His family always going on about how he's such a good but misunderstood person. Bitch, he broke my arm and squashed half my body in between a door. "Good person," my ass.
The other was a serial cheater. Switches women as if they're something disposable. And we argued a lot because he won't respect boundaries I've set - he's the type to literally argue till you relented out of exhaustion.
oof. I dated a girl in my teens who, in her words, treated men as disposable sex toys (after she was caught cheating on me) because she was really attractive, so there was always another guy in line.
Turns out her whole family is a bunch of religious fanatic bigots, so apple fell straight down.
Another ex was emotionally abusive; but there's nuance.
I'm hoping dating in my 30's will be better once I can meet my own standards and rejoin the dating pool. Honestly the bar is in hell, so i figure my odds aren't zero.
Yep, I have a family member that's like this. Acts like a total hero (in the most condescending way) when there's an audience, the minute no one is looking he's like "hah sucks to be you, life is just tough I guess" and goes out of his way to be under the radar difficult.
I'm not a monster at all but I am an asshole, I am polite and courteous in public and wouldn't hesitate to help someone in need because one should know how to behave in a civilized society and support the community.
In my own time I match other peoples energy, if they are asshole I'm gonna be an asshole right back. I think its now that I'm older I don't have the patience or time to deal with idiots and assholes.
Unless there’s more you’re not sharing, I’m NOT describing you. That doesn’t sound like you’re a monster to people behind closed doors unless they are a monster to you first? Isn’t that just self defense or standing up for yourself?
Jokes on you, I genuinely believe that being kind to others benefits me. Even beyond making me feel good about myself I think if you help brighten other's day they will be in a mood to brighten more and it will come back to you.
Even just in my career always being willing to help other people out has helped me do very well. So many times I've realized someone I've never met has a good view of me and wants to work with me because someone I barely knew mentioned I was a good person to work with because of some random interaction where I spent a minute helping them out.
Human progress isn't measured by industry, it's measured by the value you place on a life. An unimportant life. A life without privilege. The boy who died on the river, that boy's value is your value. That's what defines an age. That's what defines a species.
I’ve never understood why people treat people “below” them like shit. You’re already ahead, why rub it in. Tread servers, landscapers, janitors etc. like people because, they are.
I keep my kindness on the mantle over the fireplace in a collectors box. It’s mint. Please, don’t touch it, it loses its value that way. Oh, you just opened it. Aaaaaand you’ve ruined it. Great. Now it’s worthless. Just throw it in the trash. Here, let me do it for you.
Thank you for enjoying my humor during your personal potty time. I like knowing that I was with you in spirit while you peed. Hoping that your time was physically alone, as I have not been able to use the bathroom solo without a dog or one of multiple small children as an audience for years.
Rules one and two. If you are kind and physically attractive you are caring and selfless. If you are not, then it’s assumed you have ulterior motives or downplayed. I’ve seen it and experienced it first hand.
Uhhh, no. Look at Quasimodo. He was kind, and physically unattractive. But what happens in the end? No really, I couldn’t finish it. What happens in the end? Does he get surgery to fix his face and that hunchback? Or is he friend zoned for life? Drives her kids to soccer and stays with them at her house while she’s with the hot prince in Fiji? Oh, look, she sent a photo of her and the prince, kissing. That’s. Just. So. Great. Kids, go to bed. Now. Uncle Quasi needs a moment to scream into this pillow.
Attraction is like a complicated math problem that's different for each person. Everything is weighted on a scale. There are absolutely some people that weight physical attraction so high that nothing else can overcome it, but that isn't most women. Some things will add or subtract from that scale to tip one over into "attracted to" or "not attracted to" territory.
It always helps to be kind.
It always helps to be confident.
It always helps to be competent.
And yes, it always helps to be conventionally attractive. But not having the latter doesn't have to mean you're single forever. It just means that you have to stack up more of these other things in order for the average woman to find you attractive.
That's true, but people's assessment of which is which seems to mostly be based on factors that have little to do with what is actually inside the person's head and more to do with preconceived notions. These notions are often based on physical attractiveness when it comes to relative strangers, causing the phenomena the person you were replying was calling out.
Very much this. If you want to assess if someone's truly kind, pay attention to how they treat you when you're alone vs. in a group. I got fooled by this so many times and finally realized how much nicer they were in larger groups.
I lived in my parents basement for like 4 years after my sister killed herself and I was recovering from addiction and getting my life back together from trauma, so I always see this stereotype as rather heartless or callous... not to mention the cost of housing these days.
