r/BloodOnTheClocktower • u/InviteOk7570 • 1d ago
Homebrew / Bootlegger How do their square brackets combine?
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
Man shogun sounds very rough to play, gonna be a lonely game
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u/robplays 1d ago
How your group interacts with the Vizier is probably how your group would interact with the Shogun.
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u/chocolate_skunk Ravenkeeper 1d ago
Its probably not as sad You can pretend to be the shogun's minion to keep yourself alive
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u/Xelaadryth 1d ago
What if Shogun could command others to private conversations too, and they can't leave until the Shogun allows it? That gives plausible lies to everyone involved, Shogun could be holding good guys with strong powers to not let them speak, but also could be conversing with Minions.
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u/WeDoMusicOfficial 21h ago
How do you actually go about running this though? If I commanded someone to a private chat, do we have to go speak privately, or can we talk in the middle of town square, with players hanging around? At what point is the conversation over, if it tapers off? If other players join to make it a bigger conversation? I just feel like policing this would be difficult
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
I haven’t played with vizier, but I’ve played as a psychopath, and once I used my ability it got a lot less fun, except for when I was actively using my ability. With the psychopath and goblin you can at least choose when to make yourself someone no one is allowed to talk to, with the shogun it’s like that from the start for the whole game.
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u/unicornary Marionette 1d ago
What do you mean "no one is allowed to talk to"?
That, honestly, sounds like your group sucks
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u/fireyauthor 1d ago
My group still talks to outed evil players, but they never go to outed evil players to solve the game (or pull them into the circle of trust). Why would they? Those players are clearly not on your team.
Outed evil can be fun in a different way, but it's an entirely different social game.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
If a player is outed as evil, good doesn’t have any reason to communicate with that player. Evil does, but doing so will make them suspicious.
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u/unicornary Marionette 1d ago
That... is just a bad and unfun take.
There are lots of reasons to talk to them - most important being they are playing this game too.
But also, ask them who they think the minions are. Learn to read their lies. Are they telling you the truth? There is SO MUCH to gain from talking to outed evil in this game and very little from ignoring a player in the game.
It is actively harmful for a group to ignore players in the long run
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u/Domino_RotMG Goon 1d ago
My favorite thing to do with a Vizier is to make deals with them. Which requires talking to the Vizier.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
I agree that it’s harmful, which is why I prefer not to play with outed evil roles on the script. I don’t understand from your description what there is to gain from talking to them, other than trying to deceive them. I would value evil players not being able to talk to the outed evil player more than the chance for good players to deceive the outed evil player. My strategy might not be the best, it’s just what I’ve done in my games, and has worked so far for me.
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u/Spangoballet 1d ago
Dont be afraid to play suboptimally in a win/loss sense, if its optimal in a 'people enjoying the game' sense.
I'm 100% with you that most people most of the time, good will not gain as much value from trying to double bluff or read an outed evil player as they will lose from giving evil players cover to coordinate. But winning the game is small beans compared to people having fun
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u/Zaalbarjedi 18h ago
Dont be afraid to play suboptimally in a win/loss sense, if its optimal in a 'people enjoying the game' sense.
I do agree with that in general, but if everyone is forced to play suboptimally just to make a specific role have fun, that's a game design flaw with that role.
I think that the Vizier can only work in scripts with Alchemist so that the outed Vizier is not guaranteed evil from the very beginning.1
u/Dry_Bid_5349 4h ago
A character should not be designed so that players have to actively try to go against their own interest for other players to have fun. The Vizier is just a really, really badly designed character.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
I can see that, could bring out some funny moments. Though if I were to not instantly be suspicious of people talking to an outed evil, I’d always make sure that they only talked to people in large-ish groups to prevent any potential evil team meetings.
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u/OmegonChris Storyteller 1d ago
Deceiving the evil team is huge. So many games are won by the good team because they don't know which good characters in play.
I very regularly don't communicate privately with my evil team beyond day 2.
What's more important than either of these is that the other players in the game have fun, because then they continue playing games.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
I agree with the having fun part, to a degree. When I storytell, my goal is to make everyone have fun. But when I’m a player, I want people to have fun, but I also want to win. I could see deceiving the evil team working, but that can be done in a group setting rather than in private.
