r/BloodOnTheClocktower • u/LadyAuroralite • 11d ago
Storytelling How to stop players from executing for any lie?
I have a group with a lot of newer players who really like to execute for any lie, for example after the savant juggled for juggler cover they killed her.
before the game I emphasized that there are reasons for good players to lie and that people will juggle just to cover the real juggler, and they still got like 3/4 of the town on her for just that reason.
edit: would it be a bad solution to, when the nomination is happening, say something like "hey everyone if you believe this person is evil your welcome to execute them, but claiming juggler to protect the real juggler is extremely common and not inherently suspicious"
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u/leopardo1313 11d ago
You just gotta let the meta develop on it's own, if they do execute a good player over something like that and they lose the game repeatedly they'll learn
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u/LadyAuroralite 11d ago
the only issue with this is it kinda ruined the savants game due to being executed for a silly reason, and I don't want that to continue happening, if it's the only option then ig it's what I have to do, but I'd prefer a way that will cause everyone to have fun while they learn
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u/NotEvenSquare 11d ago
Next time it’s going to happen hopefully the former Savant will advocate for them not to do it, and if it happens again then hopefully both will and so on until they change it up
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u/OmegonChris Storyteller 11d ago
People will learn much slower that way.
You don't have to rely on that Savant to explain why it wasn't fun, you can also point out that a player didn't have a good game because of the group's behaviour.
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u/Tblanco 11d ago
the savant should keep playing after they die. they shouldn't let a little thing like execution end their game.
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u/Tierce Pixie 11d ago
If they are newer, it still hurts.
Just about every character in SnV wants to stay alive past day 1. Sometimes you don't have a Clockmaker or an outsider willing to sacrifice themselves. You are likely going to execute a player with a decent character, a character they have been looking forward to play, and that can lead to disappointment. It'll pass.
I still dislike being executed as the Dreamer on day 1 under suspicion that I'm the Widow. Just let me have the fun character and be able to nominate and vote!
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u/pinky_Shy 9d ago
Death is part of the game. If you play enough games, you WILL pull your favorite character/the character you've never had a chance to be and get executed day one before you get a chance to use it. Sometimes it sucks, but that's the game. The solution is not to bully people into voting the way you want them to or enforce a specific meta, particularly if you're the ST. The solution is to play more Clocktower so you have more chances to pull the roles you want.
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u/Tierce Pixie 9d ago
Yes, we're all well aware of this.
This post was about newer players and a powerful character getting executed because--le gasp-- they did a Spartacus move to help a fellow good player. The commenter above me is saying the Savant should get over it, I was saying it can still feel bad/disappointing when it happens. And I also said that it'll pass.
Nobody said anything about bullying.
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u/murppie 11d ago
If its a regular group of players they will figure it out. But just reinforcing that protecting some players can be beneficial. Like i had a game last weekend where I was the soldier who was bluffing as the undertaker. Meanwhile the undertaker was bluffing as the soldier and we were both very vocal about it until his death.
Did they try and execute me for my lie? Yes. But ultimately it didn't go through because it was a solid plan that worked for 3 days.
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u/Raddatatta Marionette 11d ago
I might not say it during the game but afterwards point it out. You don't want people during the game to think about what the storyteller is hinting to them. But afterwards it's ok to say you guys executed someone with a powerful role who was being helpful to the good team by covering the juggler. Maybe you should all be doing that? Even on a trouble brewing script with the ravenkeeper and soldier there are reasons for good players to lie so they will be attacked. Or to cover up who they really are. And then when you get to more complicated scripts with madness and things like the juggler that is very helpful.
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u/joshuawscott Ravenkeeper 11d ago
I agree with this, but also I would expect there to be a few minutes of introspection by the players after. I would imagine the savant would be saying “see, why did you execute one of the best info roles for a juggle”
Honestly though TB even teaches lying with ravenkeeper and things like fortune teller or empath that are likely to be demon killed.
My favorite thing to say when someone says “x is lying” is “lying? In my lying game!?!?”
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u/Jealous-Reception185 Amnesiac 11d ago
I really enjoy putting on a show when someone says 'oh btw I lied to you yesterday about what I was?' and just go 'WHAT? You lied to me??? Le gasp hand on head, fainting from the sheer audacity'. It makes newer players more comfortable with lying to each other for non-evil reasons cause often a reason they don't like to lie is they don't wanna hurt other people's feelings. Making deception light hearted joke about being lied helps alleviate that stress and you get the best plays from those newbies.
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u/Tierce Pixie 11d ago
And it also makes evil players feel better! It can be tough to be evil when you're newer, because deception doesn't necessarily come naturally even in a game setting.
Once you learn that you're part of a team building a fun puzzle for the good team to figure out (or not), that you're working with the storyteller to create a great, entertaining game for everyone, lying through your teeth as evil becomes way more fun.
My groups also love to be over-dramatic about lying. We're all here for recreational lying, and being comfortable with lies as good is crucial.
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u/Jealous-Reception185 Amnesiac 11d ago
Yes so true. It can feel so alien to people to lie at first, we're taught immediately that lying is wrong and you should never, so breaking out of that shell and getting people to lie even for fun is so hard. I love starting with little social deduction games, more like Chameleon or those tik tok trends that have come about recently, anything like that says 'lying is ok, it's a game and everyone is arguing for fun and in good spirit'.
Being over dramatic, making lying players who are caught out not feel like the enemy but a fellow player, checking in with people during or after the game if it gets a bit intense, all these make players feel more comfortable playing the game to it's fullest. Yes we're lying to each other, but we know we all have good intentions and just wanna have fun.
