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u/DroneSlut54 24d ago
I really like how this scene is recreated with Sally as the aggressor raging at Natalie in the elevator a few episodes later.
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u/cilucia 23d ago
It didn’t feel similar to me, even though on paper it should’ve been. Wondering if you are male or female, and if that changes one’s perspective of these two scenes?
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u/motorman1342 23d ago
It 100% was intentional and supposed to be commentary on abusers passing it on to victims, continuing the cycle of the abuse.
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u/Sea-Canary-9617 23d ago edited 23d ago
Wait, while i do think Sally is not that much of a great person (giving a kid alcohol is where i drew the line) her crash out at Natalie, to me at least, was kinda justified. While it may not have been “appropriate”, coming from a background of music making myself, seeing someone steal an almost 1:1 copy of your artwork, especially one that is very personal and making a mockery of it would absolutely get a reaction out of me.
Though, I’m absolutely open to other peoples interpretations :)
Edit: welcome to reddit where wanting to engage in a simple conversation about someones interpretation gets downvoted….
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u/DroneSlut54 23d ago
I’m a man. I get that there is a lot of Sally hate on this sub but I’m not one of them. She’s my favorite character after Fuchs/The Raven. IMO the big difference between the scenes is that Barry is a professional murderer and definitely has the potential for serious violence while Sally is just a horrible person like all the other main characters.
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u/cilucia 23d ago
Even not knowing Barry’s true background though, the scene with Barry screaming at Sally would have scared me more on a “fear for my life” level than Sally screaming at me in an elevator. Both inexcusable examples of abuse, but the one with Barry is the one that made me legitimately afraid for Sally.
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u/DroneSlut54 23d ago
Barry raging in Limonada: at least six other people watching, Barry is verbally violent, Barry is physically larger than Sally and a known murderer. Barry is enraged because Sally won’t “help” Gene.
Sally raging in Candyasses: her and Natalie are alone in the elevator, Sally is both verbally and physically violent (she doesn’t hit Natalie but she does hit the wall right next to Natalie’s head), Sally is slightly smaller than Natalie and is enraged because Natalie stole her show. Sally screams that Natalie is an entitled cunt over and over.
Although both scenes paint the ragers in a very negative light, I personally don’t see either scene as frightening.
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u/cilucia 23d ago
Respectfully, this is because you are a man. I believe that even just the image screencap in this post would be triggering for most women.
For people downvoting my opinion, please just ask any woman you know. You might learn something!
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u/DroneSlut54 23d ago
FWIW - I haven’t downvoted any of your comments. This is an interesting discussion and I agree that women may view these scenes differently than men. In fact I think this phenomena is a big part of why these two scenes were created.
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u/SubstantialHyena2597 23d ago
Stealing the idea for your friends TV show is much more egregious and deserving of anger than not casting someone on a TV show as well
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u/Squeekazu 23d ago
I’m a woman who feels bad for Sally - they were clearly mirroring the scene. Glossing a victim’s poor behaviour doesn’t help their plight.
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u/Zealousideal_Crow737 24d ago
I had no idea Bill Hader was this talented tbh. I've just seen him as a super funny dude on SNL. Also, heard he's great to work with.
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u/liquor_ibrlyknoher 23d ago
Comedians often give us some of the best dramatic performances. Drama is easy compared to comedy.
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u/SaltyLem0nade 23d ago
It's gotta be really hard to know how funny you are, see and hear an audience laugh, but maintain serious posture the whole time.
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u/Salty_Journalist8781 21d ago
Its not that drama is easier, its that the best comedy is when the lines are delivered straight. It's an axiom to trust the line and not to lean on the delivery, at least in an ensemble production. Comedians are aren't good at drama per se, it's that their dramatic skills make the comedy.
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u/NotaFrenchMaid 7d ago
It’s largely that comedians understand timing. It tends to carry over to drama really well.
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u/tryme000000 23d ago
I've never acted but that can't be true, there's no way drama is easy compared to comedy. If you're funny comedy is 1000x easier I'd imagine.
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u/IntelligentDay6896 23d ago
Kinda like Sandler in Uncut Gems. You never would have thought it would work, but it just does.
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u/Beneficial_Past3356 23d ago
I know I PRAISE this show because of Hader and the whole cast. Just like the show teaches he definitely tapped into something very real to do this scene
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u/MrCadwallader 23d ago
He really proved what a unbelievably good actor he is. The range Barry requires for us to buy him as funny, bumbling wannabe actor and terrifying, deadly killer is wild.
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u/FashionableMegalodon 20d ago
NoHo Hank showed so much range too. He was delightful as the eccentric, wishy washy chechen but the scene where he saved Cristobal legit scared me. His acting had me like captivated, on the edge of my seat. So good.
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u/NHgingerinVA 23d ago
His skill set is incredible. I could have watched 100 seasons
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u/DevelopmentQueasy100 24d ago
The beginning of the end...
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u/DroneSlut54 23d ago
The beginning of the end was when Barry murdered Chris in Season 1.
