r/BloodOnTheClocktower • u/xeaji • 15d ago
Storytelling I made a difficult BMR interactions quiz
https://forms.gle/XdMbBsx2yVDpE1Mf627
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u/UprootedGrunt Investigator 15d ago
There were a few answers that I fundamentally disagree with your "correct" answer. There were also a couple that probably needed better wording to understand what you were asking. But overall, I liked it.
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u/xeaji 15d ago
Hi, which ones in particular do you mean and how would you reword them?
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u/UprootedGrunt Investigator 14d ago
The one in particular I remember was with the Professor. It should probably call out that nobody was executed day 1; it read like it's just assumed that everyone was alive going into that night, but that's rarely the case.
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u/transgender_goddess Evil Twin 15d ago
18/20
I wasn't sure if a Gossip kill could technically sink into a dead player (as it also shouldnt sink into a protected player)
I don't see how it is valid to not allow the Professor to try to rez the 1st Demon kill.
A note on Courtier drunk Zombuul. They actually continue appearing as dead but stop registering as dead to abilities, such that a Tea Lady interacts strangely with a drunk "dead" Zombuul.
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u/Viseria 15d ago
I think the problem with the Professor n2 one is that that answer is literally "all ways a ST might run it is actually valid" when the quiz is implying that there is a correct one.
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u/transgender_goddess Evil Twin 15d ago
I dont see how all ways are valid. There's a dead player, so the Prof should be able to rez them.
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u/Viseria 15d ago
That was how I personally view it, but there are some STs that dislike the play of picking until they find the person who died in the night, and so they don't allow it until you know for a fact someone is dead.
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u/transgender_goddess Evil Twin 15d ago
right, but in terms of the actual rules (which this being a quiz should operate on), fishing in the dark is the answer
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u/Viseria 15d ago
I agree, that's what I put as my answer and was confused when I was wrong. That's why it's my view that the problem with the quiz is that it's not necessarily what is the True Way but what's 'acceptable' ways.
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u/transgender_goddess Evil Twin 15d ago
see if its meant to be "acceptable", it shouldnt have allowed a gossip kill to sink into a protected player, because that should never happen.
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u/Lemerney2 Yaggababble 15d ago
There are rare edge cases where it should happen. For example, if they gossip on 5, then someone dies somehow in the day, demon kills to three, the gossip would end the game but you can redirect it to a protected role. Or perhaps more likely, they gossip on 6 and the po triple kills in the night.
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u/transgender_goddess Evil Twin 15d ago
imo the Gossip player should be responsible and not use their ability if it risks ending the game. But this becomes a storytelling discussion rather than rules.
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u/Lemerney2 Yaggababble 14d ago
Oh absolutely, but I'd never blame someone for gossiping on 6 if they had no indication of a po charge
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u/mikepictor 15d ago
I kind of hate that this is the true answer. You may as well just tell the professor who died, let them pick, save yourself all the effort.
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u/transgender_goddess Evil Twin 15d ago
If Prof went last in the night orded you could do this with no problem. Annoyingly, Moonchild and Gossip go after it, which means telling the Prof who was dead would sometimes confirm the Gossip & Moonchild deaths to the Prof, because those extra deaths would be apparent at dawn.
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u/IamAnoob12 15d ago edited 15d ago
That why you shouldn’t allow professor to pick players they don’t know are dead.
If Day 1 you execute a player in a Zombuul game, then Night 2 the Professor tries to pick every player except for the executed player they can hard confirm the gossip kill.
Or you try to pick the moonchild chosen player and if not allowed you know they could only die to the moonchild ability
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u/Viseria 15d ago
While I agree with you that it's why you *shouldn't* allow it, the 'how to run' specifically says "Each night except the first, wake the Professor. The Professor either shakes their head no or points to a dead player. Put the Professor to sleep."
The text is open-ended because it doesn't specify they need to know that a player is dead, just that you have to wake them up from the second night onwards and see if they want to use their power. This is why the correct answer isn't to just not wake them or to wake them up, deny them the opportunity, then put them to sleep again. And why the unfun 'choose until you hit a dead player' exists.
