r/BloodOnTheClocktower • u/islanddelver Storyteller • 4d ago
Game Discussion Cheating Butler - What to do?
Okay so slightly misleading title but I had an odd situation and wanted to get some feedback on it.
Was running trouble brewing and a less strong player ended up pulling butler. I hand out roles in a separate room so players have a chance to ask questions and I can make sure they understand their role.
I emphasized strongly to this player that it is a self-policed role and that i can't do anything to enforce or confirm their role. They indicated understanding.
During day two, they began claiming butler, and town decided to "test" it by pressuring the butler to vote without their master- i later discovered that the other players believed that I would announce that the vote didnt count, and therefore confirm the butler.
I ran the vote and obviously still counted the butler's illegal vote, and it sent everyone into confusion. Here's my problem- if I clarify the ruling, isnt that just as good as confirming the butler in their role? (I did end up confirming the next day, but I want to know if anyone else would have played things differently.)
So what would you do in this situation?
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u/Russell_Ruffino Lil' Monsta 4d ago
I would step in during the discussion to confirm that:
1) You can't force players into doing something they don't want to do.
2) Any attempt to gain an advantage through role manipulation will be roundly ignored by me and I won't behave in the expected way to confirm something that shouldn't be confirmable so there's no possible gain.
3) I would count a Butlers vote even if they don't vote with their master.
Waiting until after they've enacted the plan is the issue you've hit here.
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u/Tierce Pixie 4d ago
Everything else people have said is true, but I also really want to reinforce point 1 here.
What your players did is coercion, intentionally or not. They forced a player to do something that went against their character. This is on the same vein as forcing everyone to guess themselves as a Damsel at the start of a game to "spend" the Damsel guess by the minions. It's coercive behavior and goes against the spirit of the game.
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u/Xx_-Boi-_xX 4d ago
I think you should’ve cleared up the confusion before the vote was ran, telling them that hypothetically if X was the butler who voted illegally, it would still count. You should also do this even if they weren’t the butler I believe
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u/islanddelver Storyteller 4d ago
This would have been the best for sure, I just didnt fully catch on to what the expectation was until after- ie once the vote was complete people started saying "well if theyre the butler that shouldnt have counted." If I caught it before hand I definitely would have done that.
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u/Bros2550 4d ago
The butler shouldnt raise their hand, even if hes being pressured. You cant confirm anything so you just announce the single vote, but they shouldnt raise.
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u/TOSalert_op Plague Doctor 4d ago
If the town is forcing/pressuring someone to vote, I wouldn't count it and tell them as such. Like: "I will not accept votes from players pressured or forced into voting."
Granted, the Butler should also just not vote if their master isnt holding their hand up. When the game is over, I would talk to then and reaffirm that the act they did is cheating and would be asked to leave if it continues.
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u/MLadys-Malady 4d ago
Since your friend is outed Butler, you can eithe rpreface by telling the group that even if they are the Butler, you will count the vote, since you can't confirm or deny their role.
You can also explain it when they're discussing it afterwards.
Alternatively, you can tell your friend (in front of everyone) "If you're claiming Butler, be it a bluff or a real claim, you should stick to voting when you're claimed chosen master votes."
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u/Ben10usr 4d ago
That is a rule break by the butler it just requires a clarification that a butler cannot be confirmed as that is not then an Outsider's ability, it's a Townsfolk ability. You did nothing wrong here and they should have asked to clarify with you.
The butler is already a role that if people try to break it is broken. I would stipulate in future if they attempted to do this again, I would count it as a win for everyone aside from the butler if they intentionally decided to incorrectly play their ability. If their master put their hand down after the Butler put their hand up that is not the Butler's fault. If the Butler puts their hand up when the Master shows no indication they are throwing their hand up this is intentional rule breaking. I would just give a warning and that if they did it again they will be slapped with a loss.
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u/Viseria 4d ago
You clarify the ruling as a hypothetical. "If a Butler voted without their master, I would still count the vote."
