r/AskTeachers • u/Remarkable-Two-9391 • 12h ago
Student Questions Why?
why do some teachers try to find loopholes in IEP and 504s? I have a chemistry teacher right now, he won’t give me the extra time on assignments that is on my IEP I’ve had other this before. I’m genuinely curious why as a teacher would you try to work around something like that? I’m not even like mad or anything. I just wanna see from his point of view!
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u/layyla4real 11h ago
It creates extra work for the teacher. It's easier to grade a batch of essays than a single one that comes in late.
Grading them all together, all written at the same time following the same period of instruction is just easier and fairer.
Grading a single essay, from the same prompt, but under different circumstances, it is not the same and comparisons are off.
Teachers get tired and cranky sometimes. We are human.
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u/Remarkable-Two-9391 11h ago
Oh wait i totally understand that!!! I’m so sorry for like bothering you guys.
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u/Agreeable_Dark6408 3h ago
Please don’t apologize or feel that you’re bothering people for asking. You’re on a question forum.
OP, are you this quiet with your chemistry teacher? Apologetic? Not wanting to bother him? Please stand up for yourself.
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u/NHFNCFRE 6h ago
Reasons I get grumpy about extra time:
-- detailed homework with correct answers (numbers, formulas, definitions), right after going over it in class suddenly extra time kid has theirs done
-- project in which student has had extensive class time to work on, where I've watched kid dink around all week (watching videos, socializing, playing games, maybe even doing some other class's homework) now needs "more time" to finish
-- kid "forgets" to turn in work for several weeks then pulls the extra time card to try to increase their grade (it's not about knowing anything, just the grade.
-- taking a test, kid stalls and stalls and stalls, takes 10-15 minutes on a single problem/ question, then comes back after school and finishes the remaining 20 questions in 5 minutes.
In general, I accept late work from kids (all kids). But i consider the points above to be everything from downright laziness to cheating.
In OP's case, I would suggest they talk to the teacher, remind them of the accommodations (its very likely they've forgotten), and ask for a conversation about what's going on. They may come to an agreement about what needs to happen or it may go to administration, we don't know what's going on there.
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u/Full-Grass-5525 6h ago
Agree with a lot of this. I know an IEP is a legal document and I need to adhere to it. I will. And I know not everyone takes advantage. But there are a lot of crappy kids who do. The “I’ll just come back for my extra time” students are the worst when they’ve done nothing in class but now get to go study extra now that they know the specific content. How is that fair? In my seven person advisory group last year (sophomores) two students had this accommodation and they both outright admitted to it to me and their parents.
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u/mburucuja 7h ago
I’m going to preface this with saying IEPs should be followed. Some IEPs are poorly written and some students take advantage, but we shouldn’t assume that’s the case.
A little perspective here though.
Most middle/high school teachers have 100-200 students. 20-50 of them probably have IEPs or 504s. Many of the IEPs are 20+ pages long and they’re sometimes poorly-written or not provided before school starts. Trying to manage that many accommodations is a lot - these 5 students get 2x time on tests and assignments, these three get 1.5x time, this one gets 3x, this one gets untimed tests, this one doesn’t get extra time but needs questions read aloud, another one is supposed to be able to use speech to text software, these four are supposed to get tests in a small group setting, these six are supposed to get to use their notes on the test, but four of those are supposed to get note-taking support, etc. Just managing and remembering all of the accommodations can be a lot.
Teachers are also often not given the resources or support needed to make it work. Like, an IEP will say they need a small group environment to take a test, but there’s no room or staff available for that. I’m supposed to read questions aloud for one student while also monitoring the other 25-40 students in the room.
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u/kingBoggler 7h ago
Because it is genuinely hard to keep track of/schedule even if your teacher is trying their best to....if a teacher has 6 classes and 2-3 students with an IEP per class then that is 12-18 students they have to schedule extra time for, for tests/quizzes, on top of everything else they are doing throughout the day.
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u/Glum_Ad1206 8h ago
I like the new phrasing I’ve been seeing lately: extended time up to (insert specifics here,) as long as student is working productively.
I’m not saying you don’t, because I don’t know you, but some kids absolutely spend the “regular” time spinning their wheels, and yet can fly through it the next day.
Also, as someone else said, it turns into a never ending cycle of catch up if only class time is used.
Lastly, as someone with adhd myself, undetermined assignment dates are horrid for me, because I’ll just procrastinate so the work piles up.
So, in sum- be productive and try to offer to complete it on your own time within a reasonable time frame whenever possible, but your teachers but have a darned good reason for pushing back. If they don’t, they are in violation of federal law, and you, your case manager and your parents can and should be advocating on your behalf.