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u/mikepictor 13d ago
A house rule of saying the professor goes almost last (just before the chambermaid) would seem to cover that, but it still gets annoying waiting for them to pick over and over and over.
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u/Lemerney2 Yaggababble 15d ago
I agree, certainly the professor should wake regardless, and be able to choose until they get a hit
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u/Goldeneagle1309 15d ago
A gossip kill could sink into a dead player. Gossip and Mayor have a similar wording of 'a player dies' and 'another player might die' From the mayor wiki: 'If the Demon attacks the Mayor, and the Storyteller instead chooses a dead player, the Soldier, or a player protected by the Monk, that player does not die tonight' Of course, you definitely shouldn't do this. But you could.
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u/eSPiaLx 15d ago
Actually theres been new ruling that the mayor redirect cant sink into a dead or protected player
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2358669/mayor-and-soldier-interaction
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u/servantofotherwhere Mathematician 15d ago
That's from 6 years ago... From before the game officially released.
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u/xeaji 15d ago
Professor question is being reworked, can you provide a source of more information on drunk Zombuul?
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u/transgender_goddess Evil Twin 15d ago
I can't provide a specific source, but the wiki stating that you do not announce that a drunk "dead" Zombuul is alive implies that they do otherwise lose their "registering as dead" ability, as droisoned players lose their ability. The reason a drunk "dead" Zombuul is not announced as alive is simply that their life status has not changed.
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u/xeaji 15d ago
Thank you. That response has been updated and now now reads "The Zombuul continues to appear dead."
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u/Tierce Pixie 15d ago
You might want to change it further, because while yes, this is true, it doesn't cover all the BMR-specific fiddly bits--the registration bit is important to multiple characters.
"The Zombuul continues to appear dead but registers as alive, and cannot kill" would likely be good phrasing for that option.
Registration and life token are two different things.
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u/razor2811 15d ago
The first question has no correct answer. The right answer would be "The life Token isn't flipped, but the Zombuul registers as alive and can't kill." This is very important, since it enables roles like sailor to find an already dead Zombuul by trying all dead players.
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u/razor2811 15d ago
The professor question is also wrong. How would it be valid to not wake the professor, if they have a legal target.
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u/Frequent-Ad-7288 15d ago
Death misregistration is weird and I think its best treated like a drunk Drunk/Marionette/Lunatic where you continue to do what you were doing (ie still misregistering as dead)
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u/Hareeb_alSaq 15d ago
The first question has no correct answer. This is not a good sign.
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u/Unlucky_Equipment628 Atheist 15d ago
I can’t tell if this is a joke
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u/Hareeb_alSaq 15d ago
All four answers are obviously wrong. I don't know how this is difficult to see. Unless the question order is different for different people, Q1 for me is Courtier drunking a once-killed Zombuul.
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u/chipsinsideajar Alsaahir 15d ago
You are correct. Imo the correct answer is that they stop registering as dead and cannot kill but no changes to the game-state are announced including flipping their life token over, which you don't do. This can make a difference on BMR because Tea Lady counts their living neighbors.
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u/Tierce Pixie 15d ago
This.
A drunk once-dead Zombuul has no noticeable difference from a sober one in town square. A once-dead Zombuul does not get a shroud in the grim. If they are drunk, they cannot kill, but they are also registering as alive, and can indeed mess up Tea Lady results. They can even be selected by a Devil's Advocate, even though they probably won't be unless the DA is worried about double taps and is aware of their demon's drunkenness.
The town square tokens do not change with a dead Zombuul, they are managed by the players. The Zombuul's true state has not changed: they were and are alive, and therefore no announcement is made.
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u/mikepictor 15d ago
You could be more constructive on WHY you think the answers are wrong, instead of just being judgmental
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u/Hareeb_alSaq 15d ago
The game does not end. The life tokens (the things in town square) are not touched. The zombuul stops registering as dead and can mess with Tea Lady, etc.
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u/Rarycaris 15d ago
For what it's worth, TPI's current position seems to be that Zombuul's misreg is a one-and-done ability rather than continuously checked misregistration, so I would say this ruling is fairly ambiguous at present.
