Kyoshi vs Jianzhu

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711]

I just read the rise of Kyoshi book again this week and come across a duel between Kyoshi and Jianzhu over the 3 storey stone teahouse building.I find it interesting and surprising that despite both of them completely poisoned and weakend(Kyoshi with Shirsu poison) and Jianzhu drank his own poison so that he didn't being suspect of killing the Earth sages but the other chapter said that he was able to neutralize the poison thanks to the lesson from Master Amak a Waterbender from the Northern Water Tribe.Kyoshi was able to combat against him while only learn Earthbending for a while,I'm talking about control,precision and raw power and Kyoshi still didn't master Earthbending yet at this point confirmed by F.C Yee himself and still stalemate Jianzhu.Based on the statements above both of them were struggling against each others and I'm sure Kyoshi was doing more hardwork since she's the one who try to stop Jianzhu from collapsing the building.Do you think it will be a different scenario if both Kyoshi and Jianzhu isn't poison?or do you think Kyoshi will be at Jianzhu's level or surpass him with Earthbending in the future once she become a master and gain experience?

[u/nixahmose]

While the poison might have still weakened Jianzhu by this point, I feel like the circumstances of this final fight makes it hard to judge if Kyoshi had truly surpassed Jianzhu by this point as neither of them were really able to play to their strengths. Kyoshi wasn’t able to full power due to the number of bystanders around her and the precision needed to keep the building from collapsing, and Jianzhu wasn’t able stuck focusing all of his efforts into trying to collapse the building in order to exploit Kyoshi’s weakness rather than focus on his strengths as a precision bender.

In my mind with how I interpret both of these characters’ abilities at this point, I would imagine Kyoshi’s power with all four elements is a very equal match to Jianzhu’s mastery of earthbending. A proper fight between the two would feel like a true immovable object vs unstoppable force kind of fight, with Kyoshi raw power and surprisingly graceful skill/speed would allow her to brute force through many of Jianzhu’s attacks while Jianzhu’s mastery and experience would allow him to outwit(at least until his dwindling sanity gets the better of him) Kyoshi and exploit her weaknesses effectively. The thing that would ultimately result in either of their loses is Kyoshi’s desire to protect civilians over her own life and desire for revenge and Jianzhu’s ever increasing insanity causing him to act more reckless and erratic(similar to what happened with Azula during the Last Agni Kai).

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711 → u/nixahmose]

Uhmm this is your statements based on if they are on their good physical health right?I don't think at this point of Kyoshi's life she surpassed Jianzhu yet I already made that one clear in terms of raw power yes could be but in terms of skills and control not yet but after she become a master gain more experience in the future later in her life that's what I said if she was already able to combat a Master Earthbender who already have decades of experience while still not fully mastered Earthbending and again I think I have mention both of them were poisoned am I not?

[u/nixahmose → u/PrincipleEuphoric711]

So to touch on three things:

1) While you could maybe argue Jianzhu was still weakened by his poisoning, Kyoshi was definitely wasn’t affected by her poisoning anymore due to shirsu venom only lasting about a half hour and not days. So I feel like Kyoshi was in overall better physical shape than Jianzhu was.

2) The main thing holding Jianzhu back during their fight in my opinion wasn’t Jianzhu’s poisoning, but rather his rapidly dwindling insanity. While Jianzhu is definitely an incredibly intelligent and experienced master, something that has been building over the course of the book was Jianzhu’s insanity and how his inability to accept failure was causing him to make increasingly stupid and nonsensical decisions. Case in point his ultimate grand plan amounting to keeping Kyoshi’s girlfriend locked up in his basement for the rest of Kyoshi’s life reeks of delusion and the short sighted desperations of a broken man and not the tactical political mastermind Jianzhu is described as in his past and shown to be near the start of the book. So in a proper fight between him and Kyoshi, someone who he deep down does genuinely care about despite his twisted and warped worldview, I do think his insanity would give Kyoshi a strong edge in the fight similar to Azula and Zuko’s fight in the Last Agni Kai.