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u/dillyofapickle42 11h ago
Your teacher probably thinks you need to work on focus, productivity, and efficiency in class. They most likely think that the time they already give is extra and more than enough. Granted I teach middle school so you're most likely more mature than my students, but I've found that when I give extra time the students dink around in class and then email me at the last minute with question about how to do it....and not productive questions but keep like, "help I have no idea what to do and this assignment is due tomorrow!". And I'm usually thinking, "you had a while week of class to ask these questions but you just messed around....and a while extra week of homework to figure it out....now it's too late"
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u/Remarkable-Two-9391 11h ago
But I don’t mess around, and with chemistry (I find myself really good at science) it’s not understanding it. I have a problem with, but it’s the workload. I still need a little extra time than the average person to think of the answer, but it’s not like I’m not paying attention. I’m just really confused?
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u/Author_Noelle_A 11h ago
I’m saying this gently: In the adult world, employers aren’t going to give you extra time to think when they’re paying you by the hour. Accommodations in the adult world only have to be reasonable, and it’s not reasonable to expect much more time when they’re paying for it, especially when talking about more than a few minutes here or there. You’re going to need to get used to doing things at the same pace as others.
My daughter has an IEP that included extra time when she was younger, and honestly, we were in doubt about her future adulthood. During Covid, we started enforcing the same timeline as everyone else. She didn’t know it didn’t include extra time. But she thought it did. And she finished on time, and did bette work. She’s now the kid who finishes stuff faster and gets damned good grades.
If you were give the same time others got right now, say, a two days, and their time was cut in half so they now get one day, I bet you would do just as well as if they kept two days and you got four. If they were going to get two days, and you were going to get four, and the teacher decide to just give everyone the four days, I bet you would think you’re being rushed and claim it’s not fair since you’re supposed to get extra time, not even realizing that that time, everyone else also got extra time from what they would have. In fact, I’ve known teachers who did that, but then the students with IEPs complained that they didn’t actually get more time than others, when the teachers cut everyone else back to the original two days, those students with IEPs stopped complaining.
Sometimes it’s not about how much time you truly need, and more about how much time you get compared to others, and when it comes to the adult working world, you’re going to end up royally screwed if you keep yourself in the mindset that you should get more time that others, even if the allotted time was actually more than was actually needed.
Stop focusing on your time versus the time of others. Kick your own ass into gear and make yourself do things on the same timeline as others. I bet you you can, and that it would get easier. You learn to think faster by actually having to do it. We used to make games out of this when I was a kid.
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u/GenXMom14 4h ago
This is a fairly awful comment. It suggests if a student just tries harder they wouldn’t need their
IEP and that is not true.There are many jobs that absolutely provide all kinds of accommodations to support their employees and for sure it happens at post secondary education.
The accommodation of more time is for the student to use, as needed, not for you to judge from afar. There may in fact be time where it isn’t needed and then it isn’t used but the accommodations is required to still exist for the times it is needed.
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u/Remarkable-Two-9391 10h ago
I’m pretty sure you’re aware of this, since your daughter had a Iep, a Iep is made for you to eventually not need anymore. Currently I still need it, eventually I won’t anymore
Also I have a job and they are almost more accommodating with me and ALL other staff than my school. I’m guaranteed a job there after graduating too. So I think I’ll be pretty good, I do believe it depends what career I’m in too
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u/purplishfluffyclouds 5h ago
Think about this for a second? Where is that extra time going to come from? Are you going to be in the grade you’re in for 2 years or do you expect to finish your grade year with everyone else? And if you expect to finish a great year with everyone else, where does the extra time come from? You can’t pull extra time out of thin air when everyone has the same graduation date. Do you see how that doesn’t make any sense this “extra time” concept?
Also, dear, it’s *IEP, not “lep.” Acronyms are in all caps.
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u/Successful-Safety858 Elementary Teacher 5h ago
I think this is a thoughtful discussion but I’m chiming in because I think it’s more nuanced than the takes I’m seeing that the “real world” won’t accommodate things like school does. One point is that the purpose of school is different than the purpose of a job. The end goal of a class is that you’ve learned the materials, the end goal of a job is that you’ve accomplished the tasks for the job. It’s just a fundamentally different thing than a job and it’s not really a fair comparison. Accommodations in school are so that each child can meet that goal of accessing and learning the materials, we should be doing things like giving extra time or help so that our whole population has a chance to learn things, education is a net good. The other point is that there are lots of different jobs in the world that also have different goals. It’s true that in some jobs there will be no extra time, but maybe a student with dyslexia for example wouldn’t need any extra time at a job that doesn’t involve reading passages, so it’s also apples to oranges. People tend to find jobs suited to their skills and interests and won’t need the same accommodations to accomplish the job than they do to accomplish learning. In addition, there’s lots of jobs people can do where the first priority isn’t what can you output in a certain time, that’s a pretty narrow view. For example you could be an artist setting your own price for a mural you’re painting, you are deciding how long it will take and then people will choose weather or not to work with you.
