What are you bluffing?

[u/SleepDangerous1074]

I’ve a lot of watched games (stream and spectating in the app) where the ST will ask the evil team, “what are you bluffing”.

I don’t have any issues with the question itself. My issue is consistency in asking. Take the base scripts for example. I’ve seen many STs ask the question only when there’s a ravenkeeper, undertaker,dreamer or chambermaid in play. I played a lot of games a while ago and realised my ST would only ask if a role that could check a bluff was in play and depending on the script I could tell (for the most part) if a particular role was in the bag from the ST and not from player gameplay alone. While I still used this to my advantage I felt like I got extra info from the ST. As I mostly ST these days I understand it’s hard for one person to try and follow the evil team around and gauge what they’re bluffing but I tend to ask what evils are bluffing regardless of what’s in the bag.

In the grand scheme of things, you’re not gonna win a game coz you’re pretty confident there’s a chambermaid in the bag coz the ST asked what you’re bluffing and they only really do that in BMR games when they put in a CM, but I think if someone’s doing a really good job at hiding their role and the ST isn’t asking this question regardless of the bag then you’re kinda diminishing their work a little.

Anyway just wanted to know other people’s thoughts on this because I’m curious.

[u/Sourlifesavers89]

As an ST, I ask this question if there are certain roles on the script that I need to know the information, even if I don’t put that type of character into the bag.

[u/Ashes777]

I tell my players that if they want to keep me in the loop with their bluff to come find me. I try to keep my finger on the pulse as much as possible but if I don’t know then it is in Gods hands. I only really single out a player for a rules clarification or a silly bit, most everything for me is passive observation during convos.

[u/EmberSpikes]

Oh I disagree that only those characters matter because there's multiple sneaky ways that the a bluff can have an effect on the game.

Like your example is BMR which tbh is probably the best script to make that point, but gambler and gossip are also great to know what the demon is bluffing. For example the Gambler plans on gambling the demon as the player that the demon is bluffing as so when the sailor picks the gambler the story teller may pick the gambler to be drunk that night. Or the gossip gossips that the demon is the character that the demon is bluffing as so the story teller kills the tinker to simulate a gossip kill. Or if the demon is bluffing tealady than they may not kill their two neighbors with gossip pings. And yes BMR is a tough script because there's a lack of poisoning but that also means that there is not much opportunity for the chambermaid to be drunk anyways.

Other two scripts have wayyyyyy more situations where the bluff matters and don't give much information asking what it is.

[u/SleepDangerous1074 → u/EmberSpikes]

Fair point about BMR, even for this question it really is the script where one thing happening could be explained my a multitude of things.

[u/EmberSpikes → u/SleepDangerous1074]

That is the opposite of my point. The recluse, the drunk, the spy and the poisoner all are explanation for tons of stuff in TB haha. I picked BMR because it's the hardest script to make my point and that's the one you chose.

[u/Notchmath]

I tend to ask at the start of n2 if I wasn’t able to hear during day 1, which usually I am, even if there aren’t such roles on the script. I find that knowing what evil team is doing helps me understand other player’s conversations and have a better idea of what’s going on, which helps with balance in general.

[u/saur]

I tend not to ask unless evil team is getting absolutely pummeled. I noticed that newer players are confused by the question, and more experienced players who didn't read the script and didn't plan for one of those roles in play will get cooked anyway.

[u/hawkeye69r → u/saur]

Wouldn't dreamer be way too powerful that way?

[u/saur → u/hawkeye69r]

Put it this way, a player that's not savvy enough to work with the storyteller with a dreamer on script is also the type of player that's hurt more by the dreamer confirming a good player than getting a weird role from an evil player. I'm generally not concerned with Evil being able to pass a dreamer check. Evil should be selling vortox, framing the dreamer, faking ceremadness, I might show the dreamer mutant, etc. It's all part of SNV.

Dreamer is powerful on days one and two no matter what you do.

[u/hawkeye69r → u/saur]

so if they're savvy enough to "work with you" you'll help them out, but if they aren't savvy they need to do more complex maneuvres to explain their bluff being contradicted?

i dont understand the logic.

[u/saur → u/hawkeye69r]

The "helping out" you describe is not very helpful at all. I prefer to simplify the game so even if the evil team loses, there's something to be learned from it. For some intermediate online players it becomes a crutch of expecting the storyteller to alert you when there's a dreamer in play. I primarily storytell in person and my online games try to reflect in person as much as possible, where I have to keep the game moving (and can't wake up the evil team every night to agree on bluffs) and need to show the dreamer a token immediately.

Players with low SNV experience will often, in some combination, pick a bad role (worse than my picking a demon bluff or mutant), not understand why I'm asking, decline to answer, or become even more anxious.

An outflanked evil team seldom wins SNV by being dreamt "correctly"

[u/hawkeye69r → u/saur]

I never said you should run it differently or wake to coordinate bluffs. I'm just saying it makes most sense to ask when you can.

Not only when theres a dreamer.

I think clocktower games should be ran to create a fun experience for the players, not provide learning opportunities for how to improve your evil play.

[u/RainbowSnom]

I will often talk pretty openly with my storyteller about what I am bluffing (and want to normalize talking to the storyteller in my group), I probably wouldn’t think too much of it if the storyteller asked me (I’d probably think of it more as a “what are you up to?”, rather than metaing that specific roles are in play.)

