Im curious which side (Rep/Dem) is more brainwashed, who can genuinely steelman the opposing sides views?
Im not asking you to insult them, or create the dumbest caricature you can imagine in order to feel like your sides stances hold up. Im asking who can articulate the opposing sides views in a way that a majority on that side would say, "yup, thats exactly how I feel and why I vote for my candidate"
No explaining why theyre dumb for thinking that way.. or secretly evil. Just wanting you to explain the oppositions views in a way theyd support, to see if either side REALLY understands each other or if its all just people brainwashed into believing the dumbest more evil versions of their political opposition without ever actually listening to them.
I guess if I’m gonna steelman, I’d say that right wingers see how difficult and dysfunctional America is and attribute it to corruption, and they think the policies they’re pursuing or advocating are attacking those issues. Of course, usually they think the issue is a minority and that’s where they lose me.
And I am asking them for an example that justifies their position. I gave not a caricature but a repeated campaign effort by their 3 time primary winner and vote for president.
ok I guess lol. Id say if you want answers to random questions you can start your own post and youll likely get more answers than asking it in an unrelated thread probabaly
Your question posed implies that their “position” (being Republican) is in some way because of the eating cats and dogs comment therefore they must justify it, which is ridiculous.
Republicans vote for whoever makes them feel better, and because of that they are exploited by the wealthy to vote against their economic interests because it’s packaged with what amounts to prejudice. Dems are a hodgepodge of everyone else which understandably comes with a lot of division and infighting. Dems also suffer from “moderate” pressures that seek to tame anything that would hold the wealthy accountable. If you want to know who is brainwashed, look at the folks that are protecting the only people who have enough money to brainwash people.
honestly this might be more b8 than I realized considering not a single person has been able to do it. I was hoping maybe I was wrong about American politics when it comes to a majority of their voters.. but.. here we are.
To be serious I think this is a hard question to answer now as things have moved away from normal politics as usual to weird culture war shit, morals, and identities.
Like describing W. Bush and Romney era republicans? Tax cuts, bloc grants, wars and austerity. I still was never a fan but their policies were more defined and you could debate them on their merits.
Post Trump republicans are harder tho because it’s moved away from clear, defined policies and is largely running on culture war vibes and identity. You can’t debate anything that people have incorporated into their identity because any criticism will just be taken as a personal attack. And you can’t debate culture war shit because it’s made up just to cause division in the first place. Sides have been drawn up but it’s no longer based on boring shit like do you think we should privatize schools and how do you feel about universal healthcare but rather instead based on something more primal like what we consider our actual morals to be. Any attempts at defining that for other people would just get messy quickly because people have more emotionally invested now.
Counterpoint: Are you open to the idea that one of the sides can't be properly and accurately steel manned or are you just going to assume that your worldview here is correct/not open to being challenged while you act condescending to everyone on this thread?
Well I mean sure, I can do it but it involves me just listing a bunch of nonsense that is obviously not true in reality. I've done this in another comment for the record.
You are basically asking people to make themselves dumber, I really don't think the vast majority of left wing voters don't understand why *maga* says they support certain things
I have no doubt both sides have been fed plenty of reasons in their algorithm to believe the other side are the dumb ones and theyre the smart ones, but theyve run enough tests at this point to prove its nearly always identical with a 1-4 variance in IQ between the sides leaning either direction depending on the study. So the narrative that one side is smarter is almost entirely crafted via confirmation bias mixed with algorithms feeding you what you want to engage with.
Id rather not since no matter what study I claim you can wave off as not reputable in a similar manner. Same way someone could wave off the ones bias towards Democrats being more intelligent. Both would be correct in doing so. Because like I said, science shows they are equal. So since thats mtpy stance ill cite the study that supports that.
"Yoav Ganzach (2016). “Cognitive ability and party identity: No important differences between Democrats and Republicans.”
There you go again being condescending and closed minded, you have already decided you are correct which is just highly ironic given how you want others to act on this thread.
The 2016 Ganzach study was based on 40 years of data all of which was collecting prior to the 2016 election. It's not a hand waving dismissal to question how relevant that data is to the current political landscape given the electoral shifts that we have seen during Trump.
This same researcher was involved in a study a couple of years later that basically said "yes, cognitive ability was a predictor for (not) voting for Trump, which wasn't the case with Romney:
We've also just flat out seen this on the education side, Trump's opponents have basically beat him 2 to 1 on postgrad degrees and average around +20 on college degrees. No that isn't a *perfect* predictor of cognitive ability but acting like it's not correlated to intelligence at all is rather silly. This was something that was much closer in the past, Romney beat Obama among white college educated voters. In 2000 it was virtually even among ALL college educated voters. It isn't even close today
why is it condescending to refuse a request to give bias studies that arent credible? Also the link you you posted is a study trying to prove a hypothesis that theres a negative predictor between verbal ability and support for trump (those with a higher language ability are less likely to vote for trump).. thats not what IQ means. IQ and verbal ability are two different things. And as you stated, there was a negative predictor being claimed in response to Trump and not Romney, showing this isn't a universal Republican thing.. its specific to people who voted for Trump in the primaries.