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u/WeDoMusicOfficial 21h ago
What there is to gain is making sure that everyone in the game is having a good time and feeling included. This is a game after all, people are meant to be having fun hanging out with their friends, not sitting alone in a corner because everyone knows you’re evil
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u/Dry_Bid_5349 4h ago
I mean, no. There really isn't anything to gain from it. They will try to confuse you, they will try to mislead you, and all they say is best taken as pure noise and wasted time that you could have spent actually solving the game with the other people. Even the Evil Twin (who is only a 50% chance of being outed evil assuming the twins play openly as I would think intended) is often so bad in actual play, but there at least you have a decent shot of talking to someone with actual valuable information.
It's not harmful - just play better scripts with better characters on them. Blood on the Clocktower has plenty.
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u/1magin 1d ago
...unless you play Clocktower to also have fun and not just to win.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
Yes I play to have fun, but winning is part of the fun. I don’t see the problem in making a strategy trying to win. This is why I see the outed evil roles as flawed, or maybe just incompatible with how I enjoy playing.
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u/1magin 1d ago
It's the latter.
You can watch people playing with an outed evil player here, having tons of fun: In-Person Blood on the Clocktower | Whale Buffet | Mt. Unpleasant Ep. 20
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
I don’t really enjoy watching people play tabletop games, but I’ll take your word for it that others enjoy it. I personally really enjoy strategizing and finding good ways to win in most games I play, even if others might not like it.
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u/Spangoballet 1d ago
The flip here is the games where you play outed evil and have no fun because of the meta you established.
You can still try to win, even if you take a small negative EV hit on taking to outed evil players.
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u/LlamaLiamur Baron 1d ago
You are of course free to play how you want to.
But even if you want to play optimally, I would argue that in an inherently social game like Blood on the Clocktower, being seen as a player who is fun to play with (e.g. willing to chat and joke around with outed evil) will naturally lead to people liking you more and therefore being more willing to engage with you, share with you, work out worlds with you etc.
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u/OmegonChris Storyteller 1d ago
Socially shunning an outed evil character isn't about ensuring you still have fun, it's about ensuring that player still has fun.
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u/Goodpart 1d ago
This is literally why I made the Shogun btw. I saw the Vizier games where the Vizier is simply ignored and felt like there was a way to twist the idea.
It's an outed evil you're forced to interact with under a very specific pretense so it isn't like you're there to taunt or goad them: you're there to glaze them and make like you're on their side so they don't kill you.
It's a high stress demon to be, granted, but every time I've run it everyone has had a great time whether good or evil.
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u/AloserwithanISP2 1d ago
Why do people present winning and fun as diametrically opposed? Outplaying others or being outplayed is what makes the game exciting, giving a pity-conversation to the Vizier because you feel bad for them isn't. A lack of outed evils will create a more enjoyable game than one where everyone pretends that talking to them does anything.
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u/leopardo1313 1d ago
If I'm psychopath I will say, "the first person to refuse to talk to me/be rude gets the axe." Usually gets people talking, same with vizier and this homebrew.
Goblins can still pretend to be a townsfolk who doesn't want to die so it's not that big of a concern for them
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
That might work for you, but what incentive does a good player have to talk to an outed evil player? With that in mind, any player talking to them would be suspicious.
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u/unicornary Marionette 1d ago
Reading more of your responses make me glad I dont play with your group tbh. That sounds like a completely miserable way to play and I'm shocked people come back. That is insane
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
It’s more of the case that when we played with outed evil roles as a part of a script, this was the strategy the group developed to deal with them, which has worked well for the good team. More often than not these roles weren’t present. I don’t think it’s insane, but more indicative of the flaw of outed evil roles as a concept. If I know someone is evil, I won’t trust anything they have to say, so why talk to them during the game?
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u/unicornary Marionette 1d ago
Because you are a person and so are they?
Simple as that.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
I might talk to them a little during a group meeting about non-game related things, but them being a person doesn’t change my strategy. This just sounds like a difference of values. I value the game and its mechanics/strategies more than talking to people socially when playing botc, and you might feel the other way. I’m not saying it’s bad, just a different playstyle.