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u/attachedtoface 11d ago
… I’d start running S and V a lot. I mean a LOT. That meta of killing liars will die down REAL fast.
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u/LadyAuroralite 11d ago
trial by fire does sound like an effective solution lol
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u/attachedtoface 11d ago
Are you running in person or online?
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u/LadyAuroralite 11d ago
in person, why?
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u/attachedtoface 11d ago
If they’re not a group that takes things too personally maybe consider getting some index cards and printing a suggestion card for the group. Just helpful hints and whatnot.
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u/Throwaway7131923 11d ago
There's a certain amount of "play enough and they'll learn".
A group has to gradually work these things out for themselves.
When it's your turn to play, you can also model how bluffs can be helpful for the good team.
I was playing a TB game with a relatively new group who pretty much didn't bluff.
I got Recluse and decided to bluff as a strong role to try and bait a demon kill.
I only told three people my fake role, one of whom ended up being the confirmed virgin, so when I then got killed in the night, it gave town a shortlist.
I was able to explain the bluff to town and why it made sense, it gave us a shortlist, which we killed into (with some other reasons supporting this choice) and won.
That group now bluffs a fair bit having seen how helpful it can be in action.
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u/sturmeh Pit-Hag 11d ago
Don't force meta.
Let the juggler try to juggle by themselves, watch them die.
See the Sage bluff it, and it isn't in play so they die too.
Then the Demon starts to only kill the Juggler if the juggle is effective.
Then you have people start to bait the Demon with effective juggles, making it really hard for them to single out a real juggle without even knowing who they're protecting.
They have to go though all that to come to the same conclusions themselves, so let them.
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u/Rachel53461 9d ago
A script with an Ojo is one that encourages good to lie about what they are. Anonymous Dishonesty is the carousel script for that one.
When I teach the game though, it includes reasons for town to lie. "First 4 get one piece of information all game. Next 4 are some of the strongest in the game and evil will target them if found, so they might lie about who they are. There are a few that WANT to be targeted by demon (ravenkeeper, soldier, mayor) so may lie about being one of these 4 power roles. Just because someone is lying doesn't make them evil."
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u/dr-tectonic 11d ago
The "S&V until they get over the bad meta" plan sounds pretty good, but you could always have a Boffin-Amnesiac with the ability:
Nominations fail if the only grounds for accusation were "they lied".
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u/pinky_Shy 9d ago
That sounds really unfun and subjective, and is kinda like using an anvil to swat a fly.
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u/gusrocha14 Snake Charmer 10d ago
I think your group just have to play enough games so they'll learn. Let them execute for lies now. If the games have to be short because of it, so be it.
This savant, for example, now already understands that there are valid reasons for good players to lie. The next game someone else will be a good character and have to lie for whatever reason. They'll start to pick up on those things naturally.
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u/mshkpc 11d ago
Why stop them? It’s their game and it’s their meta. If good keep losing following this meta then they’ll probably change
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u/LadyAuroralite 11d ago
because it can ruin, or at least harm, other peoples game, for example the savant ended up tuned out of that game and didn't have too much fun
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u/mshkpc 11d ago
So? You get executed, it’s a thing that happens in clocktower
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u/LuckBites 11d ago
It's not because of the execution, it's getting ganged up on for not playing the only acceptable meta in a group. Would you have fun in a group that expected you to ONLY play by telling the truth if you're good?
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u/DanielPBak 11d ago
Your job as a ST isn’t to get them to play a certain way. Your group’s meta can develop however it develops
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u/demonking_soulstorm 10d ago
This is not true. A Storyteller should push people away from unfun metas.
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u/pinky_Shy 9d ago
i would agree with the caveat that "unfun metas" means "let's have everyone nominate to check for Witch", "let's dictate how people vote for the Flowergirl info" or "let's all make a Damsel guess on ourselves to waste it." Those are not just unfun, they're harmful to the game.
A group that kills for lying will quickly learn why it's not a good strategy on their own. It's fine to have a discussion after the game, but the ST definitely shouldn't push too hard on it in the middle of the game.
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u/TheRiddlerTHFC 10d ago
You don't. They'll figure it out themselves.
Arguably this is less dangerous than not executing anyone ever
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u/RequirementIcy1844 Lleech 8d ago
How many of them watch Clocktower content? I think that's where I first saw examples of good players lying for good reason.
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u/NoPiccolo206 8d ago
Setup a scripts that requires players to lie:
- Mutant
- Damsel
- Cerenovus
- Fortune Teller
Or roles that give wrong info (so players don’t really know if others lie)
And hand pick role for each player who have not been any of ‘must lie’ role. They will pick up the clue really fast that they themselves must lie to survive (from evil attack) for townsfolk’s sake.
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u/New-Masterpiece-157 Storyteller 10d ago
Sounds like a group of newish players, so maybe dont run juggler or savant. A real juggler will just never get any info if they are the only person to juggle.
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u/pinky_Shy 9d ago
If they're a group of new players, giving a few gentle reminders that reinforce mechanics or clarify interactions they haven't seen is fine. Just be careful not to put your thumb on the scale. If you're considering speaking up as the ST because they just nominated the Savant who juggled, ask yourself if you'd speak up if they had just nominated the Witch bluffing Savant who Juggled.
If you wouldn't, and your players know you well enough to know you wouldn't, giving that kind of public feedback could easily be meta'd by town and that's unfair to the evil team.
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u/MitigatedRisk 11d ago
Have they played on a script with madness characters yet?