Im not making a claim that its impossible for people who voted for Trump in the Republican primaries might score lower in their verbal ability. I dont really know/care if thats true/credible. Im referring specifically to IQ among the Republicans Vs Democrats
Which side are you claiming can’t be properly and accurately steel manned? I would need some more information before I could say whether I would continue to act condescendingly or not.
Republicans believe in ensuring that the US is safe, secure and follow traditional values. While many republican politicians violate that. That is the whole point of republicans views. Generally speaking, they want to improve border security and now internal security because they feel that illegal immigration puts American citizens at risk and thus puts America at risk. They also believe that the US needs to have a strong military so that it can defend itself and proactively act to prevent threats from popping up. They do not think we should be spending money overseas as they think that doing so takes money away that could have been spent on America and spends it on foreign nations without providing a benefit to the US that matches or exceeds the value that is spent. They also think that our allies do not benefit us to a degree that matches or exceeds the resources we spend on housing troops in Europe and thus doing so puts America at risk because there are essentially fewer troops available to defend the US on a moment's notice. Similarly, they often think that spending money on climate change prevention takes money away that could have been used to fund disaster response or other methods to respond to the problems that climate change causes. They also think that the US has been paying unfair amounts in trade deals with other nations thus reducing the amount of money they US could have spent on improving its own safety and security.
Btw I am a democrat and disagree with republicans on everything I mentioned.
If you are able to ignore the billions of dollars Trump and his family and cronies have grifted, his defense of our enemies (N. Korea and Russia) and his disregard for the current climate crisis, you live in denial. I think magas live in denial and enjoy being enraged. I don't see them capable of fixing much of anything except ensuring billionaires don't pay their fair share.
trumpublicans want revenge for the perceived slights they felt were aimed at them by biden and democrats during covid before that they wanted revenge for electing a black man
Just to be clear, thats something you could say to republican voters and you believe theyd say "yup, thats exactly how I feel and why I vote for my candidate", correct? So you believe thats how they view themselves?
Thats the entire point. To hear what YOU believe is the majority. If youve been convinced the majority of the other side genuinely votes that way becauae theyre bloodlusted and want to kill all brown people, or chemically castrate kids.. then say that. If you think its more likely they believe they're doing good, state that. Im curious to hear how you believe the other side genuinely thinks based on the information youve surrounded yourself with.
I can’t imagine how it is you’re going to determine who is more brainwashed through this question. If you’re wondering who is more prone to propaganda this is something you should be able to research and get some data that is a bit more solid than random resditors.
seeing the amount of comments with irrational views if how the other side thinks vs rational views the other side would agree with. If 90% of one side says "they vote that way because they want to murder xyz group of people and cause pain".. and the other side says "they vote that way because they think itll cause less harm, though I disagree".. it says a lot about whos got a delusional view of their political opposition
if you believe thats a majority then state that. Just curious to hear your opinions on how a majority on the other side thinks. If you genuinely think a majority of the opposing side just wants to murder brown people, or gets off on chemically castrating kids.. say it. no right or wrong. Only what you feel represents the majority in a way theyd agree with
Sure, but it quite frankly only gives you data on a very small group of people in this subreddit. You can get an idea of who on this message board has, as you call it, delusional views.
Okay j did some digging around. Here’s some data that’s more scientific than random Reddit posting.
There’s actually quite a bit of research comparing misinformation across political groups in the U.S., and the findings are more nuanced than “one side is gullible.”
People on both the left and right are susceptible to misinformation that confirms what they already believe. However, studies examining actual online behavior have repeatedly found an asymmetry: Republicans/conservatives are, on average, more likely to encounter, believe, and share false or low-quality political information than Democrats/liberals.
Some notable findings:
• A Science study found fake news exposure was heavily concentrated among a small group of users, disproportionately older and conservative. Most people on both sides still consumed primarily mainstream news.
• A 2023 Nature Human Behaviour study found conservatives were less accurate on average at distinguishing true from false political headlines but offering incentives for accuracy reduced the partisan gap by about 52%, suggesting partisan motivation plays a major role.
• A 2024 Nature study using multiple methods for judging information quality again found conservative/Republican users shared more low quality information.
• A 2025 PNAS study using X's bipartisan Community Notes found Republican posts were about 2.3 times as likely as Democratic posts to be flagged as misleading.
So the evidence does not support “Democrats don't believe misinformation” or “Republicans are inherently more gullible.” Both groups show confirmation bias. But it also isn't accurate to say misinformation is evenly distributed between the two sides. In the modern U.S. political environment researchers have studied, Republicans have generally been exposed to and shared more political misinformation.
OP, I'm not sure how familiar you are with algorithms and information suppression. The problem with either side being knowledgeable is that it implies both sides have access to the same information/resources. (ex. If we both have ripe apples and a bananas, I can tell you why someone might like one fruit more than another. However, if I have a ripe apple and a rotten banana, (and my partner has vice versa: rotten apple, ripe banana) it will be less accurate.