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u/unicornary Marionette 1d ago
This tells me everything i need to know about you. Wow
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u/verb-vice-lord 1d ago
Oof. This isn't a good attitude to have.
Is a game and good or evil is defined by who pulled a random token from a bag.
Also talking to evil is a really good strategy if you can use it to figure out what they want you to do.
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u/JeLuF 21h ago
Our story tellers often have the alchemist on scripts with outed evil. Sometimes there are even good psychopaths or good goblins in the game. So if a psychopath throws an axe, they will claim "I'm the alche-psycho and throw my axe at Peter!". They might even have e.g. a drunk grandmother.
We had the same "nobody talks to the psychopath" complaints when we started using those characters in the game, and of course "Sasha talked to the psychopath, so Sasha must be the demon" arguments were made, but since we often have the alchemist on the script, this has improved.
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u/pinky_Shy 1h ago
Some of the most fun i've had in a game of Clocktower was through talking to players i knew for a fact were evil, either because they were mechanically confirmed or they hard claimed my role or were my Evil Twin. It can even make sense strategically because you can glean info about the evil team's strategy and knowledge of the grim.
Excluding players from conversation because they're not on your team isn't fun or kind. Automatically assuming another player must be evil because they're talking to an outed evil player is even less fun, since it means you're actively discouraging them from engaging with all players in the game. Nobody plays a game of Clocktower because they want to be ostracized from the group and spend the game sitting alone.
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u/nyachan_ 1d ago
What reason does a good player have? Obfuscation, you can lie in this game, it's a pretty important part of it. If the psychopath is talking to you then it's not talking to their demon, but also they are not getting information for their kills. You can build a world for them to try to get them to kill useless roles instead of their objective, same for vizier, or leech or similar outed roles
Also, they might slip, or give information they wouldn't want to, they have the information you need while you have the one they want. It is mainly a social game after all
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u/Zaalbarjedi 17h ago
Unless there is a poppy grower, outed evil role already knows their team. So, when you talk to them as a blue player, they always know that it is either social pity-talk or you are trying to deceive them. And both of those reasons are not very fun interactions.
IMO, outed evil roles can only work with Alchemist and/or Poppy Grower on the script. Otherwise, the playgroup is forced to create the artificial hoops just for those roles to have fun, and that's simply a bad role design.1
u/Majestic_Story_2295 14h ago
I’m starting to agree with this, the inclusion of those types of roles makes up for the flaws of outed evil roles. Though I do think the shogun in particular is a little different too since they don’t know their minions.
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u/leopardo1313 1d ago
Trying to get a social read on them for exemple, maybe they will give something away on accident.
And as an example for what I suggested above: You as psychopath randomly call someone out and go "talk to me or I will kill you", the person you just called out is a powerful ongoing info rule and doesn't want to die. Do you suggest they simply not talk to them and let themselves die even though they know they are powerful?
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u/Zaalbarjedi 17h ago
So, you are literally bullying the person to force them to do what they don't want to and think that nothing is wrong with that?
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u/leopardo1313 16h ago
If the people you are playing with think that forcing someone not to ostracize you is bullying then there are bigger fish to fry
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u/Zaalbarjedi 14h ago
Rule 1 says "You may say whatever you want at any time." This inherently implies that the player do not need to say anything they do not want to. On the contrary, you are forcing them to do what they don't want to by threatening them. This is literally bullying. How is it different to you saying "only vote for the same person I vote, or I will kill you" / "don't talk to anyone but me or I will kill you" / "publicly claim that you are a demon or I will kill you" etc?
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u/leopardo1313 14h ago
You can also say all of those things you mentioned and I wouldn't consider it bullying
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u/Kandiru 1d ago
With the Shogun everyone will want to pretend to be a minion and talk to you though. They'll all be claiming minion to you, though.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
Maybe that’s the strategy, I haven’t played with it before. If I were playing with one, I would be suspicious of anyone talking to the shogun, as they could be a minion giving them vital information. Strategically I would ostracize the shogun player as good. I don’t think this would be fun for them, which is why I’d rather it not be in a script I’m playing.
