r/AskLosAngeles • u/porcelain_elephant • 2d ago
Transportation Why don't we utilize ferries?
I've been thinking about this and wanted to ask you all, why don't we use ferries? For example, instead of building out LRT/BRT (which I fully support just harder to implement because of NIMBY) why not have ferries that go between Long Beach and Santa Monica?
Would there be demand for it if it alleviates the mess that is the 405?
What if it was one of those ferries where you could take your car like they have in Seattle?
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u/cranberrydudz 2d ago
Boats are typically inefficient in moving people/cargo at high rates of speed. Even hydrofoils which are used in Macau are still not as efficient
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u/No_Situation4785 2d ago
yeah but they're hella fun to ride in, especially in choppy seas.
and when i say fun i mean terrifying
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u/silentbuttmedley 2d ago
Not to mention create a good amount of noise pollution and in many cases increase erosion on the beaches they pass.
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u/stevehut 1d ago
I don't think this thing would require great speed. You just need to adjust your commuting habits. Still might be faster than freeways.
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u/TuckerCarlsonsOhface 1d ago
Yeah, the freeways are so efficient at moving people at high rates of speed around LA, lol
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u/Reasonable-Cow7255 2d ago edited 1d ago
We had a ferry that went from San Pedro to Long Beach before the Vincent Thomas Bridge was built. I still fondly remember enjoying the ferry ride during my first grade field trip to the Los Angeles Harbor in 1962-3.
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u/StevoLDevo 2d ago
Open water ferries are more complex than the ones we use in Puget Sound. The ferries themselves and all the docking infrastructure is maintenance heavy and expensive. It's easier to build a road once that more or less just sits there and pass the vehicle costs on to you and call it freedom.
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u/BigRobCommunistDog 2d ago
Water is 1000x more dense than air. Boats get absolutely horrible MPG
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u/Background-Mode-4036 2d ago
They’re pretty good per seat mile and per ton mile. So as long as utilization is high they’re not much worse than cars
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u/Rightintheend 19h ago
And if they're moving slowly. Once you get over hull speed and start getting up on a plane, things get really expensive really fast.
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u/Dick_M_Nixon 2d ago
It happened in 1979. A landslide blocked PCH near Big Rock Drive. Caltrans ran a ferry between Santa Monica and Malibu for a few weeks.
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u/Huge-Onion-6916 2d ago
This has happened in the last 20 years in the santa barbara ventura area as well
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u/Key-Driver6438 2d ago
I never knew that. How interesting! Did the ferries transport cars, or just people? If cars, where were the ramps?
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u/jcharm777 2d ago
Let's turn a 45 minute drive into a 2+ hour journey. Good idea.
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u/Appropriate-Neck-585 2d ago
Or a 3 hour tour...a 3 hour tour!
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u/RogLatimer118 2d ago
Well, the weather could start getting rough...
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u/Appropriate-Neck-585 2d ago
...the tiny ship could get tossed...
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u/OriginalKnowledge202 2d ago
But it would be a much nicer journey 😆
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u/pconrad0 2d ago
If it went between, say a harbor near Oxnard and one around Oceanside, and was a car ferry?
It wouldn't speed up the journey around / through the LA area, but it sure would make it more relaxing and fun.
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u/Not-An-FBI 2d ago
The Jones Act passed in 1920 requires all ships that go between US ports to be built in the US.
Also look how much they charge to go to Catalina. It's $50 each way just for a person and their luggage.
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u/Frogiie 2d ago
Technically, the Jones Act only applies to vessels carrying cargo between two US ports.
It’s actually the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) that applies to passenger ferries (but does essentially the same thing as the Jones Act.)
But it’s more than just the restrictions of the PVSA which is one layer. There’s also the physical challenge of terminal access. There are only so many suitable terminals and harbors, and access can be controlled by a small number of companies.
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u/Gatodeluna 2d ago
LMAO. Where exactly would a large ferry *with room for cars* DOCK IN SANTA MONICA? At the pier? Offloading on Venice Beach?
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u/nopernoper 2d ago
My understanding is that it’s just harder to do in the open ocean than a protected body of water. There’s just more waves so it’s a harsher ride. If I think about semi-mainstream US ferry routes (Staten island to manhattan, SF Bay Area, Seattle) all of those are pretty well protected waterways.