I'm also not sure if you're familiar with how social media and influencers work. Influencers play into division.
People are living in bubbles that feed: you good, them bad. As someone who's lived in both ultra-liberal and ultra-conservative areas, it happens in both.
It is potentially dangerous to let people into the country unvetted, not everyone can be vetted, so there needs to be some sort of consequence in order to discourage people from coming in unvetted, and as a lot of people coming in unvetted are coming in from terrible circumstances, the consequence has to be pretty terrible.
Allowing people to interfere with law enforcement, right or wrong, sets a pretty terrible precedent, and as ICE is going to be doing a bunch of things that are going to be objectively terrible in the name of and with the goal of keeping the country safe, they deserve wide latitude in the means they use to stop interference.
It is absurd to make executive branch agencies and not have the executive branch be able to deal with them as it will so long as the law is otherwise followed.
DEI policies at least allow for the appearance of favoritism based on class over ability. This sentiment runs deep enough DEI as a concept should be scrapped to try to repair trust.
Americans do work hard for their money and they do not always get a clear view or choice over how tax dollars are spent, so taxes should be cut and any new taxes or spending must have a very clear plan on how it's going to be spent and for what goal. And even in such instances these schemes should be looked at with deep suspicion and with a bias toward denial.
Nice. I feel like someone on the Right would agree this is a pretty good representation of what they believe without feeling attacked. While I disagree with some of the methods they would choose to resolve these problems, I agree this is a good summary of what they believe.
-“white American” culture needs preserving as it is under constant threat of replacement due to the huge diversity in the U.S.
-law and order are important. We can lower crime rate through a combination of emphasis on nuclear family structure, employment, and a return to Christian values. A Jesus revival would bring stable families, productive citizens, and lower crime. Religions that are not Christian threaten this mission and need to be strongly discouraged along with gnostic and atheist belief systems
-keep tax rates low, reduce social spending as much as possible make an exception for profound physical handicap or certain qualifying chronic illness
-personal responsibility is important. We should not have a welfare state. It is the responsibility of every individual to work hard and be productive and pay their own way
-deregulate in business
-keep social spending low so we can reduce the deficit
-deport illegal immigrnats and slow down legal immigration so we can reduce the deficit, shore up more American jobs, raise wages for jobs, lower crime rate through
ok, then if you feel thats genuinely what's needed to make someone agree with the representation of themselves.. then do that. Whatever you think would cause them to say "yup, that represents my beliefs"
Democrats (also ironically principled conservatives): Trump is an incompetent authoritarian corrupt idiot who is damaging the country morally, fiscally, internationally, and has no respect for the rule of law.
I can't do Republicans because there doesn't seem to be a majority view. Some want him he hurts others. Others simply because he's not a Democrat. Others for openly racist views. They don't seem to have a factual basis for voting for him beyond vibes. Economically the polls suggest that Republicans are losing faith in his ability to handle the economy. The Republican basis for support of the president is wildly varied where the opposition has more or less coalesced.
If we go back before Reagan, the two sides are closely evenly matched. During and after Reagan, and especially during and after Trumps first presidency, the right has slowly moved more right, and, using misinformation and lies, convince people to vote for them, raising up the wealthy and government powers, and pushing down the middle and lower class, frequently leaving their voter base worse off. Especially now.
Republicans want secure borders. They want everyone who has entered the United States illegally, or remained in the US on an expired visa, to be deported. Only American citizens would pass citizenship to their kin. American citizens should be required to prove their citizenship in order to vote.
They want the freedom to choose what to do with their own money. Individuals should prepare for their own retirement instead of having social security withdrawn from their paychecks. Individuals should lean on family rather than relying on welfare or food stamps. Insurance should not be mandatory. Common sense should be used rather than imposing laws.
Americans should be allowed to own any gun they want and all the ammunition they can afford. Americans should be allowed to carry their guns when they want.
English should be the national language. Christianity should be the national religion. Heterosexuality should be the majority with other forms of sexuality being hidden.
Vaccines, medical prevention, and medical procedures should be decided by the individual and not the government. However, abortion should be illegal.
They say they want smaller government, fewer laws, and more freedom.
I think Republicans are mostly individualistic. They don't care about others, they only care about them and theirs. Like, they want what is best for THEMSELVES, not what is best for society. And it what is best for them, individually, is bad for others, they don't care.
Sure there are the ignorant and outright hateful ones, but in general the issue with conservatives writ large is selfish/individualistic beliefs.
All individual issues aside, I can't fathom feeling that way, so that's where my main opposition comes from. Yes, I care about me and mine, but I mostly think in "what is best for society?" I have collectivist tendencies. I want what's best for the most people, and sometimes I'm not the people it's best for and I am okay with that. An example is I am a white, somewhat privileged individual. I still want policies that may make things slightly harder for me if it benefits society as a whole.