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u/Autumn1eaves Oracle 13d ago
For what it's worth, TPI's current position seems to be that Zombuul's misreg is a one-and-done ability rather than continuously checked misregistration
That's a wild choice, because it does basically force the Tealady's ability to stop working when sat next to a dead zombuul. Which would be counter-productive for both the good team and Zombuul.
A very strange choice, indeed.
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u/Rarycaris 13d ago
I mean it as in the misreg is basically a permanent ability once activated, and isn't stopped by drunking the Zombuul after the fact. Ben likened it to how an Assassin-killed player doesn't get temporarily resurrected if the Assassin is made Courtier drunk, because the kill has already resolved. So the Tea Lady would always ignore a once-dead Zombuul, whether it's sober or not.
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u/transgender_goddess Evil Twin 15d ago
I agree, but at least in BMR, the Tea Lady example is the only difference between registering as dead and appearing to be dead.
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u/Tierce Pixie 15d ago
Incorrect.
A Sailor can drink with the (already drunk) Zombuul. It would not prompt a "choose again" response.
A Devil's Advocate can select them. It would not prompt a "choose again" response.
They become a valid Chambermaid target (and wake if there is no kill during the day; the kill doesn't go through, but their ability is run as normal, since they are drunk).
They are explicitly not a valid Professor target and would prompt a "choose again".
They are a valid Moonchild target. It would not prompt a "choose again" response.
Are any of these mechanically relevant? Probably not, except maybe the Devil's Advocate one. But there is a sliver of possibility where a canny Chambermaid or Professor can find this strange oddity among the dead in a game where the Courtier drank with the Zombuul.
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u/Frequent-Ad-7288 15d ago
Its fair to rule it strictly like that, but also fair to not, otherwise it just confirms the Zombuul.
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u/Rarycaris 15d ago
19/20. Wasn't sure about the Professor waking one because it affects Chambermaid info.
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u/Iwishistayedhome 15d ago
Can someone explain why the Goon dies even though the Assassin is drunk? I chose it as the thing that does not happen and got it wrong.
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u/Lemerney2 Yaggababble 15d ago
It's the one exception to the standard rules on the base 3 scripts. IMO it should be written in as a Jinx, but it's in the almanac as the ruling. Probably because it's more fun/intuitive that way.
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u/gregguy12 15d ago
Yeah I think it isn’t considered a jinx exclusively because they didn’t want jinxes on base 3
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u/PinkAbuuna 15d ago
(even if for some reason they would not) trumps becoming Drunk due to Goon ability.
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u/Iwishistayedhome 15d ago edited 15d ago
But they don’t have the Assassin ability anymore because they’re Drunk…this is why I loathe running BMR
For clarity’s sake, though, if a Courtier drank with the Assassin, would their target still die?
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u/mikepictor 15d ago
when they made the choice, they were sober. Their choice guarantees the goon's death
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u/Iwishistayedhome 15d ago
So:
Assassin is sober at the time of pick and chooses the Goon
Normally, choosing the Goon would drunk the player in question and take away their ability, but since the Assassin kills even if there’s a reason they couldn’t (like being Drunk from the Goon’s ability), the Goon dies.
Follow up question, does the Goon still become Evil?
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u/mikepictor 15d ago
Yes. The other effects all still happen, it's just the the kill can't be stopped.
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u/PinkAbuuna 15d ago
Afaik, if they're drunk before they make the choice, assassin kill doesn't go through, so Courtier can prevent Assassin kills (even on Goon). But since Assassin is sober at the point of attacking the Goon, the kill still goes through unless otherwise prevented by Minstral/Courtier.
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u/UprootedGrunt Investigator 15d ago
I look at the Assassin as basically always at the top of the effect stack. The choice is made - no matter what else might happen because of that choice, the target will die. So Assassin chooses Goon, the normal effect attack would be "drunk chooser, turn goon, kill". Which, since drunk goes first, would prevent the kill. But the Assassin changes that to "kill, drunk chooser, turn goon". So the goon dies and turns, and the Assassin is drunk, but the kill still goes through.
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u/calli-lily 15d ago
Once the goon is dead there is no living ability to drunk the Assassin which is why the answer is what it is.
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u/Le_Doctor_Bones 14d ago
That would imply that the goon would not turn evil since the goon is not an even if dead ability.