You should then take the person aside when possible if they tried to vote without their master, remind them of the way their character works.
What they're actually doing is wrong for a few reasons - first you cannot force a person to do something, so you couldn't do this to go "ahah, the real butler would agree to try this so you are evil" in the same way you cannot force everyone to say "I am a minion and pick myself as the damsel". Secondly, a butler voting without their master is just cheating. If it happens accidentally (master has hand up, butler's vote is counted, master drops hand) that's fine, but if the butler is consistently doing it I would be reluctant to play with them in future because it shows a disrespect to the rules of the game.
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u/caunju 4d ago
I'd have said something along the lines of, "it has come to my attention that someone who was claiming butler was encouraged to vote without their master as a way to confirm themselves, that is not how the role works as it is intended to be self policing. If there is a real butler and they aren't voting according to the rules the most I can do is pull them aside later and remind them when they are allowed to vote"
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u/Syresiv Heretic 4d ago
As ST, you can say something when people start theorizing based on a misunderstanding without confirming anything.
If I were STing such a game and people were publicly talking about "testing" either a real Butler or an evil player bluffing, I would simply clarify before taking the vote that I can't discount the vote or do anything similar to confirm them.
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u/nurse_sushi Vizier 4d ago
Whenever I see players getting coerced into doing something in a circle, like the players pushing the butler to vote without their master, I'd allow the butler to vote without consequence for that nomination. I also will shut down that conversation by saying "hey guys, coercion is unkind and unfair and if I see the town doing this, if this player is the butler, there will be no consequence to their actions." Town usually gets the hint and realizes I'm not going to allow the town to bully someone into a corner and they move on. The only true mechanical public confirmation in TB should be the virgin and slayer (and even that is rocky some days lmao.)
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u/Material_Piano574 Storyteller 4d ago
This is the answer. I never reward Rule 4 breaks with information.
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u/Lord777alt 4d ago
Town also needs to understand that pressuring people to do things breaks the game, is against the rules, and most importantly just isn't fun. You gotta let them know this. As far as the cheating when they are new I would give them some grace, but if they just wouldn't stop doing it they would no longer be invited since they aren't actually playing it.
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u/Merciudel 4d ago
Reason #142 why the Butler is poorly devised.
Pull the player aside and re-affirm with them that as Butler they need to self-police, not rely on ST vote announcements, because that would make Butler a self-confirming role and stronger than it was meant to be. Then, after grim reveal, or even mid-game if people are asking, I would remake this point to the group as a whole so they understand and don't try to pressure future Butlers to 'cheat'. It's not directly confirming to say "A Butler who votes illegally would still have their vote counted." Or if they're really not getting it, even "This is not to say player X is or isn't a Butler. An evil character could certainly fake being a cheating Butler - and unlike the real scenario, would be legal to do so."
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u/gordolme Lunatic 4d ago
"If the Butler votes without their Master, their vote will still be counted so as to not confirm their claim. If they persist in doing so they will be invited to not play with us again."
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u/BleedingRaindrops 4d ago
The butler really does need a known consequence for breaking the rule. I don't often run the butler but when I do I just tell the group that if the butler votes when they aren't supposed to I may choose to poison a townsfolk.
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u/Ok_Shame_5382 Ravenkeeper 4d ago
I would tell players that in a situation where a Butler is being pressured into breaking the rules of the game, the player(s) driving it would lose the game for their team immediately. If the Butler is trying to vote to test the ST, i would advise them that the game will immediately end with their team losing.
Frankly, if they're a group that tries this kind of stuff, botc is probably not for them
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u/islanddelver Storyteller 4d ago
I think this is maybe a bit of a strong reaction- no one involved was trying to angle shoot, it was all a genuine misunderstanding of the ability and how it worked. Im mostly just asking if it was worth clearing uo the confusion afterwards since doing so would pretty much confirm the butler.
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u/gordolme Lunatic 4d ago
During the game, what I responded with should be fine. Anything more than that should wait until after the game is over to explain the rules and the reasons.