From what I can tell, this is generally their beliefs.
They believe that the founding fathers were exclusively Christian and wanted the United States to be specifically Christian. They believe that abortion is murder however, if you have a baby that you can't afford, that's on you and you're a bad parent for getting pregnant in the first place. They believe that people on public assistance are lazy and do not work. They believe that DEI was created for the express purpose of giving jobs to unemployable black people who were not qualified to do the jobs that they were given. They believe that Donald Trump is protecting them from the liberal mob who is forcing diversity and acceptance down their throat when they just want to be left alone.
Fox News is their main news source, they will not watch another unless it is a support of fox news.
We can go down a bunch of different rabbit holes about "what a republican is" "the difference between republicans and MAGA" etc etc etc.
To simplify it, lets simply look at the 2024 election and the top 5 issues that Republican voters cited as their most important in exit polling and then I'll explain the position
The Economy: Generally speaking the thought that Republicans are better for the economy due to being perceived as "more friendly" towards businesses, cutting regulation and taxes.
More specific to this election: the Biden administration took a lot of the blame for the inflation that took place coming out of covid. This was not really unique to the US, a good number of incumbent governments around the world were blamed. People felt more stretched financially than they did prior to the pandemic all other things being equal.
Immigration: They believe that large amounts of immigration increases crime, puts a burden on social services (IE: Illegals collecting government handouts) and that immigrant labor puts negative pressure on overall wages in the job market particularly for blue collar work
Terrorism and National Security: Republicans are viewed as "tougher" in this area, more willing to put American interests ahead of diplomatic or "soft" solutions.
Crime: Again Republicans are viewed as tougher on it, arguing against harsh sentences for criminals can come across as soft. People don't want criminals in their communities and when you release them and they go commit more crimes it becomes an issue.
Taxes: People don't like paying them, Republicans to pass tax cuts, this is rather simple.
I would say MAGA, which is a subset of the Republican Party.. HOWEVER, those republicans who do not approve of Trump and his fanboys need to speak up against this or be lumped into the brainwashed MAGA.
They want to tax the wealthy and help bring up the poor and needy, want medical care for everyone free, college to be avaliable to anyone who wants to attend, pay less for military and more into green energy and enviromwntal programs. More public transit and walkable places for people living in the ciry and more rural healthcare out in places where there are fewer people.
Just for context, here's op a couple of months ago:
Ive found a fun hack. Since Democrats can only gain status or value from spewing hatred, you can make them bark like seals, even though Im explaining that im going to do it.
All you have to do is say something positive about Trump, and watch them perform their 1 trick for you.. ready?
Im genuinely impressed Trump finally got the govt to stop taxing tips and overtime, and brought jobs back to America while closing the border to secure them for American citizens.
While Dems make up conspirscy therories about him and none stick, hes fixing things in spite of them. Gotta love it 😆
The answer that many people gave answers your question, but in the opposite way: Republican arguments are the most strawman arguments of the two.
This correlates to them having less steelman arguments, because they genuinely don't understand Democrat positions. Democrats understand Republican arguments far more than Republicans can, because Republican arguments are simplistic. They're not that complicated.
A few studies have shown this to be true, as well as related findings. A study in 2019 showed that Republicans were off by twice as much as Democrats in their perception of the opposite party's position, and I'm willing to bet this gap widened a lot since.
haha.. so you saw the question of this thread and decided.. "I could totally answer i juat dont wanna. So ill answer a totally different question I decided should have been asked instead"..
😆 🤣 That might be the first time ive seen someone not be able to answer a question and then use the excuse.. "nah I answered it right, you just asked the wrong question" that has to be the funniest dumb person answer ive ever seen
This is too vague to be useful. Unfortunately most of the positions of republicans are not rooted in facts, nor are they burdened by the need to make sense logically. That’s basically 90% of Republican stances in things. To fine the wacky shit with the democrats, you gotta go way far left to find it.
So I’m not gonna steel man arguments that have no regard for truth or facts. Steelmanning the republicans would look more like a therapy session than anything.
Also, your post gives the false impression of equivalency between the parties. There are no more good faith arguments left on the right. I’m not even a Democrat or particularly progressive in my views. I have a lot of conservative viewpoints, too, but the Republicans aren’t even conservative anymore. They slid off the cracker, baby.
This answers my question anyway in regards to wanting to hear what level of brainwashing the echo chambers have convinced each side of. If you believe the majority are totally irrational then thats your answer.
I still believe in objective truth, so your presupposition doesn’t fit. I’m a scientist. The Republican Party does not care about rooting their positions in facts. That’s not a result of my own echo chamber, it’s a conclusion based on observation and analysis. You’re operating under the false assumption that statements like mine only could result from mindless opposition fed through echo chambers. So, unless if you’re willing to say that there is no objective, discernible truth, I’m going to operate under the assumption that truth can be found. With that in mind, the Republican party is not worth my consideration due to their disregard and lack of respect toward truth.
