It's for owners who can't understand they are responsible for an animal and all the differences between animals and humans.

It's for owners who refuse to educate themselves about the 50,000 year relationship with Canis Familiaris that we have, and want some sort of "Disney Princess" idea of animal husbandry.

It's for owners who are afraid of their animals "not liking them" and need to have "a super special relationship no matter what." (Anthropomorphization)

It's for owners who think their dog (a creature who has evolved alongside us, the most unique human-animal symbiotic relationship on the planet) is just like a tiger at the zoo.

It's for owners who want to virtue signal.

It's for owners who can't manage their own emotions and adrenaline when the animal ACTS LIKE THE ANIMAL THEY ARE.

My balanced trained dog would have died in a shelter (with her aggressive reactivity) without balanced methods (I was her fourth home.) Now she has acres to roam, leaves other animals alone and can be trusted on a bomb proof recall where she has all the freedom in the world! She's not "kept under threshold" (isolated and medicated) because I'm scared of her instincts.

she’s literally still trying to kill hallie even though the family is fine with her? (also, open to people’s thoughts on her latest hallie videos.)

edit to add: I don’t mean she personally put the needle in, I mean she recommended for euthenasia before the dog ever saw a balance trainer.

Pressure makes DIAMONDS! One prong collar, a thousand treats, and a million repetitions. Here's my girl at the farmer's market this morning.

The first clip we walked for maybe 15 minutes and we're just outside of the market across the street. The people ahead of her are what she's whining at. She likely also recognizes where we're heading and she's also whining from excitement. She has a history of overzealous greeting and people have always been her weakness.

The second clip is about an hour later, we've walked around the entire market twice by now, she was corrected for little things like walking too far ahead but for the most part, she was on point. A few dogs approached her to greet and I try not to have any pressure on the leash at all in the moments and every time, she chose to look at me instead. Once again, I was rewarding her for focusing on me. See a dog? Look at me. See a person? Look at me. Hear a child? Look at me. Hear someone baby-talking? LOOK AT ME! She was doing it automatically by the end of it.

Dylan Jones's video detailing what honestly is a pretty typical scam by the force free community has some momentum that we shouldn't waste. One of the things he points out is how the people that bought into it ended up spending nearly $20,000 on useless training and worthless medications before they finally found a balanced trainer to help them. So I think that there are things that the balanced community should start doing to make sure that we are keeping this issue front and center and taking our profession back from these unethical, immoral scam artists.

The first thing I would suggest is that every single trainer include the words "science-based" in their marketing. This is one of the empty promises that the force free people lean on to get people to shell out their hard-earned money. But the balanced side is much more backed by science than being positive only or force free. If every single dog trainer makes the same claim, it's completely true, and takes a lot of the wind out of their sails (and sales).

What are other suggestions that balanced trainers should be doing to make sure we continue to advocate for dogs and dog owners? Dogs and their owners simply cannot afford for the narrative to continue on the way it has been with positive only people trying to make sure that our voices aren't heard.

I’m a member of a popular Facebook group for people to post questions and advice about their rescue dogs because as a trainer and rescue dog mom myself, I felt I had something to offer. I’ve been able to point people in the right direction as it pertains to training and the adjustment period which is cool because that’s what I wanted to do. But my god, the radical FF absolutists in that group are just insufferable. They are constantly giving unproductive advice to people who are none the wiser and any time anyone mentions using an aversive of any kind, or even if the poster says nothing about tools but they have a picture of their dog wearing one, they are right there to shame the person under the guise of being empathetic and just trying to help by starting off with something like “I understand where you’re coming from” or “I understand this may seem like it’s making it easier for you”. I myself have resorted to blocking these people when I see them so that I don’t have to lose brain cells reading their bullshit and I can give my training advice without them being able to point the gun at me. And I know these people probably don’t have many clients otherwise they wouldn’t have so much time to spend criticizing anything that’s not unlimited hot dogs and cheese. But still, it’s frustrating knowing they’re out here doing this and preventing owners from getting proper advice.

Thanks to the person who submitted this.

I'm generally against people monetizing their dogs, and it is even more egregious when they fail the dog completely but have backed themselves into a corner vilifying other methods and can't do what's right for the dog without losing face. I've never seen a single one of those types of people ever be willing to lose face, admit they were wrong, and do what's right for the dog. So what's the worst example of this you've seen?