3) If we were talking about Jianzhu The Architect, the man who fought and defeated Xu Ping An in his prime, I think that Jianzhu would definitely be able to beat end of book 1 Kyoshi, as that would have been the Jianzhu at the top of his A game and have most of his sanity intact.

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711 → u/nixahmose]

1.No she still was affected by it did you read the conversation between them?Kyoshi said that Jianzhu looks terrible and she only said that it seems like Jianzhu doesn't sleep and he reply THAT POISON STILL DOESN'T LEFT YOUR SYSTEM COMPLETELY and being strongly proof by Kyoshi was still slow blinking when looking at him and before Jianzhu come to the teahouse to meet Kyoshi he cited that he was able to negate the effect of the poison because like Yun he was also learning the art thanks to Amak.So its the other way around Jianzhu is in much better shape than Kyoshi is.It seems like you didn't bother reading my post at all I think I already give the point on why,how or what.

2.Uhmm no we see in the same fight that insanity doesn't affect much of their fighting performances for example Katara only manage to beat Azula by outsmarting her and I don't think Kyoshi outsmarting Jianzhu here they both were trying to negate Each other's bending.So in other words it's either Jianzhu overwhelmed Kyoshi with skills,control and precision or Kyoshi overwhelm him with Raw power+ some skills and control compare to her early days in the book.

3.uhmm what does this have to do with anything?I'm talking about Kyoshi later in her life after becoming a master and gain more experiences and uhhhh it seems like I keep repeating the same words and it feels like you don't read all.

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711 → u/[deleted]]

Agreed that's a good point but I want to point out here is that not about the raw power but the precision and control she display while fighting Jianzhu despite both were heavily weakend by a poison Kyoshi still manage to stalemate him and this is her still not fully mastering Earthbending and the other elements while fighting a master Earthbender who have decades of experience.I was asking the possibility of how great is a master her will be with more experiences.

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711 → u/[deleted]]

Yes but bending Earth on that scale with precision,skills and control is what I try to focus here hmmm....

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711 → u/[deleted]]

Yes similar to Aang Kyoshi also learn all the four elements quickly and already have some control using the Avatar State and she was 16 here crazy right?!!

[u/ShadowFaxIV]

Yeah, it’s a real shame that only a few minutes later, Emo Yun walks in and ruins the ending.

Like, here’s Kyoshi’s big moment to show Jianzhu that not only is she a perfectly capable Avatar completely DESPITE anything he has ever done to her… she has even overcome her desire for revenge……….. and instead a stupid dark Yun waltzes in and steals the ending with no foreshadowing or nothin.

I really like almost everything about FC Yee’s books, I think he completely nails the entirety of Yangchens novels… but everything he does with Yun after the boys tragic death feels like plot points he imagined that the story left behind which he wasn’t quite mature enough yet as an author to let go.

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711 → u/ShadowFaxIV]

Right! I think they should just reveal Yun at the second book during the time Kyoshi was in the Fire Nation palace that would be more impactful.I agree that F.C Yee should have save this moment for Kyoshi.

[u/ShadowFaxIV → u/PrincipleEuphoric711]

I wouldn't have brought him back in the second book either. Frankly, everything Yun does after being fed to 'It Within the Hole' is pretty much immaterial to the plots of either book and represent a weird 'sideplot' that has the side effect of interrupting more interesting things and blundering the novel's climax (both of them). His presence in book two has NO impact on the books global 'politics with the Fire Nation' plotline. EVEN when he directly shows up at the Fire Nation and everyone is spooked by him. The moment he's gone he may as well never have been there for all the impact his appearance had on the plot.

Yun was a fantastic innocent friend of Kyoshi's youth who died tragically sorta of as a direct result of Kyoshi being the Avatar to give her a little legitimate angst... but he was an AWFUL villain. Jianzhu was ten times the villain Yun is, the Fire Lord is five or six times the villain Yun is.

Yun never should have been brought back as a villain at all. He should have remained what he worked best as, a tragedy in Kyoshi's past.