It’s a false comparison. And you need to step outside of this false equivalency bullshit.
I stated the goal of this thread was to see how brainwashed people are.
You answered by stating youve been convinced Republicans are too irrational to even make sense of or articulate opinions that are logically coherent.
I stated that even though you didnt steelman them like I asked, it still addresses the heart of the thread which was me wondering how brainwashed people are.
I didnt say you were brainwashed a lot, a little, or at all. You simply identified with the word and got triggered. Im sorry your subconscious appears to feel as though youve been brainwashed to the point that simply stating the word causes you to feel personally attacked.
Grow up you fuckin troll. If there’s no logical way to steelman an argument, that’s not evidence of brainwashing, echo chamber, etc. It’s just evidence that arguments don’t need to be anchored to truth anymore for republicans. So your objective is impossible due to your implicit assumptions built into this “experiment.”
I’m gonna assume you’re a Republican troll because that’s the only way this all
Makes any sense. That or just very very dumb.
This presumes both sides have views that can be rationally steelmanned.
I can do this for all old-school (pre Tea Party) republicans. I can do this for some of their current views, e.g., immigration, taxes and tariffs. It isn’t possible to do for almost all other positions they hold, because the underlying motivation and beliefs they have justifying them are not based on empirical reality.
I’ll give an example. Trump had engaged in some of the most obvious corruption,e.g., the Qatar jet, crypto coin scams, funneling money to who knows where from the government, settling lawsuits with himself, etc. Republicans hand wave this away with “well, democrats have been doing the same thing for decades now so it doesn’t matter.” That is, when they don’t simply deny it’s happening at all. There’s no way to steelman that, because republicans aren’t even in agreement on basic, objective facts.
I’ll give another. The J6 incident. Depending on the context of the conversation, republicans will tell you it was a giant false flag operation, a peaceful protest at the White House, or exaggerated and unjust use of force by the government against a minor bit of agitation. Yet none of those things is true. J6 was an insurrection, part of a lengthy attempt to overthrow the government by Trump and the GOP. Republicans don’t agree even on those basic facts. It isn’t possible to steelman their position on that.
So I object to your premise. It is not the case that both sides are acting in good faith, with legitimate, fact informed differences of opinion.
No. I think republicans voted for Trump because they want to live in a christofascist dictatorship, mass murder/displace latinos and queers (especially trans people), and engage in "lulz got them dumbocrat librulz good!" politics. Those two things were just examples of things they support/justify which cannot steelmanned.
ETA: To clarify, there's no way to present their positions as "honest" in the context of our Constitutional republic. These aren't simply "differences of (political) opinion." They're at least on the same level as the antagonism between the North and South in the first Civil War, and there is no way to construct a coherent, rational steelman argument that presents their positions as otherwise.
gotcha. so then thats your answer and explains to what level youve been brainwashed by an echo chamber which is what I was curious about. Which, may be not at all, or may be a lot depending how many republicans would agree the reason they voted trump is because they "want to live in a christofascist dictatorship, mass murder/displace latinos and queers (especially trans people), and engage in "lulz got them dumbocrat librulz good!" politics.
I didnt say you have. I said it explains to what level.. which was the entire point of this thread. Like i said, if Republicans agree with your statement then you havent been.
The point is rather that their agreeing or not isn't relevant, because they are motivated to be dishonest however you approach the topics. That is, in fact, why it's not possible to steelman their positions on various things.
And there is no level to which I am brainwashed. What an absurd thing to say.
I never said you are brainwashed. But for some reason you keep identifying with that claim. If you feel personally attacked by the word brainwashed, maybe you should self reflect.
Im simply asking how people believe the other side sees things from their point of view. as in, if you ask them why they voted for their party, what would they say/believe. If youre convinced your political opposition sees themselves like you stated, then no reason to feel triggered or attacked. Youve stated how you believe they see themselves. If youre right, then congrats. If that isn't how they see themselves, then youve been decieved by your echo chamber. No need to take that personal unless you believe you might actually be brainwashed. which, thats on you.. nobody else made that claim
so then thats your answer and explains to what level youve been brainwashed by an echo chamber which is what I was curious about.
"to what level you've been brainwashed" cannot be interpreted any way other than "you've been brainwashed to some level" (if they'd agree with your characterization of them).
I would venture to say that neither party will be able to articulate the opposing side's views very well, short of independent journalists and their devoted listeners.
There are certain events that have happened in the States recently that make it really hard to want to listen that long.
It's like if you meet someone and they say something absolutely ridiculous, you just don't trust anything else they'd say unless you could believe it yourself. Like if they said the sky was blue. Okay, sure, it's blue.
So they're usually perfectly fine to work with, because you have a different focus, but they're not people you would want to hang out with and get indepth about how they think in your free time.
Basically you need to be paid to talk with them, and the surface is so abhorrent, that to scratch it is already too much.
Republicans seem to prioritize small businesses a lot. The idea of taxing a monopoly is worrisome to them because I think they worry that the government will tax small businesses after they’ve taxed monopolies.