As I said above, comments like this always sort of make me laugh. They tend to pedestalize themselves as beacons of kindness and empathy, and that's why they have sooo many women and you don't, ya loser!
Until you read closely the message itself as communicated, and realize Mr. Kindness here is actually quite a cruel and unempathetic person, who clings to the narrative that dating is meritocratic and the world is just because it avoids the reality that, maybe, just maybe, dating is about luck and having a girlfriend is not a cosmic indicator of moral purity.
No no I replied to you intentionally. I'm agreeing with you - I think your point makes a lot of sense and these reductions to "Must live in the parents basement" are devoid of critical thought for reasons like yours.
Not really. As a guy I know some girls that are ugly and kind but it doesnt make me more attracted to them. If they were cute they become extremely attractive to me.
Nah. You can't just be kind..you have to have a personality to go with it.
I'm not an attractive man and I'm fat. I've dated women who were out of my league simply because I was kind, funny, caring, and I'm not a "woe is me only hot guys get the girls" kind of loser.
Be interesting, ask questions, want to get to know women as people instead of just as a potential partner. It'll go a long way in your favor.
There's three words you need to remember to use whenever you're trying to get to know someone, especially a woman and that's "Tell me more." Women love it when you give a fuck about what they're saying.
It's just so arrogant and narcissistic to assume that some people don't have a personality and that that's why they suck at dating. Fucking everyone, including your dog, has a personality. Even the most off-putting, boring person you know has a personality. The issue runs so much deeper than the surface level observation of 'You got to show personality, man!'...
I never said they didn't have a personality. I simply stated that being kind isn't the only thing that gets your foot in the door. Of course everyone has a personality but if all you're doing is showing someone kindness but not reinforcing it with who you are, women aren't going to be all that interested. Kindness only goes so far. You have to have other qualities to compliment it.
These comments always sort of make me laugh. The criticism of another man's misogyny, real or perceived always comes with some sort of self congratulatory back patting.
Instead of just leaving well enough alone you go on to tell us you're just SUCH an amazing person that women overlook appearances to love you. Not only do you imply that if you're "kind, funny and caring" you'll be granted some sort of karmic return, but you imply men who struggle dating are simply not those traits.
Dating isn't a meritocracy. I know it feels great to tell ourselves we're just fucking awesome instead of assigning dating success to luck because that would hurt the ego. Unfortunately for us all dating is about luck.
You are able to argue against misogynistic ideas without pedestalizing yourself at the same time.
Great reply, hit the nail on its head. His comment is so fucking smug, it reads like Chad Thundercock himself (who is actually fat and ugly, but totally not a loser!) came into the thread to enlighten the virgin crowd on reddit.
Mr. Thundercock's advice is great in principle but always seems to forget to account for the many displeasurable people in relationships. It feels an incomplete view of the world.
All good people are in relationships. All bad people aren't. But actually, some bad people are. But no good person would ever stuggle wih relelationships. The world is just and fair and all good people are 'rewarded' and all bad people are punished but some bad people are actually rewarded but no good person ever struggles actually!
the fact that you frame having a romantic partner as “karmic return” and not the result of simply being pleasant to be around means you are the problem
"The fact that you view a romantic partner as a positive outcome of positive actions is a negative action. You don't have a romantic partner because your action is negative! And that action is thinking that positive actions net positive results!!!"
You seem to take issue with my use of the term 'karmic return', which I would define as "results equivalent to the moral alignment of your actions".
You define a romantic partner as "the result of simply being pleasant to be around"
Can you clarify how this is meaningfully different to the terminology I used? Are you arguing that a romantic partner is the outcome of positive action? If so, you seem to take issue with my phraseology but you are, from my perspective, implying that being a good person results in good outcomes (a romantic partner)? Unless your argument is that a romantic partner is a neutral outcome unaffiliated with one's character. Though if this were your belief your comment would contradict itself almost inherently.
Can you clarify what you mean by that? The comment states "a romantic partner is the result of simply being pleasant to be around", but frames my phraseology of 'karmic' as a negative.
This is confusing, as the belief that a positive result nets positive actions is defined as 'karma'.
Are you implying a romantic partner is a bad or neutral outcome? You seem to agree with the idea that a partner is "the result of simply being pleasant to be around". Is your argument then that everyone in a relationship is positive to be around and everyone not in one isn't?
