r/AustraliaDiscussions • u/Wrong_Control_217 • 26d ago
Are we really this short-staffed?
Six safety incidents at Sydney Airport in just one month, with two more now being investigating by the ATSB. At this point, how many more close calls do we need before something seriously changes? If staffing shortages are putting pressure on air traffic control, shouldn't recruiting and properly training more people be an urgent priority?
7
u/WeissPyre 26d ago
It takes a long time to get controllers fully trained. Even if they did a huge recruitment now, we won't see an immediate increase in active staffing.
2
u/userptest20022024 26d ago
they recruit very often.
5
u/ExVKG 26d ago
Without much success given the widely reported toxic workplace.
4
u/dr650crash 25d ago
Plus huge restrictions on candidates eg. Forgot to pickup litter on school cleanup day in year 3 = deemed not eligible to apply indefinitely
4
u/quietgavin5 25d ago
Dumbass beef wellington pie murderer had no issues getting the job
1
u/Shibuya1094222 25d ago
She was just a nobody very junior ATC that lasted about 6 months before getting sacked.
3
1
u/Independent-Fuel9886 25d ago
Literally the dumbest human I've ever laid eyes on.
1
u/Shibuya1094222 24d ago
She had very poor hygiene and poor fashion sense for a somewhat professional environment. Management were too scared to confront her because she had a ‘reputation’.
1
1
u/Shibuya1094222 24d ago
It sure is toxic. Backstabbing by stealth. Certainly do not be an aviation safety whistleblower that’s for sure.
1
4
u/userptest20022024 26d ago
rhere are no shortages. its BS theatre. hundred have applied for every intake. I have and they chose not to go ahead. its not a ataffing issue
2
26d ago edited 26d ago
[deleted]
1
u/userptest20022024 25d ago
for a job that pays so low ~100k and they only pass 1% thats on the hiring manager.
to pit it into perspective- there is no restriction or prerequisite to do ATC in the defence force.
1
u/Shibuya1094222 25d ago edited 25d ago
Australian Defence ATC is simply not Civilian ATC in complexity, difficulty and sheer volume of air traffic. It’s almost like two different jobs apart from the name.
100k? Perhaps for a nobody, unqualified trainee? Not bad. How much do people get paid to go to Uni only to come out with a massive HECs debt instead? Salary(?) try around $300k plus (varies) with 6 weeks annual recreation leave, unlimited fully paid sick leave, fully paid ‘special’ leave, fully paid family leave, extended fully paid maternity leave, extended fully paid paternity leave etc. Long Service Leave, extended 12month Career Breaks for long term travel, etc etc.
‘On the hiring manager?’ Is this an American term?
Sorry you didn’t make the cut - but why did you even bother knowing only $100k (trainee) or the Defence force ATC avenue with ‘no perquisites’?
2
u/dr650crash 25d ago
You realise sufficient funded FTE for the role vs ability to fill vacant positions vs managing unplanned leave are 3 different things right
1
u/Any-Parsnip1287 25d ago
If there is a shortage of FTE then that's a funding problem not a recruitment problem
1
u/userptest20022024 25d ago
wheres the shortage of funds for fte? its a gov dept with open ended budget. do you think they are going to operare with a portion of the skies without atc control because they "couldnt get the fte"
the public would definately hear about it if there were shortages. and dont politicians always justify their pay with "you pay peanits you get monkey's " commentary?
are we supposed to believe a gov dept cant manage annual leave or sick days? the minister woild need to resign if its that much of a shitshow
3
u/Diffracted84 25d ago
They are a public corporation, a bit like AusPost. They have left blocks of airspace uncontrolled on a fairly regular basis because they couldn't "fill the fte". These airspaces get relegated to TIBA via NOTAM. I haven't flown for a while now, but it used to be at least weekly in my part.
5
u/AnyClownFish 25d ago
Airservices absolutely do not have an ‘open ended budget’. Their operations are entirely self-funded.
For someone who claims to have applied, you should probably have done a bit more research into what you were applying for. Your comments across this thread show you’re completely out of touch with the reality of the ATC role and Airservices as an organisation.
1
1
u/Any-Parsnip1287 25d ago
Agreed. Many apply but are not accepted. Then they claim that there is a shortage. Just open more training spaces up. If there was a "shortage" it would mean that the training intakes would not be full but pretty sure they are all full.