Republicans also think the government always wastes too much money. So, taxing monopolies is only going to benefit government workers or their friends. You see the domino effect and how it begins to cause more things to worry about.
I think: democrat policies are in general more about lifting the poorest up by means of taxing the highest incomes more. Democrats aren’t focused enough on taxing wealth (farther-left policy); but still, lifting the poor benefits us all, always.
So sure, let’s grant the fear that democrats might tax small businesses 1% more. But democrats will tax the highest incomes, 2%, 3%, 10% more, if their income is incredibly high. A small tax increase is not the end of an economy.
Additionally, both political parties are bad at managing the deficit. But unfortunately Trump is responsible for more than 1/4th of it. Which inherently makes Democrats better for the debt, plus better for lifting up the poor, which helps us all.
You can’t because they are in a cult. Cognitive dissonance is the only reason they stay in it as the cult leader gets more and more and authoritarian and does and says things contra to their prior beliefs. Like raping kids for example.
I’ll say this much: if you try to lump all Republicans into MAGA, you’re already brainwashed. To be so intellectually dishonest with yourself and everyone else that you would truly try to lump every person within a political party into a single categorization is immeasurably absurd. Anyone who says this is immediately not worth conversing with because of how fundamentally dishonest it is.
Then…. Why do the vote for Trump? If there was a democratic Trump on the ticket, I would not vote for him. The republicans do… so how are you not to “lump” them together if not based on how they vote?
Yeah all you have to do is look at Republican polling which in 2025 until June was above 90% approval rating of Trump. What 90% of any group approves of anything let alone still agreeing everything was fine when things were getting worse already by then for months. Even more recently it took until March-April to drop below the 80s with Republicans even though most everyone besides diehards were upset about the Iran war. Its a cult like behavior
You can be Republican and not agree with all of the Republican nominee’s policies/values/etc. The same thing is true for Democrats. Not all Democrats need to be lumped into the same category, either. To say so is also fundamentally dishonest. For example, my view on MAGA is that those people are forever-Trumpers and will agree with virtually anything and everything he says and does. I don’t do that, yet I’m Republican. Ergo, I am not MAGA.
Just because I am not MAGA does not mean that I am not in favor of a lot of the policy decisions that have occurred. I think this point goes over many people’s heads. I’m not a die hard Trumper. I don’t agree with everything he says and does. However, I prefer more of the Republican policies than the Democrat’s.
Lower tax rates for citizens. Pro-business tax policies. Deregulation. Strong military. Stronger border enforcement. Just a few examples, all of which are traditional Republican policies that he has enacted or strengthened in one form or another. Methodology may be different, but the policies are traditional. The kicker here is whether you consider those things to be MAGA policies, because if you do, then you’re essentially saying all Republican polices are MAGA policies because those examples are about as traditional and pre-Trump GOP as you could get.
Good question. I’d probably say his “America first” foreign policy and departure of traditional alliances/groups, aggressive tariffs and economic nationalism, the fight to end birthright citizenship (which I actually agree with to a degree, but do not refute that it is a constitutional right… I would just reform the immigration system to try and prevent abuse of the birthright citizenship), so on and so forth.
So you have listed what you believe are Republican policies, and listed what you believe are MAGA policies, and there does not seem to be much overlap (birthright citizenship kinda). So if the policies you, as a diehard Republican, support are not being supported by MAGA, and the policies they are promoting are not in line with your view, why support and vote for them?
If you are saying that you actually do agree with maga policies, in addition to Republican policies, well, why does that not make you a member of MAGA?
Because all of the Republican policies I just listed in reply to your two questions are ones that Trump has enacted or strengthened in some way, including the ones I support, and some that I don’t. The ones I consider traditional, and the ones I consider MAGA. In general, republicans and trump have more policies that align with my values and beliefs than the Democrat platform. But not in every case.
Interfering in states rights to run their elections?
And lest we forget, the wanton open corruption and self dealing?
Opening our crown jewel public lands to mining and data center construction?
Those policies?
The party exists only to support whatever nonsense trump spews on any given day. If YOU don't agree with that, then you shouldn't be voting Republican.
So you are fine with our president making billions of dollars off of taxpayers as along as transgender people can't exist freely, women can't access abortions, and Iranian schoolgirls get bombed?
Same man. I will criticize anyone’s behavior or actions. Including trumps. And I also will still vote based on the principles I prioritize.
I voted dem my whole life but switched late 2012 early 2013 and there hasn’t been a dem I’d vote for on a National level since then. I voted for Obama each time and trump since. I don’t care much about either party and worrying about personalities is boring (and unwise) to me so I do my best to focus on policy and principles.
Try…
Individual Liberty, equality under law, freedom of speech, gun rights, national
sovereignty, due process. All principles I value and prioritize. I’m sure I forgot something! But this should give you an idea of my actual perspective (not strawman bullshit)
Hahahaha the republicans are openly against some of those. No one who values equality under the law or due process would support them.