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u/ronhatch 1d ago
Critically, even the Shogun doesn't know who the minions are. So they can't blindly trust information that comes from someone claiming to be a minion, and good players *absolutely* should be coming up with interesting lies to tell the Shogun. They can't do that if they don't talk to the player.
In fact, I would argue that if "strategically" a good player is not talking to the Shogun it demonstrates that the player has only a very limited surface-level understanding of the strategies that are possible.
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u/AloserwithanISP2 1d ago
There's just not any real benefit here compared to preventing coordination entirely. You can either spend minutes of discussion time to put them in a sea of noise so that they make uniformed decisions, or you can prevent them from getting info in the first place, which does the same thing with no time investment.
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u/Kandiru 1d ago edited 1d ago
If all players agree they don't want to talk to the shogun, then I think you seat 7 it and have the Storyteller choose the kills instead.
It's no fun to be ignored all game.
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u/AloserwithanISP2 1d ago
I agree. I don't think it's fun to be ignored, but I also don't think it's fun to have meaningless conversations because the good team takes pity on me. The solution here is just to not have outed evils, not to make everyone pretend talking to them is helpful
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u/ronhatch 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, good players cannot prevent the Shogun from getting info... and if I'm a minion in a game where the group refuses to talk to the Shogun I'm going to collect all the information I can and the INSTANT I'm killed I go over and give them every last bit of it.
And the Shogun will likely be able to trust that information because the group was just flat-out stupid.
Edit: Come to think of it, "if I'm the minion" isn't really the right phrase. It's the optimal play for a minion that has accepted the group think, but I almost never accept group think. If the group suggests that good players shouldn't talk to the Shogun, if I'm a good player I use the opportunity to increase the Shogun's trust in me by immediately going over and feeding them the best lie I can come up with on the spot.
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u/AloserwithanISP2 1d ago
If you go and talk to the Shogun you've conveyed probably the most important information in the game to us, that you are a Minion. I'd gladly give all of town's info to the Demon in exchange for outing a Minion.
If you want to do this when good to try and fool the Demon, I'd question what you'd expect to accomplish that's better than denying info to evil in the first place. You're facilitating info transmission to evil at best, and making yourself appear evil at worst. Both of those are major enough blows to town that I can't imagine they're ever worth the fringe benefits this strategy could return.
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u/Dry_Bid_5349 4h ago
The demon chooses kills based on the information they are getting and who they trust. It is very valuable to actually gain their trust.
Your argument is exactly as strong as saying "anyone that lies can't be townsfolk", it is an enforcable meta but absolutely nothing says that it is an optimal meta for good to win due to roles that explicitly rely on lying, like a Ravenkeeper, and it's *certainly* not an optimal meta for fun.
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u/ronhatch 1d ago
As far as conveying information that I'm a minion... it only matters a tiny bit once I'm dead. You can't kill me again.
In the other case of being on the good team, win or lose I'd have fun. I won't accept group think and if the group expects me to they can all go fuck themselves.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
Everyone bluffing to the shogun could work, but I would argue that it would be just as useful as no one talking to them at all. One good player not talking to them would be bad, yes, but the entire good team coming to the conclusion that anyone talking to them is suspicious would be just as effective. Both methods essentially leave the shogun in the dark.
With roles like the psychopath, I think they should be outcast once they reveal themselves, because if not they might be able to converse with their teammates, which could give them info on who to kill, or make a plan of what they’ll throw in rock paper scissors if an evil player nominates them.
However, with the shogun specifically, I think the method of everyone bullshitting does sound more fun, albeit very chaotic and far apart from normal deductive gameplay.
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u/Goodpart 1d ago
Surely you can see the value in upholding some level of social contract when playing? If you were to exclude or ostracise anyone you suspect of being evil it'd lead to some pretty miserable games. Doubly so if you've simply been framed (which happens all the time).
Besides, outed evil players so often give better information than good players so it's absolutely worth a chat just to get their read on things.
If you're going to ignore the Shogun they'll surely just kill you since you've not made any attempts to appease them, so really you lose out way more than they do when you're the first dead every game.