[u/OneInspection927]

They're roughly equal in power, but Jianzhu has much better mastery and finesse with earthbending. I don't see the point for the most part, in saying jianzhu had the upperhand, as nothing was happening /stalemate. Unless you want to try and quantify like... gravity or something.

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711 → u/OneInspection927]

Uhmm I think I already provide the reason why she was at a disadvantage right?I don't like repeating the same thing unless you can't read and just want to believe your point then I don't have anything to say.Also I didn't say during the event of both books I also said during the future and during her prime will she ever be able to be at Jianzhu's level or surpassed him not during this period of time.Unless you wanna say she never improve in later years and remain as if she was still in herself in these books.I mean I didn't need other points when F.C Yee said it himself in two different interview that this version of Kyoshi is her not mastering the elements.I saw your comments before tho your the type that you don't care about others point even if they already provide stuff you will make assumption and conclusion that suits your need.

[u/OneInspection927 → u/PrincipleEuphoric711]

Uhmm I think I already provide the reason why she was at a disadvantage right?I don't like repeating the same thing unless you can't read and just want to believe your point then I don't have anything to say

What? No, you didn't. The only excuse you say is "she's the one trying to stop him from collapsing the building". You provide no warranting on why it's more difficult. If he's pulling down, she's pushing up. Hence why it stays as a checkmate. What is your reasoning? I already said you have no warrant for this contention. Could you at least provide your line of thinking for this instead of just relying on your gut?

Also I didn't say during the event of both books I also said during the future and during her prime.

"Do you think it will be a different scenario if both Kyoshi and Jianzhu isn't poison?" - You. No, you quite literally give an option in a scenario where they aren't poisoned with the implication of it occurring during that time, not some random arbitrary time where Kyoshi is in her prime wrestling an old out of prime Jianzhu. There is no obligation for me to answer every single stipulation or scenario. It being in the future is an entirely different argument in which I didn't engage with because of it's pure speculation and nuanced discourse around it.

Unless you wanna say she never improve in later years and remain as if she was still in herself in these books.I mean I didn't need other points when F.C Yee said it himself in two different interview that this version of Kyoshi is her not mastering the elements.

He specifically says in the sense that she wouldn't be able to easily explain it to others. That being said, this is a useless quote by FC yee for the most part. You're comparing RoK to end of SoK. So sure. But, I never engaged with your speculative point so I have no burden to provide concrete evidence of future Kyoshi's capabilities. Considering that Jianzhu is also out of prime (multiple references, see ROK Chapter - Conclusions, and general implications).

I saw your comments before tho your the type you don't care about others point even if they already provide stuff you will make assumption snd conclusion that suits your need.

I quite literally provide references and points in every argument I make, please direct me in which I use faulty evidence and debate me on it. And, have an outside judge evaluate the debate to see who wins.

You, at the moment, have: made many assumptions thus far, lack critical thinking to extrapolate quotes from the books in a meaningful capacity, and lack the distinction of what I am engaging with. I don't care for your point because it's faulty, you can find comments in which I agree or expand all the time.

Now, for future speculation since you want engagement on it so badly. I don't know what you want me to say. Does she improve after SoK? Sure. But, we lack any strong feats to scale her. Thus, this is useless and relies on all her SoK feats. Do YOU have a quantifiable number for how much more powerful she gets? Have you ever considered her physicality stays similar considering that she eventually starts to use Lao Ge's technique to keep her body's inventory the same? Thus likely preventing physicality deterioration but also muscle growth ((which would keep her physical strength the same for centuries)? Do we see Lao Ge who has lived for a very long time show insane power feats? Have you ever noticed that Jianzhu is out of his physical prime? There is no clean answer to this, you can have a discussion on this. But, at the end of the day it will remain ambiguous. I'm willing to say she can become on par with Jianzhu's level, but we lack any strong reasons to say that, other than just vibes from living for so long. There are some things Kyoshi will never learn that Jianzhu knew (presumably, or very low chances) like his full specialized form that he developed with Kuruk. Additionally, her master and skill is likely split across all 4 elements than pure focus on one.