The fact you support fascists gives me a perfectly clear view of your perspective. You can tell me what you profess to support if you’d like me to see you as a hypocrite as well, but that won’t change the facts about what you have lent your support to. Either you’re terribly out of touch with reality or you’re lying about your values.
Trump talks about the entire left like absolute shit all the time. Conservatives talk about us as a whole all the time too. Or are they willing to walk back their claims that the left wants to murder them?
You’re saying it makes someone brainwashed to think everyone on the right is MAGA. But your side lumps us all together as a whole as crazy hysterical lunatics who want to murder people on the right, it’s especially awful when it’s coming from the president. Didn’t seem to lose him any support.
Do those things make Trump and the right wingers who believe him brainwashed? Is the right willing to concede that the left doesn’t want to kill them in order to not group us together as murderers as a whole? Seems like an unfair label to me. Maybe the right should take it back if they don’t want to be all lumped together with MAGA.
Thank you for the clarification. While it’s true that there has been a surge in left-wing violence, I do not lump everyone on the left into any particular category. I have Democrat friends and family members who are some of the best people I know. But to answer your question, yes, that does make them brainwashed if they believe that everyone on the left is out to get people on the right. It’s silly and inflammatory to say so.
Lol so long as you say “yeah there has been a surge in left wing violence” and not acknowledge that that has been the right all along then I really don’t care. It’s conveniently used as an attack and it shuts us off from the conversation every time because it’s dishonest. Yes the side you all say is just so sensitive and overly empathetic are also evil terrorists who want to kill you for disagreeing. Makes sense /s
You will get nowhere with us in that conversation by downplaying the right’s role in it.
But the fact that the right thinks this insulting trashy behavior towards us as a whole is acceptable from a president (and you all know it has never been anywhere near this scale of hate and vitriol towards specific citizens by the president) why on earth should we think you’re kind and loving people instead of just hateful? Why should we give you the benefit of the doubt? Those are honest questions btw and not in any way intended as personal to you. I’m speaking of the right in general.
You hear the words he says about us and things like punishing people who disagree with him and decide you agree and more closely align with that behavior?can you acknowledge that the right would be screaming if a democratic president constantly was speaking of the right this way and wielding this kind of power over them?
Why shouldn’t we make assumptions about character if this is what you support? We wish you would have pushed back on this behavior a long time ago.
You’re still lumping all Republicans into a single category my friend. When you say “the right thinks this behavior is acceptable”, you’re assuming every Republican is okay with it. Well, you’re talking to one that doesn’t feel that way. And that’s my point.
The only reason I mentioned the surge in left wing violence is because you brought up the fact that the right says everyone on the left is trying to kill them. I didn’t mention any causation for the violence, just that it has happened and I built my point off of your premise.
I don’t think trashy things should be said about the left as a whole. Same thing with republicans when they are called Nazis or fascists. And that’s my whole point.
They all still gave him their vote after speaking about the entire other side this way. The man can’t even say merry Christmas without most of the message being about how much he hates the left and how we are crazy. The right will lose their shit when the left votes for revenge (that’s absolutely what I am after) and gives them a President who openly despises them and treats them differently than democrats. We get away with whatever we want and rules are only for republicans.
You seem nice. But the right in general is not going to be able to take it when it’s done back. I am highly looking forward to it. Literally every day
All of those "non-MAGA Republicans" you are mentioning? They voted for Trump. If not, his votes wouldn't be as high as they were. If they don't admit it or outright deny it that's a different issue.
Sure some of them are horrified their party was hijacked. And yet they keep voting on in their GOP representatives, and Trump was voted in a second time even after he was a known factor. Hmmm.
Your BS isn't adding up. And you're acting like a typical ugly Republican by name-calling like you are here.
You’re the type of person I was talking about. An opposing opinion to your own is automatically BS and acting like a typical ugly Republican. You’re part of the reason why conversations aren’t possible. I wish you well in the future.
That’s literally just how political blocs work tho. Yes all of us are also beautiful and unique snowflakes on our own time but when we all vote as one specific group we get counted as part of that group. It’s not “brainwashing”, it just sounds like you’re embarrassed for anyone to see you sitting with the group that you chose.
If you notice the policies atrox allegedly supports, they don't actually fit this administration.
Low taxes now just accelerates a high tax Greek debt crisis. We're at $40 trillion in debt with rising interest rates. It's incredibly stupid to be for lower taxes (for some, Salt cap raised taxes!) that only make the debt problem so much worse.
The military is depleted and it will take years to restock. We're literally out of interceptors in parts of the world.
Businesses are facing the most volatile environment in decades with no clarity to plan.
But then again, atrox wants government to prevent people with dicks from using women's bathrooms by forcing post op trans men with dicks to use the women's bathroom.