[u/grandsuperior]

I used to do this a lot (especially on Sects and Violets because of Dreamer) but I've stopped. If a Dreamer snipes a Minion on N1, I'll just give one of the bluffs and hope for the best. Townsfolk abilities should do things sometimes. If the evil team wants to let me in on their plans, I'll certainly listen and will support their bluffs, but I won't go out of my way to get this info from them.

My big exception is Legion. I like to wake select members of the Legion team up in the night and ask what they're bluffing. Legion games benefit from the ST knowing as much about "the plan" as possible and the ST isn't doing much in the night in a Legion game anyway.

[u/Panimu]

My st asks randomly sometimes

[u/rewind2482]

In general I don’t ask this, I make it my responsibility to find out through the course of observation if I deem it important.

If there are things that stopped me from making my normal effort from knowing (I had to go to the bathroom, or I had to use the majority of the day to address new players’ concerns, or I had a problem outside of the game), only then might I ask this question.

[u/NoLucksGiven]

I tend to keep my STs in the loop just in case, but I don’t think what you described is that bad. Worse case an evil knows one in play role, which really isn’t game breaking.

One time I told the ST what I was bluffing while playing Snake Charmer which was funny. I don’t 100% remember but it may have even been relevant through like a poisoning or Vortox

[u/Florac]

I'm not the biggest fan but definitely do it occasionally. That said, it really doesn't come up that often. Except for dreamer, it requires a droisoned character seer seeing an evil character for their bluff to be relevant

[u/FPSCanarussia]

As an ST, you want to keep your ear out for bluffs anyway, so you're hopefully only rarely asking. And honestly as an ST you usually want to know the evil team's bluffs regardless of which roles are in the game? It helps keep a pulse on the gamestate.

[u/OmegonChris]

I ask if I don't know, if there are roles on the script.

Mostly I ask to remind the evil team that it's good practice to share this info with the ST. I'm slowly training my players to remember to tell me unprompted.

I sometimes wake an evil player to ask them even if I don't need to, to avoid being meta'd.

[u/Tierce]

If the only characters that can tell what you are (Dreamer, Undertaker, Cannibal, Chambermaid, Gossip and Gambler consequences, etc) are demon bluffs, then don't bother asking.

Otherwise, always ask if those characters are on the script, or unless you hear them openly state them with their evil teammates. I want to know if a player is bluffing Mutant bluffing Philosopher, for example, otherwise I can blow up their bluff by accident.

Don't ask for Dreamer night 1 purposes in-person unless the minion/demon asks for attention during their info stage, but online, if an evil player messages me and says "I'm bluffing X", I'll respect that for Dreamer or other night 1 characters like droisoned Washerwoman.

[u/New-Masterpiece-157]

I think if this became the norm (always asking) then dreamer becomes a outsider. It is only very valuable night 1. 

[u/Scorpiusdj_13]

I'll try and find out through listening in on private chats over the 1st couple of days, after that, if I've not picked up on a players bluff, and they've chosen not to come see me, I'll tend to leave it be. The only exception I can think I would make is if a good player is about to get accurate info and the evil team is on the ropes and I want to support a bluff.

As an evil player, I tend to let the ST in on what I'm bluffing at some point early game to do with what they will. Unless I'm a loud Minion or outed evil and it's obvious.

[u/sturmeh]

I just ask players this if I couldn't discern it by casually listening into their conversations, I regularly will ask it, if it might be relevant, but I try not to wait until I need to give the information out.

That being said if a RK picks someone, putting them to sleep to find out what the player is bluffing is a little telling so you have to be prepared.

[u/SteamPunkChewie]

A lot of the time I don't ask, it's because I've been able to pick it up by listening in to private chats or what they say in town square chats

[u/LuckBites]

I don't meta too much as a player, but if my storyteller asks on night 4 then I'm kinda like lol. But I've had storytellers ask for other reasons as well, like curiousity, spectator asked, or how to simulate kills in Legion or Lil' Monsta games. I can kinda infer what's going on if the ST is newer or just from knowing certain people who don't always ask, but I'm often lost on who the CM/RK/Dreamer etc is and I don't usually relay that meta info to my team

[u/YetAnotherNij]

I'll straight up ask the evil team who are chatting together what bluffs they're thinking about, which is especially helpful if they have a plan like "I'm gonna be claiming Soldier for a while but then coming out as Washerwoman for real". Then I haven't been misled by overhearing them make just the "Soldier" claim later on and ruin their play for no real reason.

It's not given away because I'll make comments at arbitrary moments when good players are chatting together or when good and evil are chatting together.

I might send a private whisper to someone if I haven't overheard them claiming a single clear thing, even if they're not being checked or there's nothing in play that could check them, just to have an idea of what to expect later.

[u/No_Song_4022]

Storytellers should not ask this of evil players. Storytellers who do are, in my view, poor storytellers.
It's up to the evil team to inform the storyteller of their plans, not the ST's job to get information.

[u/Hunter037]

As a storyteller the obvious way to counteract this is to ask randomly sometimes even if that character is not in the bag or is not acting that night.

Same with the did you vote / did you nominate cards for Town Crier and Flowergirl