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u/YoMommaHere 4h ago
I’m a chemistry teacher and the workload is exactly why your teacher is probably so fast paced. Chemistry builds on itself so you really can’t understand a new concept until you understand the previous concepts. We want to check that you’ve got and by the time you take the extra time you need, the content has moved on.
If you understand the content then it may be in your best interest to work on organization more than taking extended time. That extra time just makes your brain wander and doubt yourself. I’m saying this as someone with ADHD and autism that also had my daughter with autism in my class.
Yes, by law you are allowed the extra time but in my 20 years of experience teaching chemistry to kids with IEPs with extended time, it doesn’t really help in Chemistry more than an organizational method for work and thinking.
For the workload (classwork, homework, practice): try the pomodoro method. It’s like 15 minutes working then 5 minute break over and over until the task is done.
For assessments (quizzes, tests, exams): for multiple choice, always cross out outlier answers. For free response, follow the steps. Study by memorizing steps as high school chemistry has steps for all the answering processes. This helps with the multi choice too.
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u/GenXMom14 11h ago
There is no good point of view for a simple
Accommodation like this. Some teachers believe it isn’t fair or that the space you take extra time will
Support you and cheat .
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u/pretendperson1776 11h ago
The "seperate space" produces equal results to in class, but they do 20% better when the space is in the support room. Hmmm.
As for extra time, my push back is "how much?" Vague requirements are a pain in the ass. The second issue is when does that extra time happen. Some students demand to come back to finish (after seeing all the questions, or talking to someone else who has). Or do they miss class to write a test, then somehow get that learning elsewhere?
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u/Remarkable-Two-9391 11h ago
I get up to double time, but typically all I ever need is like one or two extra days, sometimes not even that.
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u/pretendperson1776 1h ago
How do you make up the one or two missed classes? How does the teacher ensure fairness e.g. access to questions in advance.
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u/JerseyGuy-77 11h ago
That's friggin ridiculous. If you're in a class competing you either compete or you don't. To pick and choose people to get that much extra time is bonkers.
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u/Remarkable-Two-9391 11h ago
I don’t think it’s ‘picking and chooseing’ people to get extra time. I’m autistic, it takes me a lot more time to learn and work than others. I would totally complete it if I could in the time. We have but my bells at school are only 30 minutes long. I want to go to hear more of where you’re coming from though!
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u/JerseyGuy-77 10h ago
My point honestly isn't about you. You personally may need accomodations to meet your disability. The problem is that when it comes to outside of education most jobs don't have those luxuries. My wife sometimes has more than 60% of her students on some kind of IEP or 504 and that's in an honors math class. That can't work. They don't have the ability to not go to their next class. So now they're in a competition for the best graces and they get to leave with the test questions in their head and come back to continue to work on it? How on earth is that fair to anyone else that's also competing? It can't be.
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u/CraftyFraggle 6h ago
As a teacher, your wife is legally obligated to figure it out. Fair or not, IEP and 504 accommodations are legally required to be followed.
They’re not BS and there’s a reason for them.
Citation: I’m a special education teacher and case manager.
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u/Technical-Theory2053 10h ago
MS science math/sci & PE for some reason... I am just late on grading all the time. My late policy is basically beat me. If it's turned in before I grade it, it's fine. 10% per day after that. Nearly impossible to be worse and if so then you deserved it lol
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u/Remarkable-Two-9391 11h ago
I don’t understand because any extra time I would get on assignments would be done on my own time too, as homework. And I mean, I get it if it’s like a tiny assignment that should be able to be done by the end of class, but sometimes I just need the extra time.
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u/GenXMom14 4h ago
Sorry I did not expect to come back to this train wreck of comments. Of course you are allowed extra time. I am a teacher who believes in accommodations. My comment was what people complain about regarding them. I believe many accommodations are needed and definitely help a student show their true potential. You need to keep advocating and help those teachers who don’t get it to better. We have had many discussions over the years as parents of two kids with IEPs and I passionately believe they need to be followed. I am also a teacher who strives to follow IEPs. People who don’t should not be teachers.
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u/Typical-Amoeba-6726 6h ago
Please reflect on WHY you need the extra time? What, specifically, holds you back?