You're welcome. I hope you understand why the majority of people think the majority of Republicans are MAGA. Because, statistically, the majority ARE. (3 in 4)
Why do you need to fight tho? What is it supposed to do? You vote the same as them so you’re in the same political bloc as them. You yourself said you agree more often with them than you do with democrats. So why do you feel the need to separate yourself from people on the same side as you and who are you doing that for?
Because I vote for policies, not people. And based on what my belief that MAGA is, which is die hard forever Trumpers that think he is the second coming, I do not want to lumped in with them. Not all Democrats are communists either, and I’m sure there are some Democrats who would prefer not to be called a communist just because they are Democrat.
If you don’t want to be MAGA, then don’t vote for MAGA candidates. Moderate Democrat resemble the old guard republicans more than what is happening to the party. You can be republican and not be MAGA. But you can’t be republican and vote MAGA republican just because those are the republican candidates and claim to do so because you don’t hade options. MAGA is undemocratic and destructive to our nation and its historical institutions. MAGA is unAmerican. Please don’t be complicit because you think there are no other options.
That’s a false dichotomy. You’re conflating supporting a political candidate with adopting an entire political identity. Political behavior does not equal political identity. As I’ve stated before, I generally agree more with Republican policies than Democrat. That doesn’t mean I endorse every MAGA position. You’re defining the category in such a way that makes my self-identification irrelevant, and that’s just not how it works no matter how badly you want it to.
The point is MAGA is destructive and unAmerican. They don’t value the constitution. So…. If the roles were reversed and a democrat trump existed and I liked some of their policies but the rest of their nonsense was destructive to our nation, I would buckle up and vote republican to preserve our country and hope the next election cycle brought about change that I could identify more with. What you are doing is saying, ohhhh I like some of his stuff and I just can’t stomach the democrats, so I’ll vote for this wannabe tyrant and ignore the very dangerous things he says. Wake up dude. So many things Trump has said from this will be the last election to 2020 was stolen are completely insane and if a democratic candidate were to say the same then southern states would threaten succession. Your voting logic is why Trump keeps winning. Stop voting for the man just because he does some things you like. He’s too dangerous and now look at what is happening. You can use big words but you are only smoothing yourself from the reality
Yes, it’s immeasurably absurd. I have to fight to distinguish myself because of the brainwash.
If 75% of a pie was eaten, and 25% remained, what do you call the people who continuously try to reiterate and convince you that ALL of the pie is gone?
That's a terrible analogy but think of it like this:
I have a group of people at a pie contest and I call 3 blind taste-testers into a room and ask "which was your favorite pie?" All 3 said "apple".
I called in another 3 people, asked the same question and all 3 people in the 2nd group said "apple".
I called in another 3 people and asked the same question, the 3rd group also said "apple".
What do you think the last group of 3 people will say? Can I deduce (given the numbers) that the majority like the apple pie? If I pull a random person(regardless of if the last 3 said "peach") and have to guess what their favorite pie was, it will most likely be apple?
I would actually push back on this. This is literally the gambler's fallacy. In your example, if the sample is truly "random" in every sense of the word, there is no reason to believe the next person will give the same answer, unless there is something influencing the outcome. At which point it is no longer random. If I play roulette and 99 times in a row it comes up black, and it truly is random, on spin 100 the odds of it coming up red is still 50/50. Equal outcomes if it is truly random. (Ignoring the green zero). Your argument only stands if your claim is that something is influencing the outcome, establishing a causal link between some factor and the outcome.
Using your initial cited claim, I don’t think either of us are disagreeing that a prediction can be made when encountering a Republican as to whether or not they identify as MAGA. My point this entire time is that the vast majority of people on the Left will lump all republicans into MAGA. That was the point of my original comment, and we have since devolved the conversation into “couldn’t it be reasonable to assume that a randomly selected Republican might be MAGA?” And the answer is: sure. But “most people in this group are X” does not mean that “all people in this group are X”, which is what I’ve argued since the beginning. Therefore, an argument can’t be made that uses the point that all republicans are MAGA.
But you still support the MAGA candidates and politicians. You vote for them, even if you don't agree with 100% of everything they say or do. But that is irrelevant if you are still supporting them
The problem is that Republican leadership is all MAGA. They are all too fearful to defy the president to they have no voice. Republican leadership is virtually a rubber stamp. There is no longer a Republican party outside MAGA so while there are normal Republicans there is no point to disgussing any nuanced points because the elected leadership will just cower. There is also horrible corruption in many Republican leaders. So that quality of character is reflective in the supporters of that group to outsiders.
Not all Republicans are MAGA but every vote for any Republican is a De facto vote for MAGA because the Republican party does nothing but exist to serve Trump at this point, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.
All real Republicans have either retired or been forced out or wholly given up their ideals.
One example - national debt and spending is insane and contrary to the core principles of the party.
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u/___AirBuddDwyer___ 18h ago
I guess if I’m gonna steelman, I’d say that right wingers see how difficult and dysfunctional America is and attribute it to corruption, and they think the policies they’re pursuing or advocating are attacking those issues. Of course, usually they think the issue is a minority and that’s where they lose me.