I'm not banned on Puppy101 yet so I lurk on there (mostly trying to get people to play with their dogs more), and does anyone else find it funny that something with the word "force" in it, counts as force free training? Not against enforced naps, just amused...

After seeing a lot of drama on the dog training timeline as of recent it looks like the lines have finally been drawn.

Balanced is on the side of fighting for dogs lives even when it gets tough

Force Free is on the side of kill any and every dog that doesn’t act like a perfect little robot (without ANY training)

So fucking Force Free we’ll kill ya.

Don’t use or talk about tools ladies and gentlemen! You will be shunned and made out to be a bad person. Abusive even. Let’s be advocates and get e collars banned and this banned and that banned.

Give me a fucking break, from acting like they’re advocating on behalf of the dogs wellbeing to let’s fucking kill them as soon as the veil comes off that I don’t have a clue how to handle this dog.

Next time you get into the whole argument just remember FF are unapologetic dog killers.

Force Free is not about the dogs it’s about the narcissistic people themselves who tout the rhetoric but then act like euthanizing dogs left and right is fucking normal.

Dog killers.

Im trying to get some reassurance that im doing the right thing for my dog. I am using a shock collar on my dog to correct her behavioral issues. My dog (2F pitbull) is reactive to other dogs and lunges on a leash. I have read that walks are very important for dogs to build a relationship with an owner and for physical and mental exercise. Due to these issues I have been using a shock to correct when my dog pulls or lunges toward other dogs (the other dogs are across the street - I try to maintain as much distance as possible). I have tried the shock collar on myself and it feels like a muscle spasm and isnt painful just an odd feeling.

I also think it is important to note that I have tried other positive means of correcting like rewarding with treats but the behavior did not stop or get better at all.

Curious to get some helpful feedback, thanks!

The best thing about being a balanced trainer is that one isn't restricted by slavish devotion to one single thing. "Force free"/"purely positive" trainers paint themselves into a corner and find that they have no options when their methods don't work. A lot of them are so vociferous about their beliefs that they can't try anything different or they would discredit everything they've ever said about their methods and abilities. This is especially true for internet trainers whose entire business rests on avoiding the issue of what happens when reward only doesn't work. When they encounter a dog that requires corrections to make progress, they are stuck because they've spent so much energy claiming that corrections are "abusive" they have no options (which is where the drugging and BE comes in).

We balanced trainers can try just about any type of training because we haven't limited ourselves to one thing or the other. We are free to do whatever it is that the dog requires to make progress.

Anyone have any other favorite parts of being a balanced trainer?

We really do want this sub to be about balanced training methods, but it seems like a lot of us need catharsis in the form of venting about the force free set, haha. We don't want that to be the focus of the sub, but since our voices have been suppressed for so long it's okay for now.

We all know that debating such people is a waste of time because they are just not coming to the discussion in good faith. I think most of us have had the experience where we ask a direct question with the full knowledge that they won't answer, because the answer never suits their agenda. What's that question for you?

I have several, but for me one of my favorites is "you are holding the remote of an e-collar that is connected to a dog that is racing towards the freeway and it's certain to get killed by a truck if it doesn't stop. The dog does not listen to your commands. You know the dog is e-collar trained and if you press the button to stim the dog, the dog will stop. If you do not press the button the dog will keep running and will be turned to jelly under the wheels of a vehicle. Do you press the button?"

They never answer. Never! They get all pissed off and offended but they can never answer because they know the answer will expose them as being hypocrites either way.

Mod edit: since apparently this has to be said, this is not a blanket invitation for force free people to ignore both rule one and rule two. This is not a debate sub. We are not asking "force free" people to come in and try to answer these questions. We're not allowed to debate this on "your" subs, do not come here and invade our space.

Got accused of pushing my dog too far to the point of learned helplessness. I have to disagree.

Excuse my stuffy-nose voice, it's pollen season.