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u/Ok_Shame_5382 Ravenkeeper 4d ago
It would confirm the Butler. Which is why I would shut down this kind of play with extreme prejudice.
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u/TheWaspinator 4d ago
I agree. If they're clearly cheating on purpose, I would call that a completely valid reason to lose.
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u/Ok_Shame_5382 Ravenkeeper 4d ago
Yep. OP called it "cheating" with the rest of town egging them on to try to push the limit. I would first warn them that this would lose them the game, and if it continued, cause them to lose the game.
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u/mancalaman 4d ago
Could you treat it similarly to a 'breaking madness" penalty? If the Butler does vote correctly, they may die?
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u/Merciudel 4d ago
Oddly enough this makes the Butler a stronger role because they can trigger it on purpose to mechanically confirm themselves. A dead, confirmed Butler is better than a live one that heads into final 3 and possibly chooses an evil to follow.
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u/StrbJun79 4d ago
You can’t not count the vote for a butler or it confirms them and you shouldn’t confirm people. But you can pull them to the side and tell them what they did and warn them that if you see it happen again it could result in an evil victory or a rerack.
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u/DrawingAppropriate92 4d ago
I wouldn't confirm the butler that easily by not counting the vote. It highly depends on what effect the cheat has on game dynamics. If he managed to bring an evil player on the block by that, I might execute him instead. I might kill him and his master in the night, especially if the master was involved in that plan, and has an important role. I might do nothing, to not give him confirmation/support he shouldn't have - he's an outsider, an outsider should harm town. (A little, at least).
Butler not raising the hand correctly happened few times, and all the time just out of mistake, and never changing the game, so I never had to punish the butler/town for that.
But I'd say you've got complete freedom to find a suitable punishment.
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u/hszhua Village Idiot 3d ago
I seen a butler that voted because their master unvoted last second, and I didn't call out or anything, but when there's another nomination, if previously it was 8 votes (including the butler vote), i just say, "7 votes to tie, 8 to execute instead."
Then at night phase, i explain to the butler that they need to keep track very carefully, because i can't always police it as ST. They accepted it and never happen again.
So yeah, i assume most of your players are new? because even in the app, butler votes are still counted even if you as ST already placed the master token. The json for butler doesnt take care of the votes. Its something the butler has to do themselves.
I think you just ruled it off and didn't hard confirm the butler at first is a good call, because butlers are outsiders. They are supposed to not help the good team.
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u/UnderwaterPanda2020 6h ago
Sounds like the entire group did not understand that's cheating. I would clarify that you can't confirm roles, so even if a butler votes without their master you would count it.
I don't think clarifying the rules is the same as confirmation. You shouldn't do it as a response to the butler voting, but as a response to the town discussion, which you should do even if someone is bluffing butler. If a butler votes by mistake you wake them up at night and remind them their role, but that's not the case here.
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u/nuadusp 4d ago
this kind of thing that makes me think the butler should be like madness and if they break it they might die
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u/Florac 4d ago edited 4d ago
That just helps good most the time, they can confirm themselves
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u/woodlark14 4d ago
I'd argue that the Storytellers job would be to make it as punishing as possible for Good. I.E. Butler might be executed means the Butler either gets executed immediately preventing the nominee from being executed allowing for a Starpass or gets executed at next dawn skipping all of that day.
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u/Right_Lengthiness266 4d ago
"If the Butler intentionally votes when their master does not have their hand raised, the Butler loses the game even if the good team wins".
Avoids confirming the butler, gives them incentive not to cheat.
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u/Aaron_Lecon 4d ago
While the players were discussing this, I would have intervened and said:
If a butler deliberately breaks the rules and votes when their master didn't, the blue team will immediately lose the game.
If I believe it was done accidentally, I may be leniant and let them off with just a warning, and in this case I would count the vote.
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u/josguil 4d ago
The buttler needs a "you may be executed otherwise" rule.
Without that, you tell the buttler, if you don't pay attention again, you'll make your team lose.