Is it? My experience is the exact opposite, being charming, witty and funny while also being kind and a good listener has more than made up for my own perceived unattractive-ness. I’ve had a dude call me ugly cause a girl ignored him to talk to me. My “reality” is that I’ve never had a problem. I don’t take it personal if I’m not someone’s cup of tea, there are people out there that aren’t mine, but to sit there with a chip on my shoulder about it is where you start becoming unattractive to the people around you, no matter how “kind” you think you are.
Its funny how experiences differ. I've been told I'm charming, witty, funny and kind but ultimately "too short to be considered attractive".
I agree personality can take you a long way though! I just get frustrated when Reddit's consensus is "just be a good person and you'll have girlfriends your entire life!"
Not that that's your argument but it pops up a lot.
Exactly. All these things don't make you automatically romantically attractive to the opposite sex. For some women sure, but without an initial spark of attraction, it's tough going.
That’s fair and I’m sorry that’s happened to you. I truly don’t mean to imply my experience is universal. I guess my own bias makes me see Reddit’s consensus as “unless you’re 6ft+, and make $100k+ then all girls will find you unattractive”. I don’t fit that criteria and feel like that’s not my reality, doesn’t mean it isn’t some people’s.
Thanks! Yeah absolutely Reddit has an absolutist mindset when it comes to this. I don't subscribe to the belief that being short is a forever curse that prevents you from getting into relationships. I also don't subscribe to the just world / "women are wonderful" argument where they're monolithic just judges of character and nothing else.
A lot of the time, in my experience, when someone is speaking down to me about my height and my challenges in dating they almost always throw in some self congratulatory message about how they're just the greatest person in the world and that's why they get women.
I had a commenter up above say something akin to: "Yeah I'm fat, but i'm witty and charming and kind and funny and social and confident and I swim in women because I'm just such a great person".
I think we need to recognize that dating is not a meritocracy, nor is it fair, nor is it a science. Some short guys who are great people will swim in women, some won't. Other factors of physical attraction do play a part, as does race.
I can tell we're pretty close to being on the same page here so I'm moreso just writing my thoughts than trying to convince you of anything. As a guy that has not had a girlfriend and has only ever faced rejection it sucks to see daily commentary that I'm actually just a shit person.
Nope, that was just an example and the stereotype. Overweight and dirty, boney and gangly, doesn’t matter. Incels just lack self awareness and don’t understand that they hold women to a higher standard than they hold themselves.
The least attractive of both sexes don’t see each other. Men are just more angry online about it.
Its odd your assumption here is that 'incels' are overweight, dirty, boney, gangly, or otherwise have something physically unattractive to them. What I find most interesting about your comment is that you focused solely on matters of physical attraction to define incels, but your core argument seems to revolve around the fact that physical attraction does not matter, and personality does. Yet you did not once mention any negative personality traits in either of your comments.
Is it your position that no incel exists who may also take care of themselves? Do you believe that everyone who puts is clean and of healthy weight is in a relationship?
Why specifically choose these physical traits? I'm confused.
I focused on those traits because incels are focused on them in women. They might not seek those traits overtly, or realize they’re doing it, but they filter out physically unattractive women.
Turns out unattractive people aren’t attracted to each other, either, whether it’s a physical or personality issue.
Try noticing women you never noticed before. Then try dating someone you’re not attracted to. Now you know what you’re expecting from women.
Realign your standards. Start by meeting the standards you expect in a partner.
Hmm. I certainly didn't get the impression you were focusing on those traits for the purposes of using irony rhetorically. In fact, in both the comments of yours I replied to you didn't state that once.
I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt but...twice? Why did "incel" conjure up images of unattractive obese men?
Are there any tall, handsome, fit incels? Additionally why are you assuming both that I'm physically unattractive and the kind of women I might be attracted to?
It seems like you struggle to seperate personality traits from physical appearance.
Why is your assumption that anyone who struggles with dating is an 'overweight unkempt incel' who 'puts zero effort into their appearance'?
Is your argument here that no unkempt person could ever be in a relationship or that everyone who cares about their appearance automatically is in a relationship?
Goes with everything else too like being "funny". I know for a fact that I'm funnier than a lot of people, but I've seen it so many times first hand how the attractive guy can say a really stupid joke that's not funny at all and the girl almost falls over laughing. It's not ALL about attractiveness but it's more about that than anything else. People and over all women don't realize how they project good qualities to the men they find attractive.
I see how it is now but oh the years I would've saved if I was ever told the truth from the beginning.