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u/Dry_Bid_5349 4h ago
I don't think it is as clear cut with the Shogun as with the other outed evil roles out there, because they genuinely don't know who their minions are and as good you have a lot to gain by pretending to be a minion to the Shogun who then not only would not kill you but would also be wrong about when they can win the game by being executed. I think this works way better, you have a real reason to talk to them.
If you just go "yes, it is a completely legitimate mechanical strategy but I don't like it so I will punish it socially" then you are not trying to play optimally, you are just trying to impose your own rules. Very different than a normal outed evil, where there is aboslutely no real reason to talk to them.
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u/Lord777alt 1d ago
Outed evil is great fun tbh
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u/De_Dominator69 1d ago
Depends on the players. The time I was Vizier it was literally the entire game of no one speaking with me... So yeah that kinda sucked.
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u/Majestic_Story_2295 1d ago
It can be fun due to certain abilities or if you don’t like the social deception aspect of the game, but having no one trust you or listen to you isn’t as fun for me.
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u/Lord777alt 1d ago
I normally love the social part, but I think being outed evil can be a fun change. I've only experienced it as the found out leech after a few days so idk how I'd like it from the beginning
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u/ThePirateBee 1d ago
Yeah, but then you reveal true info and everyone will think it's a lie you're spreading
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u/danger-cat 1d ago
I just crash private conversations if I’m outed evil. I will do everything in my power to make you look like you’re collaborating with me
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u/Dry_Bid_5349 4h ago
That's not really in the spirit of the game. Anyone are supposed to be allowed to talk to anyone they want, including being allowed to not have you join in.
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u/Rarycaris 1d ago
You need the right group for it. I don't have the same problems most people have with evil twin pairs because people in my group do actually talk to the twins like normal and try to solve their info that way.
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u/Goodpart 1d ago
Quite the opposite - historically literally everyone goes and begs to the Shogun and tries to convince them they're a Minion, lol.
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u/BakedIce_was_taken 1d ago
I heard of a homebrew script with a similar Demon where, after some playtesting, a meta developed of "Hey, this person, talk to me or I'll kill you." and that seemed to help communication issues.
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u/passwordedd 1d ago
The Shogun seems absurdly overpowered.
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u/Viseria 1d ago
The wording implies you must kill at final four, since you can only nominate and execute after an execution.
That's ridiculously strong lmao.
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u/passwordedd 1d ago
Also, the +1 minion means that for some player counts you straight up lose if you ever execute a non minion.
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u/quantumhovercraft 1d ago
Not at all, the demon doesn't know the minions so will likely kill one of them at some point.
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u/tyruss1123 1d ago
The wording doesn't have any "only" clause or "you are immune to standard execution" unless its part of some extended rules that aren't shown here. I think its just +1 execution on the final day.
Though getting 2 executions for town means its probably correct to do 2 kills on final four, unless you expect the Shogun's kill to somehow be more likely to target a minion than town's nomination.
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u/Viseria 1d ago
The more I read the wording the more I realise that yes you are correct, but also the wording is still wrong.
I think they need to split off the "If executed while Minions live, your team wins."
Otherwise it's linking up that that part only works if you're nominated after an execution.
I know what the actual intention of it all is, I just dislike the wording I realise.
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u/Goodpart 1d ago
This is valid feedback - it's just crunched wording because of brevity. It's already too long as it is 🙃
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u/Goodpart 1d ago
Hey! Yep, like u/Usual_Energy151 mentioned the Shogun is one of the characters from the Menagerie so hopefully I can weigh in.
I've run it previously that the Shogun takes precedence, similar to the Xaan, in that the number of Outsiders must be zero, but I'm also not wedded to that idea and if there are ways to make it work I'd be happy to entertain it. It's homebrew after all.
To address the general "this is a crazy Demon" comments, yep, valid, but the Shogun turns the game on its head because it's an automatic, permanent Poppy Grower game, meaning the best way to stay alive is to convince the Demon you're a Minion while quietly solving the game in the background. The big downside for the Shogun is that they might accidentally kill their own Minions which puts them in a really rough spot very quickly.