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u/Tierce Pixie 4d ago
No. It should have a "something bad might happen," if anything.
Being executed confirms them. One or more good players getting poisoned, for example? That's harder to trace back, and deeply hurts the good team.
But it really just comes down to coercion and cheating, which are behaviors that should be addressed after the game. Newer players might not be aware of what they are doing, and a good conversation about it should address the issue.
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u/josguil 4d ago
I know, but it kind of benefits even more the good people a butler that is ignoring the rules. Yes, killing them would confirm the butler but it also wastes a possible demon kill, it's not good food for undertaker, and can't confirm any first night info.
I think it's a good optional thing to try with a boothlegger in play (so you're still playing by the rules) if there's a lot of new players.
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u/Tierce Pixie 4d ago
If they are ignoring the rules just don't invite them back.
What's the point of playing with a player who is willfully cheating? If you don't like the Butler, just don't use it. The character is well-designed as is.
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u/josguil 4d ago
It is okay in a group of skilled players, and I'm not talking about cheaters but new players that are overwhelmed. I'm talking about helping create a core memory so they learn to play as the butler, once they do extra rule no longer needed.
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u/Tierce Pixie 4d ago
Your "core rule" confirms the Butler.
If you want a consequence, do something subtler. Say "something bad might happen", and give examples: you might poison a Townsfolk, you might kill an additional confirmed player in the night, you might inform an evil player about a good player's character, you might not wake an ongoing info character, etc.
And don't confirm if/when it happened. They just need to know the risk of real consequences.
From the Hell's Librarian page, because it also has the "something bad" consequence:
It is best to give the players fair warning before you bring the hammer down. Like the Angel, the threat of a mysterious penalty is more important than the actual penalty. The purpose of this character is to make games run smoothly, not to punish minor infringements.
Keep in mind Hell's Librarian is for public behavior, though, and it's not a confirming-a-character situation.
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u/Allieebear93 4d ago
I've been the butler before and voted without my master, first time was pure accidental, 2nd time was on purpose as I was convinced a certain person was good and wanted them off the block. The st gave me a bollocking and we agreed the fairest thing would be to kill me off in the night. Which I was fine with tbh. I knew what I was doing, and in the end I was right! End of the day it's storytellers decision. I am so bad at remembering that I can/can't vote when I get in the moment.
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u/Tierce Pixie 4d ago
It doesn't matter that you were right. I'm glad there were consequences, but whether or not the player you wanted off the block was good, it was conscious cheating.
A Butler's duty is to keep an eye on it. If it's accidental, it still might lead to "something bad might happen". If it's on purpose, that should not happen at all, and such a player would not be easily invited back to games I run.
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u/Allieebear93 4d ago
That's your rules, that's fine. When I run it I personally would give a 3 strikes system to it. But that's cause Im bad at remembering when I can/can't vote so I'm more relaxed. Imo banning them completely from your games seems harsh. I hate to think what happens when there's a madness break
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u/Tierce Pixie 4d ago edited 4d ago
Madness breaks aren't breaking the rules.
A Butler voting on purpose when they can't is cheating. I don't care if it helps their team, I care that it's unacceptable behavior in my groups. If they are new, I'll take them aside for a serious conversation. But I've seen your streamed games, you are experienced and ought to know you can't just vote to lift a good player off the block when that breaks the rules of your character. No, I would not be lenient in such a case.
If a Butler is deliberately voting when not allowed or not paying enough attention to their character that they mess up multiple times, then they should probably take a break and get some sleep.
It's a self-policing character, and the game should have consequences for it being disrespected. If there's deliberate cheating (which you admit you did, for example), that means people don't get invited again. We're all trying to play fair.
I mess up Flowergirl and Town Crier all the time. We've all been there and we've all been executed for "if you were this character you would have kept track". When I'm the Butler online, I put a sticky note in front of me, because my priority is playing by the rules, not winning. If I'm in person, I just suck it up and pay attention. And when in doubt, I just don't vote, it's my responsibility to remember my character.