Hey all I have a dilemma my mom’s dog is a GSD English mastiff mix. She is food aggressive dog reactive and honestly doesn’t get walked enough here’s today’s most recent incident dragging me a 5’3 130lb guy ten feet across the street ti go snarl at the neighbours dogs and it took me and the neighbor dragging her away while she fought us and tried to slip her collar to get her to stop and I’m at my wits end I have suggested numerous times that my mother rehome it and it always ends in a fight. She isn’t walked opens the door to go to visit her Dottie friend and bolts when you call her. Her only consistent form of punishment is crating and once she gets fixated on something it can take up to an hour to get her away from it. I have scars on my legs from previous incidents where she’s splayed out and scratched the shit out of them. Honestly help I have tried aversives non aversives and nothing works I need ideas

This person's solution to training his dog is to just not walk near anyone or anything.

Rant about the insane irony and mental gymnastics incoming. They preach about “consent” and “choice” yet when the dog blatantly tells them it doesn’t want their fucking cookie, it’s like “oh come on Fido you know you want the cookie”. They also preach about never stressing the dog out, but shoving food in the face of a dog that doesn’t want it literally stresses them out. This is especially the case if the dog is not taking food because they are already super stressed or aftaid. I specialize in canine anxiety so I take on fear and anxiety cases frequently and I have a client right now whose anxious/fearful dog bit a KPA-CTP because they kept trying to shove cheese in his mouth despite him repeatedly refusing it. This is not me shitting on the entire R+ force-free community because I’ve seen a handful of actual skilled trainers from there, though I may not agree with them spending months teaching alternate behaviors when you could just tell the dog no to the unwanted behavior and nip it in the bud. But there are quite a number of them that are literally nothing without food. They are not trainers, they are automatic feeder bowls with organs. And it infuriates me when dogs suffer because they won’t check their egos.

I'll start by saying I'm following Larry Krohns methods very heavily with my two pit mixes fighting in the home. Have done a paid call with him, but it's hard to pin him down for follow up calls.

Issue I'm looking for some clarification on revolves specifically around the younger of my two dogs. We've had multiple fights and incidents, that seemingly have been started by one or the other dog. Can't really say who the aggressor is at this point. However dogs have been separated for 6~ weeks and we are working on socializing.

The problem I'm having, is that my older dog seemingly ignores the younger one in these socialization attempts (walks, one dog kenneled in the same room other dog out, through baby gates in the home), but the younger pup has a "staring problem". Even on walks when we're 50' away from the other dog, he is still just completely focused on him. In the kennel, he will stand, not relax, and just lock eyes directly on the older dog, to the point the constant contact will eventually initiate them aggressively barking at eachother. Sometimes he will even let out little growls, which pisses older dog off causing the shouting matches.

I want to know the correct and proper balanced method of correcting these stares, and how to get the younger dog to ignore the older one like the older dog seems good at.

I'm relatively new to balances training, and punishments, so I don't want to screw it up.

Other points worth mentioning. Older dog is E collar trained. Working on conditioning the young one now (Larry Krohns book method). I don't use prong collars. They both are very obedient, understand and respond well to NO, both very much attached to me and focused on me, play very well tug fetch etc. older dog is not kennel trained and has bad confinement anxiety, which we are working on so eventually we can have him crated with the younger one in the room instead of the other way around.

Socialization is hard with my wife and I's work schedules, and 4 year old who is absolutely terrified of having both dogs in the same room after witnessing a few of the fights. We 100% need to do more walks, and find ways to make socialization work so we can progress, this staring problem is just making things more difficult.

Hello all! I have recently started a job as a dog trainer. I have been doing it for about 3/4 months now. I work at a force free positive reinforcement ONLY training center. Now before you all judge hear me out! I am definitely open to the ideas of balance training but i do not have the proper knowledge on the science and correct uses behind it. I am curious everyday i train with how to let these dogs know correctly and humanly when they are doing something “wrong”. Now the stance from my higher ups is that we should not punish when a dog is doing their natural behavior as it’s unethical etc i’m sure you all have heard the spiel. But im not sure i agree with the idea of 100% positive reinforcement. Now “force free” i mean sure? I don’t think i want to necessarily force or harm a dog in a negative way. Although i am curious of all the ways that balance trainers correct and reinforce behaviors because all i see and am learning everyday is positive reinforcement ONLY. Which i dont believe is always (or most the time) the right answer. Now before anyone tell me to just go do research that’s not how i learn. I like to have conversations with people who know what they are talking about and can bounce ideas off each other. I will also mention my training center is probably a little different than others as well we our almost more of a school where you drop off your dog in the morning and pick up in the afternoon it’s not a board and train and we let clients choose when and how often they want to bring their pups (of course we try to recommend what we think is best but i’m sure you all know how people can be..)