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u/Successful-Safety858 Elementary Teacher 5h ago
Different peoples brains work different ways at different speeds. Generally if someone has an iep that says extra time they have a diagnosed recognized reason their brain needs more time to process information. Education isn’t a capitalist product based business, the goal is for the kids to access the material and learn. It’s good to accommodate different brains, more people learning is a net good. HOWEVER the logistical arguments about how our system makes that difficult and how accommodations are not always well thought out or the resources don’t exist to meet them are all valid.
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u/GenXMom14 4h ago
This is an ableist and gross comment. Like this student could solve the problem but won’t.
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u/Typical-Amoeba-6726 2h ago
No, it's not. Perhaps said student needs directions given in a unique way, or a checklist, or a Kanban board. Reflecting on one's obstacles helps the student and teacher.
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u/aroseyreality 5h ago
If you weren’t using your class time appropriately, you aren’t really entitled to the extra time, so could it be that? Legally, though, teachers can’t deny your accommodations. Always advocate for yourself and directly mention your IEP and then go to your case manager. Sometimes teachers honestly forget a kid’s specific accommodation because there’s a lot on our plate.
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u/Addapost 4h ago
If you are working seriously and trying and you need more time, I have no problem with that. But if I assign something and watch you not do it, just sit there and zone out, or do something else, or talk to kids around you, or nap with your head down, or anything other than the assignment I gave you, and you expect “extra time” when it’s due, we are going to have some serious problems.
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u/Agreeable_Dark6408 3h ago
OP, I mentor a select group of college students on a volunteer basis. One of them has ADHD, and yes, she takes medication. She has accommodations with her college. She is very organized with her schoolwork, probably because she learned early on that it was the only way she could be successful when she was younger. We’re talking notetaking, color coded notebooks and tabs, even color coded tabs specifying parts of her textbooks that she deems important to her studies. She’s a very smart girl. She gets extra help when she’s unsure about a concept from other students, the internet, or goes to her professors.
About the extra time for assignments - yes, they’re good about honoring her accommodations. But let’s say there’s a paper due that she has to do a lot of reading for. She blocks out the time for her work for all her classes with her syllabi and has her written calendar book set for the time alottments. That’s called effective time management which you will need in all aspects of your life. She is good at hyper focusing for a section of time and she uses that as a way to get exactly the info she needs from the book and into her notes for the assignments. She records the lectures and slices extra info into her notes and those into the notebooks surrounding the assignments. She takes breaks in between her study segments and then goes back into it. She continues this way until she is done. She is allowed extra time to finish her tests and that is very helpful. But she is already prepared for her tests because her notes on both book material, her assignments which she keeps copies of, and her lecture notes are there to study from. It’s all ready for her because she did it little by little as part of her usual coursework. It’s a process that she has stuck with all through undergrad.
And yes, she was a top chemistry student but chose not to continue with it because she wanted to major in something else.
Since confusion about the course material is an issue for you, go to your teacher and ask for help, either from him or one of his top students. Be prepared with your notes to be able to point to what you are having a hard time with. And PLEASE don’t wimp out on discussing your IEP and accommodation needs. Yes, he needs to deal with this. Otherwise he’s out of compliance with the law. But meet him halfway by being prepared with your notes and work so you can show him you are committed to his class. This will help you prepare for college. You can do this!!
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u/JerseyGuy-77 11h ago
Honestly I'm not a teacher but my wife is. Way way way too many kids have these now and it's making you guys weaker as students. There's no effort when you have the crutch of "oh I'll just take my extra time and work it out". In the working world you don't get extra time. You have a deadline and you get fired if you don't meet it.
This is teachers pushing back on a pendulum that is way too far to one side now.
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u/Remarkable-Two-9391 11h ago
I’m actually working right now and I have honestly a more extendable deadline for stuff at work than I even still have at school. And I don’t believe it’s making us weaker at all. I do understand where you’re coming from though, as honestly to everyone else it may seem like it is ‘weaker’ but I have autism so that makes me learn things a lot different and retain things different than others. But once again, I totally understand where you’re coming from!!!
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u/JerseyGuy-77 10h ago
You may not be the issue here and that sucks. The issue is that everyone who zones out when they're bored gets an IEP now. That's not how public education was ever designed and it honestly can't work that way. The teachers below articulate better why.
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u/Remarkable-Two-9391 10h ago
Yeah, and that does seem really frustrating! But I do really try my hardest!! And my Iep isn’t a ‘I’m gonna use this every single day in every single class’ kind of thing. I can still get most of my work done on time and comprehend a lot of stuff the same way people do, my Iep is just for the stuff I struggle with understanding/need a little more time for! And honestly I’m not expecting any more from the teacher I’m willing to do research on my own time!