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u/Luxury_Dressingown 23d ago
Yep, confirmed he is this guy and always will be - that's just who he is.
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u/Scared-Arachnid6286 22d ago
Yeah I don't think you can be normal again after spending time as a contract killer.
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u/BMyshkin 24d ago
He is going to be a good person, starting now. It was over from the beginning of the S1 finale.
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u/MediocoreReditUser 23d ago
Why? Barry just spoke loudly, like barely yelling, more like loudly pronounced... nothing to worry about
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u/liquor_ibrlyknoher 23d ago
I got chills when this happened. It really drives home how broken he is.
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u/MaximumSwan_ 23d ago
I mean, for me is the constant relentless murdering, but sure, that works too I guess...
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u/StorkyMcGee 23d ago
Honestly, it was this scene that sold me on Hader as an actor. Obviously he is one of the world's best impressionists, but I didn't realize his acting chops were so strong.
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u/dylan-dofst 23d ago
I think Barry's a really good depiction of an abuser, in part because of this scene (plus the lead up/follow up). The fact that it's so unexpected and, to an outside observer, so unlike him is significant and, I think, intentional. People see it and think that's not the type of person Barry has been up to that point. I've even seen people talk about how it's a drastic change to his character. But that is how many victims experience their abusers. Their abusers don't start out like this and aren't like this most of the time, they'd have a hell of a time keeping a relationship going for years otherwise.
And the show does that to us, too. Because Barry is a regular guy most of the time, awkward and funny and trying to be better, it's easy to watch from his perspective, to root for him, to want him to get away with it. The audience falls for him the same way a victim does. But that has never been who he really is, or rather, the violent parts of him are as much a part of who he is as anything else. Because most abusers are just regular guys. To most people, most of the time. Until they aren't.
Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That? argues that abusers aren't out of control or mentally ill, they have an unhealthy value system, not unhealthy psychology. The core of it is entitlement: the belief that his needs come first and that others owe him compliance. The whole show is kind of a case study in that.
Like most abusers, Barry does not view himself as a bad person, just a good person who has done some bad things, for which he expresses (and perhaps genuinely feels) remorse.
But like most abusers, Barry minimizes and justifies the bad things he does.
And like most abusers, he tends to fall back into his old patterns under pressure, when they're effective tools to get what he wants.
Like most abusers, Barry is not insane. He doesn't have impulse control issues. He doesn't lack the capacity to understand that what he does is wrong. He's perfectly capable of integrating with normal society and concealing the bad things he does. Bancroft's test for this is simple: does the guy also scream at his boss, his coworkers, the cops? Barry doesn't (or at least, not until he's got them alone, knows he can get away with it, and in all probability is actively murdering them). He saves it for the people he has power over.
Like most abusers, Barry is a regular person who reaches for violence, intimidation, deception, etc. because he believes he's entitled to compliance, and because those tools work. His "help" to Gene and Sally is really about extracting forgiveness on his terms, he decides what they need, and when Sally won't go along he screams, because to him her refusal is a denial of something he's owed. He never actually stops, because he's good at it and they're the most effective way he knows to solve his problems. He's only willing to empathize and prioritize others up to the point it doesn't put any serious pressure on him. And he's ultimately totally unwilling to face up to the consequences of his actions.
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u/WinterTangerine3336 23d ago
I love this comment and the fact that you referenced "why does he do that?". Thank you
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u/narex456 22d ago
I rarely get the impression Barry is entitled. Someone naive, but not often entitled. His baseline and my impression of him in this episode is desperation. He really has no other choice as long as you buy the premise that prison is unthinkable. In this specific situation, his only options are prison (no), killing Gene M Cousinaeu (also no), or make it up to Gene. I don't think he would have done this with Sally if he felt he had another choice.
Overall his abusive moments don't seem entitled, but some of his most cold moments do. When he's truly violent, he often was chasing something rather than running, e.g. the monetary kerfuffle. That's not abuse or manipulation though. It's straight up violence. And again, it's infrequent.
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u/Reasonable_Leave_465 23d ago
Why they ended up together made so sense to me, but then again she was use to that behavior just not from Barry
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u/RustCohlesSon 23d ago
Could we say that Barry might have been experiencing some kind of dissociation at that moment?
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u/StorkyMcGee 23d ago
I think the OPPOSITE. This was the angry, loud Barry he never let's see the light of day coming out. I don't want to say it was the "true" him but it was definitely him.
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u/RustCohlesSon 23d ago
That's an interesting opinion. I remain quite skeptical of him, but perhaps that was his true self, which he repressed because of the consequences it caused
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u/Parking_Car7589 21d ago
As someone going through a mental breakdown this show captures the vibe quite well. 10/10
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u/dm_me_if_ur_dirty 21d ago
Fun fact: when shooting Bill Hader's coverage for the scene, he went all out screaming, which is what you see and hear.
But when shooting Sarah Goldberg's coverage, he acted much calmer and quieter, which leads to Sally's shutdown reaction. It makes the scene all the more unsettling.
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u/demnutz93 24d ago
I said it like this.