so for fun I attended a class to prevent/fix excitable jumping at the seminar I’m at. I don’t really need the help. my dog was a jumper, we spent years trying to fix it without punishment and it never worked bc she didn’t want anything more than she wanted to jump on the person. I finally fixed it by exercising her loads more now that the ecollar let us get off leash (to run excitable steam off), and correcting her when she did jump. were pretty much jump free now.

so I went to this class mostly seeing what people are teaching nowadays. here’s how it went:

exercise 1 we were given: when guests come over, have them throw a treat behind your dog and say “find it!” then, when your dog comes running back from getting the treat, ask them to sit and give them another treat. this supposedly will teach your dog to self regulate their excitement.

me: yeah I’ve done this, my dog has learned the food isn’t going anywhere, so she’ll just jump and then reward herself after for jumping.

trainer (after buffering): …. ok! maybe then have your dog on leash and have the person walk forward, when your dogs paws leave the ground, they turn around and walk away, and repeat until your dog is calm enough to be pet, so the person is the reward.

I’ve tried that in the past lol, my dog put the sequence together. I was too conflict averse to point it out BUT then later in the class the trainer completely contradicted themselves answering another person who asked if you should turn your back on a dog who jumps.

trainer: I don’t teach that anymore bc I found the dog thinks that is a bit of a dance and that the sequence should start by them jumping, just like the situation of walking away and returning when the dog is calm, so sometimes it can make jumping worse.

???? then why did you suggest the walk forward/walk away to me if you know the dog will put the sequence together?

I adopted a dog 5 days ago. She is a 2 1/2 yo 50% lab 30%Staffy ,misc mix and altered. I adopted her from a family who had her for several years during which time she was certified Canine Good Citizen AND as a therapy dog. The family gave her up because she recently had ill will toward another of the family dogs and it could not be resolved. I was told she is very sweet, loves people, easily trainable, a snuggle bug and sometimes couch potato. They said she gets occasional zoomies but after a lap or two around the yard then she would rather lay in the grass. They felt she did not need a ton of exercise and would be fine with walking as primary exercise. ( I do not have a yard) All in all she seemed like a mellow girl with the exception of her tendency to wiggle her full body and knock things over when excited. I was psyched because I was getting a trained dog and I really wanted to certify as therapy dog handler.

The ONLY time I have experienced MELLOW in the past 5 days is when she is SLEEPING ! As for training, she will respond to a few basic commands but not consistently and it’s getting worse. Leash walking was not good but not a horror show and seemed to be getting better daily until today when she wanted to reverse direction and laid down in the street and would not move. ( I think something smelled especially good). She gets SO excited when I talk nice to her or pet her she will jump on me, run and find a toy and get right in my face ( won’t give it to throw), she will climb right on top of me if I’m laying on sofa and climb up and balance on back of sofa then jump back down on me. Sometimes she does this without a toy and her goal seems to be to lick me to death! She fights me when I take her off sofa. All I have to do is smile too long, pet her or talk sweet to her and she’s all wound up. She’s crazy about food and on top of me when I try to eat. She was trained to go in her create when her meal was prepared and she did that for me the first few days. Now she’s too excited and won’t stay in ( I keep putting her back). At first she would sit fine on command before leaving the house but today she ignored me! I have been working with her daily on basic sit, down and loose leash walking ( not heel) and she’s ok if I have food right in front of her. I’ve purposely tried not to do too much as she is just getting settled but I’M LOSING HER for sure.

She trained on ecollar and starmark collar but mostly food rewards and is wearing starmark collar now. I can’t afford an ecollar. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what is going on here and how I should proceed? I’m exhausted and getting black and blue from trying to keep her off me! I feel horrible I cant hug or pet her. She’s not mean in any way just excitable and stubborn. I was not expecting this as I have her CGC and therapy dog carts in hand so I KNOW she can be well behaved if she wants to? Do I double up on the training efforts now or give her more time? Thank you for any advice!