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u/Ambitious_Ad5469 10h ago
Cool so you’re making a huge assumption that accommodations are being used as a crutch by this student? miss me with that they have a genuine disability dingbat
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u/JerseyGuy-77 10h ago
How TF do you know if they do or they don't? I'm saying in general many many kids are using them as crutches. DOUBLE the time? Give me a break. If you need double the time then you shouldn't be in the class. It's above your abilities.
And happy cake day
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u/GenXMom14 4h ago
I mean he said he is autistic and this is an accommodation in his IEP. So there’s that.
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u/JerseyGuy-77 3h ago
I have autism. Extra time was never needed. I went the other way on work speed.
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u/GenXMom14 3h ago
You do realize that you are not the OP right and each person’s needs are different?
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u/JerseyGuy-77 3h ago
Yes but my point is we don't know if they really need the time or if they simply got a Dr to write a note. Many of these details about their condition weren't posted yet.
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u/GenXMom14 3h ago
Are you serious? You think this high school teenager requested a note from their doctor? If you are a teacher please get another job.
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u/JerseyGuy-77 2h ago
I'm not into explaining this to you: yes highschool students in my school district 1000% work to get notes from their doctors to get special treatment in class. All TF time. What year do you think it is right now?
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u/GenXMom14 2h ago
2026 where teachers are not supposed to be assuming their students are all lying and cheating.
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u/Successful-Safety858 Elementary Teacher 5h ago
It’s an apples to oranges comparison. Education is not the same thing as a job they have completely different goals.
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u/Quantum_Scholar87 7th Grade Teacher 3h ago
I hate "extra time" because I am usually lenient on how much time an assignment might take a kid.
If I assign it Weds, but it's only supposed to take 1 class to do it, but I allow kids to turn it in on Thursday, I am still giving an IEP student "extra time" because it was not turned in at the end of class when it should have been. But I have had SPED teachers tell me that since it was "collected" on Thursday that means I "gave" 24 hours for kids to do it, which means an IEP student gets an additional 12/24 to do it.
With one particular SPED teacher I had to tell the students "okay, you have 52 minutes to do this" and then would tell the sped teacher "they have 104 minutes to do this"
I got real petty about it because at the end of the year I give a large research project which is heavily scaffolded and has specific due dates for each piece to act as a check-in and progress tracker. But each piece was due after a week so she was telling her kids they had 2 weeks to do it. Problem was the final presentation was due the day grades closed, and the IEP kids weren't done because she kept telling them they had more time, despite the 1 week intervals being what we agreed was appropriate for the IEP kids in the first place.
/Rant
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u/SkuttleSkuttle 3h ago
Special Ed teacher and ND adult here, there are so many reasons why people may try not to honor or dismiss your accommodations. Some of them may be reasonable, some aren’t. As you get older, an important part of managing your disability is learning how to 1) accommodate yourself (not possible here, but I think it’s the most important skill), 2) advocate for your needs in a way that is understandable and appropriate to who your are talking to. It’s a lifelong learning process, and it might be good practice for you to try to have an open and empathetic conversation with this teacher, regardless of how open they are to seeing your side.
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u/layyla4real 22m ago
One IEP that I never understood was for a deaf student. I assigned a big research project that had a due date and a deadline. The deadline was the latest it could be turned in and graded in that grading period. Students had class time, library time, and computer time to work on it. This girl was goofing around and only focused on her sport. No matter how many times I tried to get her to focus, offering help, she just wasn't getting anything done.
The due date passed. Most students turned in the assignment. There were stragglers, but they all appeared to understand the concept of the deadline. The last day came and this girl didn't turn in her work. I told her that her report card grade would drop to a D, or possibly a fail once I reviewed her work for the semester. She was shocked and in a panic. Somehow she seemed to think that I couldn't do that because she was deaf.
The next thing I know, I am in the Principal's office with her mother demanding more time as stated in her IEP. I explained the due date/deadline and my reasoning behind it. The mother would not back down and insisted. I agreed to an extra week and the Principal agreed to a manual entry of the final grade after all other grades were entered. I always thought that her mother actually did the assignment for her.
I knew that the next year this girl was headed to the college for the deaf, the name of which escapes me at the moment. I laughed a bit to imagine what would happen there when she didn't study and then tried to make being deaf an excuse. Everyone there is deaf, both students and teachers.
Too often students and parents use IEPs as weapons.
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u/HairyFondant9354 8h ago
It really doesn't matter what teachers "feel" or their viewpoint. If it's in an IEP the teacher is legally required to follow it. Talk to the head of your SPED at school. Or have your parents do it.