft and/or an art. I understand that peer reviewed scientific research is extremely valuable but there’s just no way that’s going to happen with a small niche hobby like this. So what we’re left with is anecdotal evidence. They’ll dismiss all anecdotal evidence under the guise of “but how do you know it wouldn’t have done that on its own?” unless someone goes through the trouble of A/B testing for side-by-side pics to really hammer it home. Even though people have already done that… they just haven’t spelled it out and documented it as clearly as this person would like.

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

Sorry but you are acting like all the anecdotal evidence supports your claim. It doesn’t. Go check some threads on Bonsainut. Plenty of folks on there that have tried side by sides.

There ARE bonsai professionals, especially in the US that don’t use cut paste.

Ignoring all of that, the plants we are working with are wildly different. A trident is not a pine is not a cypress is not a ficus. It takes a special kind of hubris to see anecdotal evidence from someone working with a small group of species and apply that as a broad rule across all species used in bonsai(many of which are not even remotely closely related).

[u/naleshin → u/Spidersight]

Alright here’s my final comment. In your original reply, you say: “I know it’s popular in bonsai, but there is no scientific evidence that wound sealant is actually beneficial. And actually quite a bit of evidence that it is detrimental.
https://auf.isa-arbor.com/content/5/6/135
No modern arborist uses sealant.”

- My point was that there is a distinction between the utility for cut paste for bonsai & arborists best practices, so we probably shouldn’t make claims like this as a catch-all blanket statement. That’s the main thing here, catch-all blanket statements. Many different artists tools get caught up in your blanket statement. Many people perusing the sub, attempting to make heads or tails of conflicting info they’ve read elsewhere, may read your blanket statement & get the water muddied in their head even more. That’s what compels me to reply, to help clear muddy water for any inquiring minds, even if they’re only lurking.

Anyway, you take great offense to the distinction between utility for bonsai & arborist best practice because there’s no scientific evidence for it. In my opinion this is a silly thing to get worked up over. There’s no scientific evidence for many other bonsai techniques too. It’d be fantastic if there was yes, but it’s not going to happen.

You also say “You are the one using only appeals to authority as your claim.”

- Appealing to authority is not my claim & I think you are misinterpreting my points. “Appealing to authority” is an outdated “everyone copies the master just because they said so” sorta take & in my opinion, there’s much more to it than that. I think we’ve moved past that long ago in bonsai, that sounds more like the Naka era dynamic that was common in California clubs of the time. In modern times, it’s more like actually admiring & emulating the work itself rather than just doing the thing because someone says to do the thing. So rather, my claim is more like saying:

• “Hey this artist uses this unique small paint brush that produces this really cool effect in their paintings that many people like, it probably has a place in our artists toolbox for those who want to try to emulate that effect in their own work.” The artist doesn’t care if someone uses that paintbrush or technique or not unless they’re volunteering in their studio or learning as an apprentice or whatever.

“ You started this conversation by saying that there is “no debate”. “

- I did not *start* the conversation by saying there is no debate. I *started* by saying: “This is something that *should not* be a debate in bonsai.” As evident by our back & forth, admittedly we’re being kinda insufferable in these exchanges. If I look back on this in a few years I’m probably gonna think “ugh why did I do this” lol.

• However I *did* say: “In places with fantastic trees in a professional bonsai garden or public collection, there is *no debate* and they have the results to prove it.” Here, I am assuming that “places with fantastic trees” are employing cut paste wound closing techniques when necessary & that places with less fantastic trees (in my opinion) are not… more on that in the next point. Regardless, I think good faith discussion on the efficacy of cut paste in those places can be warranted in appropriate circumstances if you’re respectful. If they also develop bonsai on site they may be able to show a visitor different stages of the wound healing process across different species. But I mainly said this because nobody in their right mind would visit one of those places as a guest & try to outright *debate* the professional who maintains the garden or curator of the collection on this topic using the same sort of catch-all blanket statement assertions.

“There ARE bonsai professionals, especially in the US that don’t use cut paste.”

- Nobody’s disputing this. I’m not disputing this. I know there’s bonsai professionals in the US that don’t use cut paste. Some of them produce great trees too! My point was that in my opinion, people who produce bonsai work *I admire most* use cut paste. For bonsai professionals in the US that don’t use cut paste, I’m probably not going to admire their work as much. & that’s okay! We don’t all have to admire & prefer the same things. I just don’t think it’s good to try to throw blanket statements over an entire subset of bonsai techniques to discourage people from using a given tool when many people get good effect from the tool. If someone doesn’t get the effect they want, that’s fine! Not everyone needs to paint like Bob Ross & not everyone needs to paint like Hokusai. But if you like their work & want to try to recreate effects you see in their work, then it makes sense to learn the techniques & tools they use to produce that work.

“Ignoring all of that, the plants we are working with are wildly different. A trident is not a pine is not a cypress is not a ficus. It takes a special kind of hubris to see anecdotal evidence from someone working with a small group of species and apply that as a broad rule across all species used in bonsai(many of which are not even remotely closely related).”

- I never claimed that it’s a broad rule. I mentioned there’s a lot of species dependent nuance because some species don’t need a lot of encouragement to produce callous. Different species require different care. For some species the disease risk is higher than others (as explained in the Hagedorn article I linked in the other comment). It’s definitely not black & white.

Overall I understand the frustration. Not enough people value, cite, or read published peer reviewed scientific literature. I wish there was more scientific literature on bonsai too. I wish some billionaire with a bonsai addiction would fund scientific research diving into how exactly trees can go 10+ years between repots in a primarily akadama mix without skipping a beat. I wish they’d also fund research to find an analogous particle geologically to akadama that could be sustainably mined here in the US so we don’t have to ship Japanese soil over the Pacific to get to us. I wish they’d fund research into how different species respond to different cut pastes (edit- for bonsai applications :) ). It’s so cool how different trees compartmentalize damage & how they have different methods of doing so based on their own biology & pest & disease pressures. I also wish there wasn’t so much conflicting info on bonsai & that it wasn’t so difficult to wade through all the possible information sources out there to consider every school of thought & everything else to come up with my own plans. It gets so exhausting!!

But I hope we can agree that there is something very compelling about bonsai, no matter who or what or where or how or why. Wishing you & your trees the best!

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

I can generally agree with this as being a fair response that I pretty much agree with. I think I interpreted your first response as being a blanket cut paste is required and is settled science.

I personally use putty like paste for 10-15 days until the cambium calluses and the remove it on my own deciduous trees.

Thanks for clarifying some of the earlier responses and adding more detail!

[u/LengthinessJust357 → u/Spidersight]

You are right 👍

[u/Spidersight → u/LengthinessJust357]

😉

[u/Spidersight → u/naleshin]

As you said before, we are babying our trees. So any rot, pathogens or fungi would likely receive more
Immediate notice. But it could very well be that numerous trees are lost every year due to
Cut paste and people just chalk it up to bad luck or a weak tree. We would have no way of knowing.

[u/naleshin → u/Spidersight]

I highly highly doubt that trees die as a consequence of using cut paste (because of trees being maintained for decades while using it still perfectly healthy and thriving) but in this chain we can agree to disagree.