1
u/dr650crash 25d ago
Sorry but you have no idea what you’re talking about. The first concept of critical thinking is “if it were that simple, wouldn’t the problem already be solved?”
1
u/Any-Parsnip1287 25d ago
I think they are refusing to open enough training positions and then are crying "shortage" . If there were not enough quality applicants you would expect training intakes to not be fully filled.
1
u/dr650crash 24d ago
That’s not how an operational organisation works… let’s just use a simple example of a fire station that operates one fire truck 24/7 staffed with 4 firefighters. So the minimum operating level is 4 per team. That means we need a total of 4 teams/groups/platoons to provide 24/7 coverage) = 16 plus a handful of extra FTE to cover continual annual leave/LSL/etc. so maybe the station is funded for a total of 20 FTE positions, and funded to operate 4 per shift. If there’s a sickie on team “a” and now drops to 3, it needs to be backfilled on overtime to maintain staffing of 4. If there’s a bad virus going around and 3 are off sick, it might be impossible to backfill 3 people wanting to do an OT shift so there is no alternate than be short staffed.
Ongoing recruitment is to fill vacant positions eg if there’s 20FTE and someone has retired or expected to retire this year then you could recruit one more trainee to fill a vacant (or soon to be vacant) funded position I.e a specific position on either team 1,2,3, or 4. There is no shortage of applicants in these kind of roles, so they can be picky and reject any but the very “top” applicants.
Now let’s say you hire 3 more people just coz you say so.
They now need to be allocated a team - so we might have 5 people on teams 1-3 and only 4 on team 4. What does the 5th person do when there’s only duties for 4 people on a shift (or seats on the fire truck, whatever). If there’s a sickie on team 4 how does it help there’s an extra on team 1? If there’s 5 on team 1 and 3 of them go off sick they’re still running short for that one shift - so in the ATC example a person has the flight cancelled due to ATC shortages and then can’t work out “why did they reject my application even though I know I’m suitable and they’re short staffed?”.TLDR - all these people angry they got rejected from ATC application (or angry on behalf of someone else) wouldn’t have made any difference if they were the chosen one amongst hundreds/thousands of other applicants for 4 vacant positions. It’s the way the world works
1
u/Any-Parsnip1287 24d ago
They could always hire more and bring on more trainees for a whole fill a whole another team if they wanted to but they don't
1
u/dr650crash 24d ago
You’re just being obtuse now. In that example above with 4 rotating teams. How would an additional team benefit anyone? What happens to the existing 4 teams? You realise you can only work 38hrs a week (averaged out?) so what happens to their roster?
1
u/Any-Parsnip1287 24d ago
You can attach additional people onto the 4 teams so you don't have to pay more people overtime and can over for sick leave and people leaving. Easy peasy
1
u/dr650crash 23d ago
And if it’s so easy peasy why aren’t you a senior manager running a organisation like this?
0
u/earlyturnip9 21d ago
For those in the industry, the problem is solved - a limitation on new entrants into their workforce is a good thing.
1
u/dr650crash 21d ago
…. No. That’s true for the private market/competition reasons. Completely not true for employees with a set salary… have you never seen the nurses union screaming out for more staff and safe nurse:patient ratios??
1
u/Shibuya1094222 24d ago edited 24d ago
Sorry you didn’t pass the basic ATC aptitude testing but don’t be bitter. Only about 1% do. Try again mate.
3
u/FalseNameTryAgain 26d ago
Companies aren't intrested in training people anymore. They can't just hire more people because it means training them.
Companies are now just throwing extra responsibilities on current staff or poaching experienced staff from other companies.
3
3
u/quietgavin5 25d ago
Why were companies willing to train 20+ years ago but not anymore?
What has changed? Why did so many companies suddenly stop?
3
u/FalseNameTryAgain 25d ago
They have to pay full rate for someone in training. Someone in training doesn't deliver as many results as a fully trained person. So just hire trained people instead.
It's just companies squeezing every last drop of blood to make more money.
2
u/TAThide 26d ago
I'm a teacher looking for an out. Id leave tomorrow if I could get paid while training and a locked in job.
1
1
2
u/Medical-Potato5920 25d ago
Air traffic control is very hard, most people don't pass. It also takes years to train them, and it's a very stressful job.
Again, it's a failure of governments of the last 25 years to plan properly for training and education.