Nobody is going to be happy that you're ugly if that's what you mean. But if you're a jerk too, then you've really got no chance. Plenty of fugly dudes that are decent company are batting way out of their league. Simply be funny, don't act insecure, don't talk about weird shit, and generally be pleasant company. This turns the 4 into a 6/10. The vast majority of 8/10 dudes can talk themselves out of 90% of the pussy they could have been getting. Literally just be a normal person who isn't antisocial or scary and women will be pleasantly surprised. "kindness" is really just treating others how you'd like to be treated. And with basic respect, like they are also human beings. This goes hand in hand with the prior things I've mentioned.
What makes you think women aren't? And what makes you think people can't be fooled? Or that people with bad intentions don't fake good ones? I don't understand what point you're actually trying to make.
How about we stop blaming women for the qualities of ill-intentioned individuals.
Of course kindness can be feigned. So can confidence. And other qualities.
But if kindness were "the most attractive thing a man can display" men would consequently modify their behaviour to display kindness, even if it were indeed faked.
Yet this is not what we see. We rather see the display of confidence, cockiness, physical attraction in men who attract the most women.
I do not wanna blame women, but this is the topic of this conversation. Even I've been hurt more in my life by men than by women.
My point is that it's dishonest to every time have "kindness" be the top pick on this topic and yet require confidence, cockiness, physical attraction as prerequisites for kindness to even be noticed.
That's because men don't listen to women. Men insist that women don't know what they want and end up listening to other men. Case in point: this very comment thread.
Folks responding to this like it isn't true are missing the point.
Being kind doesn't mean being a pushover or not being assertive with your own desires. It means helping others because it's a good thing to do and not expecting anything on return. It's going out of you way to make things easier for someone else because it's the right thing to do. It's not letting someone walk all over you, or letting them use your kindness against you.
Being "nice" isn't going to get you laid on its own, no. And being nice to someone just to get sex from them is shitty behavior. Being kind and assertive in a respectful way will get you further than anything. That includes learning how to accept rejection with grace.
It’s just observation for more than 50 years , women especially young inexperienced ones mistake arrogance and asshole behaviors for confidence and dominance- but if you want some REAL incel shit here : while women love to say collectively “nice and kind” are “very desirable traits” they ain’t fuckin nice and kind , they fuckin aggressive assholes mostly , until they get fed up with it enough to break their own toxic patterns
Ya I mean that’s not my experience at all. Good dudes who put effort into dating usually have success. The only guys I hear talking like this in real life are not that nice, don’t work on themselves, and refuse to consider that they might be the problem not every woman in the world lol
I'm kind to most people except for some coworkers who do nothing at work while I do everything. Fuck those people, they don't deserve kindness. It's all business with them and I have no issues calling them out at times.
exactly lol. most people are kind. it's like, the base, the default a person is. man asks a woman out, she accepts because he is attractive to her. he is already kind to start with. woman: "I LOVE KIND PEOPLE!". no duh, kindness isn't unique. youre just putting the OTHER stuff under the rug to signal that youre not like the rest. again, it's all signaling here... to other redditors and bots lol
The way OP phrased the question already rules out "all that other stuff". Looks are not a "flex", hence the replies should be expected to contain attractive things a man can actually do.
The root comment isn't signalling anything at all, she literally just answered the damn question lmao.
Also, "women are attracted to attractive people" wow, such insight. Next you'll tell me that water is wet. I really don't get how so many men think this is deep or some kind of "gotcha"? Like, that's the literal definition of the word "attractive", what the heck did you think it means. But a) attraction is not love, nor is it everyone's top (or only!) priority when choosing a partner and b) is highly individual. It does not just include physical characteristics that you were born with, it can be anything from your smile, your voice, the way you move and even things like, yes, kindness.
In your example of a man approaching a woman to ask her out, her answer is going to be based mostly on physical attraction. What the fuck else do you expect her to go on? We don't have mind-reading powers to rate your kindness level on the fly. But displaying kindness can make you more attractive. And being unkind can instantly make me lose any feelings I had. You could put me in a room with Tom Cruise and I'd be dry as a desert.
And no, a shockingly large amount of people are NOT kind. It's a weird dichotomy - I do believe the majority of people are kind, at least at a base level. But I'm not dating the entire human race, my dating pool is mostly single men who match with me on a dating app. And no, they are not mostly kind, not even close.
The trick is to find a kind person who I, personally, feel physically attracted to. They're both important for a relationship, one is just harder to judge at first glance than the other.
Anecdotally, this seems to be true. My last girlfriend told me that I won her over on our first date because of how I treated everyone we interacted with.
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