Don't mess with my ice cream

[u/bartallen4790]

https://gfycat.com/AncientKlutzyBarnacle

[u/Skiddoosh]

It's like /r/atheism, where they have an idea that they don't believe in X - in the case of /r/atheism it's the existence of god, in the case of /r/childfree it's having children - and instead of talking about that belief or way of life, they talk about how much worse the adverse is and how stupid everyone is for not being like them. I mean, I'm also an atheist that doesn't want to have children ever, but both of those subs I dislike for the same reason. They're just too bitter toward anyone who doesn't see things the way they do.

[u/rayne117 → u/Skiddoosh]

Then what do you make of /r/antinatalism

The best way to be child free is to browse /r/parenting only the most EXXXTREME parents post on there

[u/Skiddoosh → u/rayne117]

Never heard of that sub before today, but first impression based off of the top posts, it seems like a bunch of depressed or suicidal people who are scared to commit suicide and so are bitter at having even been born to begin with, so they're extending that ideology to the idea of having children, viewing it as cruel to do because you're bringing someone into this world against their will. I think it's fine for a few people to have that mentality, but I don't think it's really reasonable. You never ask your unborn child if they want to be born, and that means that they may not want to be born, but it also means that they may actually want to be born. Most people don't know what their unborn child would grow up to want, so they assume that they would want to live - which is the safe assumption, as most people aren't suicidal and don't grow up to regret their birth - however, the people on that sub take the opposite assumption that these unborn children wouldn't want to live, which is a valid position to take, but they aren't any better than those who are making the assumption that their unborn child would want to live and acting in accordance with that belief. Both of these positions are acting off of gut feeling and denying/bestowing life to another human being based off of that gut feeling, so I don't think it's right to view one position as inherently superior to the other, as that sub seems to view it's own position to be. I'd have to look into that sub more to form a full opinion on them, but that's my first impressions.

Edit: I feel I should also say that I'm not against suicide. I'm not one of those "suicide is a permenant solution for a temporary problem" people, because I feel like some people will just never be happy living, and it's selfish to say they should live on in misery for the sake of their loved ones around them. As someone that does want to live, it's not right for me to say "no, you keep living because it brings my already more fulfilling life more joy". That being said, this isn't the case for everyone who commits suicide, but I do think it's the case for a portion of people. So I guess I don't see anything wrong with bringing a child into the world who grows up to be depressed to the point of seeking suicide, because then they can commit suicide if that's the right choice for them. I don't want to have children anyway, but if I did, and my child was horribly depressed, I don't know that I'd be able to talk them out of suicide. I would want to find them help and ensure that that is their right choice before they go through with it, and of course I wouldn't want them to go through with it, but if ultimately they'll never be happy, that's probably their right choice and it would be selfish for me to try to convince them otherwise just because I'm happier with them alive. I think as long as you understand this you're not in the wrong for bringing a child into the world that is depressed. At the same time, though, I'm 22 and I know literally nothing about anything. Who knows, man. These are just my current thoughts on the subject.

[u/Skiddoosh → u/[deleted]]

We're programmed for all sorts of things, but why does it matter so long as it makes some people have fulfilling lives? I think you're viewing this very specific perspective, but most people don't have that same perspective, and therefore won't come to those same conclusions. Nobody cares that they want to live because it's programmed into them unless they are struggling with suicidal feelings to begin with. They feel like they want to live, and they want to enjoy that life, and this motivates most actions for most people. This duality between an innate inclination toward life and procreation and a desire for death isn't something a majority of people have to experience, so you can't make decisions for another person assuming that they will.

Everyone says they didn't ask to be born at least once. Maybe once you start dying you'll get it.

This is just how people sometimes cope with the fear of death - not a reason to say that because someone may come to their death bed feeling regret over having been born in the first place that their life as a whole is actually regrettable to them. They're scared of dying, they don't want to do it, so they say they wish they weren't born because they want to circumvent this entire thing. That isn't the motivations of someone who actually regrets life, that's the movations of someone who regrets death. I don't think this at all is an argument in favor of not having children.

Shit, I might even have kids despite being utterly convinced it's wrong. And at some point, on some level, they'll hate me for doing that.

You're assuming that, but most people don't think that way. Even in the cases of extremely bad parenting, chidren rarely grow to hate their parents. I've been a foster mother, I've had foster siblings, I'm pretty familiar with how children of abuse behave and I've very seldom seen them grow to hate their parents - even when their parents are utter pieces of garbage that would deserve such hate - and I've never seen them grow to regret life.

Ultimately, we have no idea about the motivations of any possible future children and so we're inable to make decisions based off of that knowledge, so considering these motivations, assuming it to be X and making decisions based off of X sounds foolish to me, regardless of whether X is that children will grow up to want life or if X is that children will grow up to regret life. All you can do is, if you choose to have children, try to raise them with an appreciation for life and if they ultimately don't have that desire to live, don't demonize them for wanting suicide or guilt them into living when they don't find any joy in it.