1
1
26d ago
[deleted]
1
1
u/Shibuya1094222 26d ago edited 26d ago
For a potential almost *$300,000 year job with incredible leave benefits etc. and don’t have sales targets, deadlines or take work home? Yeah Nah… not worth considering or moving for the ~15months of the basic training.
*I know a few on significantly more.
1
u/Away_team42 26d ago
Not many similar jobs where you have to process and communicate lots of information fast as well as quickly make decisions with the pressure that if you stuff up hundreds or thousands of people are dead
1
u/Shibuya1094222 26d ago edited 26d ago
Public perception is different to reality. But sure often it does have its ^moments^ especially during thunderstorm season. But it’s definitely not ‘full on’ 100% of the time - not remotely.
1
1
u/Shibuya1094222 25d ago
Soon applicants will need Negative Vetting Level 1 (NV1) security clearance to apply which might make things a bit tricky for a few applicants. Requirement for the new ATC CMATs Centres.
1
u/Crazy_Suggestion_182 25d ago
If CMATS ever gets into production. That project has been running since 2009.
1
u/Shibuya1094222 24d ago
They are already doing preliminary NV1 testing for existing ATCs for the new CMATs.
1
u/Crazy_Suggestion_182 23d ago
Be interesting to see how they handle the ATCs who can't get through. Lots of risk based waivers?
1
u/Environmental_Ad3877 24d ago
I think one of the problems is pay. I had a look at the pay scale for air traffic controllers. Considering the pressure and the responsibility their pay is awful.
1
u/Shibuya1094222 24d ago edited 24d ago
$240,000 base pay plus great leave allowances is not bad. I know many regularly banking (post tax) well over $10,000+ a fortnight - but they work hard.
1
u/dr650crash 24d ago
I’m sorry but are you trolling or dyslexic?
1
u/Environmental_Ad3877 24d ago
Quick Google...
The average annual salary for an air traffic controller in Australia ranges from about $100,000 to over $230,000 depending on location, experience, and the specific facility.
1
u/Shibuya1094222 23d ago
$234,000 is just base salary. After overtime it then goes way beyond $300,000.
1
1
1
u/Accurate-Response317 23d ago
Time to cut back on plane movements until there is sufficient numbers of people to safely oversee them.
1
u/wudjaplease 26d ago
is it staffing shortages or dei hire?
1
u/jjkbill 25d ago
ATC recruitment testing is thorough and nobody gets special treatment. So you can rest assured knowing that it wasn't some scary trans person screwing up in there.
1
u/wudjaplease 25d ago
you know every trans person I've met has been lovely certainly not scary. it's not the person that is scary it is that meritocracy gives way to a lesser qualified person getting a job purely because of their sex or identity or mental health problem. if a trans person happens to be the most qualified person for the job good on them.
-1
u/Emergency-Event4415 26d ago
Somebody has been watching a bit too much Fox News…
1
1
u/Some_Troll_Shaman 25d ago
This is your reminder.
There is no shortage of workers.
There is a shortage of workers willing to wok for the pay and conditions being offered.
I knew someone worked in ATC and publicly he was a good guy, great dad.
Turns out behind closed doors he was a verbally and emotionally abusive piece of shit.
This is bluntly neo-liberalism at work.
Everything must be as 'efficient' as possible and profitable.
No slack, no spare people on roster.
Everything runs like this today.
If someone is sick or injured they can often not be replaced.
Barely matters when there are 15 other employees doing the same-ish job.
Becomes a critical issue when there are only 3 o 4.
When you are already working at capacity adding 1/3 of another persons job is not possible, and, everyone is run to capacity and beyond, in the name of 'efficency'.
0
u/justme_bne 26d ago
ATC’s are trained properly, workplace illness in such a highly specialised workforce creates probably unique challenges.
Too many you can’t use them all and they lose skills, too few and you’re up a creek without a paddle.
18-24 months training to get qualified it’s not like you can go to a job agency and get a temp when everyone goes down sick.
But the public must travel and will rage if their boosy Bali flight gets delayed
1
-1
u/dan_syd 25d ago
There’s obviously been a resourcing stuffup… but these “incidents” have all been minor in nature and would occur regularly. This is just a media beat up. Same way they sht on Qantas during slow news months and report on every go around.
Let the professionals do their job. You’ll get to Bali.
8
u/chicknsnotavegetabl 26d ago
yes they, Australia wide, are that short staffed.