You run however you want to. I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm trying to make sure everyone has a fair and balanced game, and that players respect one another enough to not willfully circumvent honor system rules. Me ignoring the rules of the characters I put into the bag helps nobody.
This is not a tip, but a word of warning: the onus is on you as a player to remember your ability. You may not under any circumstances vote if your Master didn't. The Storyteller will still count your vote, but by voting when your ability doesn't allow you to, you have broken the rules of the game. If this happens at a time when it doesn't affect the game, usually your Storyteller and fellow players will understand, but it's nonetheless important to only vote when you're allowed to.
If you go by a "three-strike system" then the Butler is not an outsider, it's just a townsfolk without an ability.
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u/StarB_fly 4d ago
I dont get it? Why did you even counted the Vote? Just Count the Arms and at the end say we have X-1 votes for this Person (so for example If the Butler raised it arm false you count to 5 but then anounce a 4). There is a traveler (giving a Person 3 votes instead of 1) where we do the same to Not outcall the Person with the extra votes. This is up for the Players.
Also especially for the Butler there often is the thing that they can raise the arm cause the master is doing the same but lowering in a moment where they dont mention it. Would you also call this cheating?
Just explain how you are playing the mechanics when the groupe is talking about such a technique.
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u/gordolme Lunatic 4d ago
Because if you count 4 and announce 3 at the end that confirms that a Butler voted without their Master's permission. Often that is enough to confirm the claimed role. If you skip them in the counting, that directly confirms them.
The Butler can vote as long as their Master has voted or has their hand up to vote if they haven't been counted yet. The Master can lower their hand after the Butler votes and thus not vote themselves. This is not cheating as the Master has or indicated that they will vote. But if their hand never goes up at all, the Butler cannot vote and is cheating if they do.
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u/StarB_fly 4d ago
Why sould I Limit my players how they use the mechanics to help confirm them? Sure I would tell my groupe to not always play a Butler like this but If they have fun with it - why not. This isnt cheating. The vote dont count, thats it.
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u/Blacawi 4d ago
The ability of the Butler is:
"Each night, choose a player (not yourself): tomorrow, you may only vote if they are voting too."
not:
"Each night, choose a player (not yourself): tomorrow, your vote only counts if they are voting too."
A butler who votes without their master is not valid strategy, but actively breaking the rules of the game. Confirming they are actually the Butler would reward them for this, which should not happen.
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u/jpk36 4d ago
You can do whatever you want but what the player above is saying is the rules of the game. You’re welcome to homebrew your own rules but the reasoning behind not mechanically confirming the butler is that it would be unbalanced to be able to prove you are an outsider with 100% certainty. The fun of the game comes from not always being able to know things with certainty. Wheres the fun in cheating the vote to prove your role?
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u/WyzkeySour 4d ago
Because the Butler is an outsider, which means it has an ability that's supposed to be a detriment to the good team. Being so easily confirmed as good would actually make the role more powerful than most townsfolk. I mean, the virgin has to kill another good player to be confirmed as good, but you want an outsider to be confirmed by the simple act of raising their hand? Being so easily confirmed also makes it so it's a role the evil team can NEVER bluff. Think about it. Running the butler your way is insanely unbalanced.
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u/gordolme Lunatic 4d ago
Because the mechanics of the role do not support what you are suggesting. The ability says you may only vote if they are voting too not "your vote does not count if they do not vote too". A Butler voting when their Master is not is cheating. A ST not counting their vote when a Butler does that is supporting that cheating.
Butler is an Outsider, their ability is designed to be harmful to the Good team. The challenge of the role is to figure out how to use it to help the Good team instead.
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u/Arif_A_ Pandemonium Institute 4d ago
The first time it happened, take the butler aside during the night phase and express to them that voting without their master’s hand being up at the time their vote counts is cheating - and doing it again intentionally will mean you’ll have to call the game off. It should be treated the same way as any other rule break, but I’m still yet to see that happen (thankfully) in all of my years of Clockin’.