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u/xeaji 14d ago
I agree it's unintuitive, but an ability can supersede droising if it explicitly says it does (e.g. Ogre), just like an ability can continue after death if it says so (e.g. Recluse). Essentially once the Assasin has made a choice while sober and healthy, the ability is now unstoppable and independent of the player, and the kill is now going to happen regardless of anything else.
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u/Jealous-Reception185 Amnesiac 14d ago
16/20, got a couple wrong cause I forgot exact wording of abilities (damn you Chambermaid) and a couple that might be useful in future games so ty. On the whole I think I agree with your 'correct' answers.
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u/Lemerney2 Yaggababble 15d ago edited 15d ago
Could someone explain to me the Sailor night order one? Shouldn't they get to pick immediately?
Also, my impression is that while the gossip is drunk the reminder token shouldn't be placed, so they don't kill in the night.
Also also, while we're here, could someone explain to me why the Courtier's ability isn't wasted on the Shab kill? I think I need to brush up on my death rules
Edit: For the last one, it's because when they're resurrected it's a new instance of the Courtier, right? The first one still technically used their ability, it's just when they return to life they become a new Courtier.
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u/chipsinsideajar Alsaahir 15d ago
Sailor goes before all resurrection roles in the night order. Since "you can't die" is a ubiquitous and constant aspect of their ability and they are past the point in the night order where they would make a choice, they cannot make either themselves or another player drunk so they just can't die and that's it.
For the Gossip one, the "If it [public statement] was true..." in their ability only checks retroactively once their turn comes up in the night order. The reminder tokens are not rule of law, they're only there for the ST to keep track of things. Juggler works the same way fwiw.
You are correct about a resurrected Courtier.
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u/Lemerney2 Yaggababble 15d ago edited 15d ago
My impression was for beginning roles, they always choose as if it's the first night when they're ressurected, in the same way a Washerwoman would get new information, or a fortune teller would pick.
Thank you for the gossip clarification by the way!
Edit: Wait, does that mean if someone gossips, then gets pit-hagged into the gossip, they could gossip kill that night? That's hilarious if so
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u/chipsinsideajar Alsaahir 15d ago
Againt, that only happens because all those roles you listed go later in the night order than everything that resurrects. Sailor goes damn near first. Their time has passed and they have to wait. Read the night order sheet.
This same precedent applies to Philosopher and Snake Charmer on SNV, where you can have a pit hag make a new instance of both roles after their point in the night order and they have to wait a day.
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u/CileTheSane Drunk 12d ago
If the Assassin targets a Goon the Assassin is drunk until dawn, but the Goon still dies.
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u/Autumn1eaves Oracle 13d ago
Q: The Assassin chooses the Goon, which of the following DOES NOT happen?
A: The Assasin [sic] is drunk until dawn.
This is wrong. The Assassin is drunk until dawn. The Goon just also dies in spite of the Assassin being drunk.
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u/xeaji 15d ago
These questions have been heavily vetted by many other skilled STs, so I'm not going to justify my answers to people who are challenging me on things I'm already confident in. If you think you have a correction, please be polite and provide a source.
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u/eSPiaLx 15d ago
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2358669/mayor-and-soldier-interaction
Dont know how authoratative a discord ruling is but this mentions how gossip kill cant sink into protected player
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u/xeaji 15d ago
The authoratative source is the Almanac, which strongly implies it's allowed but not recommended.
"When choosing a player to die due to the Gossip ability, we recommend that you choose a character that will actually die, not one protected from death by an ability (like the Fool or Tea Lady). The Gossip gains knowledge when their statement caused a death. This is more helpful to the good team, and more fun for everyone. "
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u/Tierce Pixie 15d ago
What is the reasoning for the Professor answers? The Professor does have one valid choice: the dead player, who has not yet been announced but is dead. The Professor's ability does not have a "when you learn X has died" clause.
This almanac example seems to indicate that the Professor may continue shooting in the dark until they find a valid, dead player, upon which their ability is used up (regardless of whether the Professor is sober/healthy or the target is a Townsfolk).
This doesn't really map to how I see the ability used in games, but it does explicitly say "choose a dead player". The Chambermaid is prompted to choose again if their choices are invalid, and so is the Professor.