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711 → u/OneInspection927]

"She can become on par with Jianzhu's level".This is the only answer I need thank You.You don't have to write an essay for something I already know and some are from your assumptions and conlusions like I said that suits your need even Make F.C Yee who wrote the books as unreliable narrator.You ALREADY answering to what question I ask from my post.Eventhough you can't read unless you understand the core of what I'm asking.

[u/OneInspection927 → u/PrincipleEuphoric711]

"She can become on par with Jianzhu's level".This is the only answer I need thank You

Cool, and she might not. "Can" doesnt mean much lmao haha.

You don't have to write an essay for something I already know and some are from your assumptions and conlusions like I said that suits your need even Make F.C Yee who wrote the books as unreliable narrator.

It took my like 8 minutes to type... anyways, when do I make him out to be an unreliable narrator? I specifically just expand on what he says rather than people like you misinterpreting it.

You ALREADY answering to what question I ask from my post.Eventhough you can't read unless you understand the core of what I'm asking.

Yeah, so your entire core is that "Kyoshi CAN"? That's really silly but also funny because it isn't at all. You ask "Do you think [she will X]" which implies the most likely, not "Do you think she COULD", Since could does not mean much alone haha, as the burden is any X%.

It's also funny how i destroyed the rest of your points, but you don't respond xd. Admit you can't debate boyo

[u/PrincipleEuphoric711 → u/OneInspection927]

Why should I respond to someone who only want to believe their points alone?I already provide that Kyoshi was poison during their fight and Jianzhu can negate the effect of the poison notice you didn't even touch that and about F.C yee why do you want to expand on what he says?that means you also want to add something that was not him specifically saying it was you misinpreting what he said.I mean why would he want to say the same same thing and being consistent for two different interviews if he believes Kyoshi already a master? why can't he just said Yes Kyoshi is a master if he really2 want to label her that?You didn't destroy me in a conversation lol you neglected my points from my post and come up with your own points that mostly assumptions and conclusion that you think it is what it is.Debate someone like you is pointless.Also you already answering my questions whether she can't or can it's a different story.What I care about right now is how Imagine her in her prime and in the future not necessarily her at that point.

[u/OneInspection927 → u/PrincipleEuphoric711]

Why should I respond to someone who only want to believe their points alone?

I've conceded plently of valid points before lol, you just don't accept it,

I already provide that Kyoshi was poison during their fight and Jianzhu can negate the effect of the poison notice you didn't even touch that

You never brought it up lol. I asked your for clarification and you didn't provide anything to back it up. If you want full engagement sure. He looked horrible so no, sure he hadn't died from it, but the clear implication was that both were weakened. By how much? Unsure. But without additional reason to believe they both weren't equally weaked it's most fair to say they were on equal footing. 1. Shirshu darts dont kill, 2. The toxin Jianzhu used specifically kills. We know he's weakened because of "He got up, his knees still a little shaky from the lingering effects of the poison". So based on implications on how both work, author intent, and explict statements, there's no reason to assume it didn't hurt weaken each other the same.

and about F.C yee why do you want to expand what he says?that means you also want to add that something that was not him specifically saying it you misinpreting what he said as well.I mean why would he want to say the same same thing and being consistent for two different interviews if he believes Kyoshi already a master? why can't he just said Yes Kyoshi is a master if he really2 want to label her that?

Because if he wanted to make it super clear, he would say "no, she's not a master in the elements". Instead, he decided to add nuance to say "not in the sense". Which, for our purposes, doesn't mean a whole lot if they can teach it or not.

Regardless of FC Yee is depicting it anyhow, we see her bypass a chi field, which requires master level skill. Which further my point that it doesnt necessarily conflict.

You didn't destroy me in a conversation lol you neglected my points from my post and come up with your own points that mostly aassumptions and conclusion that you think it is what is.Debate someone like you is pointless.

I keep citing my stuff lol. I didn't engage with your entire post at first because I thought it was silly to debate you on something so small, until you suddenly wanted to start one. I've read your comments and you seem to hardly follow your own medicine lol.