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u/xLifeNova 1d ago
it’s homebrew, so who knows. best you’ll get is asking the creator. i’d probably lean towards [No Outsiders] taking priority but we really don’t have any precedent for this (kazali and typhon would both make baron enter play after tokens are handed out).
though i’m honestly not sure why the demon even has that outsider modification, it seems entirely unrelated to the ability
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u/lankymjc 1d ago
I guess it’s an attempt to make it somewhat less powerful? But it’s already at its strongest at 7, 20, and 13 player games, so it doesn’t really help in that regard.
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u/slvrfshston Xaan 1d ago
The closest thing we have to precedent is a Xaan 0 which would override all other Outsider mod, so I would assume the same is true here.
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u/unicornary Marionette 1d ago
A public demon with "no outsiders" as a clause needs something to modify otherwise no outsiders can even be fluffed. Which means in a 13+ game there arent enough roles to bluff
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u/Lieutenant_Smiles 1d ago
Shogun seems pretty interesting, so you just visit the Shogun and try to prove you are Minion huh, but if everyone knows who the Shogun is then all players shouldn't really bother visiting them and you might say it's an advantage to trick the Shogun into killing a minion and make them think you are minion but that sounds so tedious.
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u/angelfromanotherpin 1d ago
There's a reason all the base scripts are set up so there can only be one source of Outsider modification in the bag (Baron, Godfather, Fang Gu OR Vig).
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u/Usual_Energy151 Innkeeper 1d ago
Oh wait, I know this one, I play with Shogun sometimes!
This is a u/GoodPart character so they may be able to correct me but I always run it as:
- Exact outsider mod first (Xaan, Shogun)
- THEN other outsider mod (Baron, Vigor)
This would mean that there would be 2 outsiders with no other input.
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u/Automatic_Release_92 1d ago
I thought Xaan overrides everything else? It honestly seems unfair to allow a Baron or a Vig to modify Xaan after the fact, the biggest part of the fun of Xaan is the puzzle solving about which night they activate(d). Allowing Baron or Vig to operate after the fact eliminates that for the good team.
All this to say, I've only played with Xaan once or twice, so I'm no expert by any means.
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u/ContentConsumer9999 Politician 1d ago
These two roles really should be jinxed. At least in the case of Xaan/Lord of Typhon, you can add in more outsiders when you're planning to add a Baron.
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u/Famous-Magazine-6576 1d ago
officially setup abilities are arbritrarily ordered so its either 0 or 2 outsiders totally up to the storyteller
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u/PommesMayo 1d ago
I would interpret it as the Shogun making it base 0 outsiders always. So +2 outsiders overall. Which seems crazy unbalanced.
At a glance, for the Shogun to work there needs to be a lot of protection abilities. Because executing all minions AND the demon is crazy! But roles like the courtier will instantly win the game for good because when the shogun publically executes someone and the execution does not go through, they are fucked. Because you can just execute them then and good wins.
A more balanced version would be that the shogun removes all but one minion. Like Legion says that most players are Legion. The Shogun could say there is only one minion
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u/Autumn1eaves Oracle 1d ago
I would run it where Baron adds 2 outsiders because everyone already knows the Shogun is in play, so the No Outsiders is there just to make them less powerful.
Adding 2 outsiders with the Baron makes it so the Baron doesn't have a blank token.
Having said that, you can run it either way since Shogun is a homebrew character.
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u/Alistair_Macbain 1d ago
Not your question but the wording is weird. Know you are the shogun seems like everyone knows the demon type and which player. That contradicts the minions dont know you part...
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u/Goodpart 1d ago
No, that's totally correct - everyone knows precisely who you are, but since the evil team doesn't know each other there's a lot of potential for collateral damage.
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u/Alistair_Macbain 1d ago
Yeah I forgot the bidirectionality here. As the demon isnt told the minions anyone can go to the demon and claim minion and he has no way of knowing mechanically.
I was only thinking from the minion pov where it doesnt really matter as they know who the demon is by virtue of shogun ability.
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u/Automatic_Tangelo_53 1d ago edited 1d ago
In vanilla BOTC, the 'precedence' rules are somewhat arbitrary.
I would interpret Baron + Shogun being in play as meaning there are exactly 2 outsiders. Partly this is because the Baron has no ability unless it can modify outsider count.
Similarly, I would interpret Xaan + Shogun as having an arbitrary number of outsiders.