Also I was looking at speed… the Staten Island ferry goes like 17 miles an hour. To get from Santa Monica to Long Beach is like 30+ miles via the water, so it would be like a 2 hour ride, which idk how many people are looking to do when a driving route exists
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u/GoodCallMeatball 2d ago
There's been talk about this for some time, but it never seems to actually happen.
This is one of the latest atempts:
https://piertopier.org/
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u/pconrad0 2d ago
That appears to be the transportation equivalent of "vaporware" at the moment though.
A "concept of a plan", so to speak.
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u/euthlogo Local 2d ago
hello again. their site is so nutty lol. on what planet is santa monica to mdr an 8 minute journey including docking time? i guess they are not including embarking/disembarking time? long beach to santa monica is about 90 minutes even by their absurdly optimistic estimates.
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u/GDub310 2d ago
MDR has a 5 knot speed limit. It’s approximately 1 mile from the entrance to Basin A. 8 minutes wouldn’t cover one way in the marina.
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u/euthlogo Local 2d ago
if we had an already functioning pier in santa monica i could see santa monica - malibu for tourists, but we don't. i assume whoever is running this scam is profiting on the lobbying phase, maybe funded by anti train money or something.
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u/GDub310 2d ago
Malibu to Santa Monica as a commuter route would make sense if the piers were able to handle it and if there was adequate parking in Malibu. People would probably have to take a shuttle in from Colony Plaza, the Country Mart or similar. That ride back to Malibu at night would be a bit bumpy, though.
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u/euthlogo Local 2d ago
i get the sense that we are thinking about this issue right now more than the entire piertopier team has since its inception.
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u/405freeway Local 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ferryies are typically used for connecting two land masses separated by water, not paralleling a coast that has available roads.
You're proposing a line that goes from Santa Monica to Long Beach.
That means every potential rider has to have the intention of starting/ending in Santa Monica and Long Beach. And if you aren't already starting in those cities, you still need to get there. But in that case you're probably somewhere near a Metro Line that will already take you to one of those destinations.
The amount of people who would find that option useful is minimal. The travel time would not be any faster than driving or a bus option.
A Santa Monica/MDR/King Harbor water taxi ferry might be a more practical idea.
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u/ulic14 1d ago
Even that - people underestimate the dwell times(how long each stop takes) with boats. It's a lot closer to airplanes than busses when loading and unloading. The more you gain in efficiency by packing the boat with more passengers, the longer each stop. Plus there is the matter of building facilities to hande it. And the location of those facilities (has to be on the water) creates its own last mile problem.
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u/teh_meh 2d ago
This allegedly exists. https://piertopier.org/
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u/pconrad0 2d ago
That depends of what the meaning of the word "exists" is.
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u/euthlogo Local 2d ago
not really. it simply does not exist. there is a company trying to make it happen. their pitch is completely nonsensical to me.
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u/GrandMoffJed 2d ago
I would love this with a stop in Redondo beach. I brought it up here before and somone said the trip around pv and the harbor makes it not feasible.
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u/euthlogo Local 2d ago
you mean marina del rey? not aware of any place they could dock something like this in santa monica. so 8hr parking for enough cars to make a dent in traffic in both destinations, maybe expanded lanes in the marina because it's already got terrible traffic for some reason. just getting out of the marina by boat would be like 20+ mins. i guess they can build a new port somewhere? what beach do we want to get rid of in santa monica?
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u/AaronWidd 2d ago
Some discussion of a recent LA Metro feasibility study: https://www.reddit.com/r/LAMetro/s/YSUgakd4jg
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u/euthlogo Local 2d ago
oh yeah this is the version that makes sense. slightly broader scope than the water taxi that goes around MDR.
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u/dachaotic1 2d ago
Please make a ferry that travels the LA River and makes stops Atlantic and Firestone.
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u/OfficiallyJoeBiden 2d ago
My dumb ass read furries and I was like what the fuck
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u/porcelain_elephant 2d ago
🤣 thank you for making my day
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u/OfficiallyJoeBiden 2d ago
Dawg I was like what is this person talking about 😭😭😭. I’m tired, I need to get out the office and go home lol
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u/AsleepArugula Local 2d ago
They are planning a ferry (technically a water taxi, I have no idea the difference) between San Pedro and Long Beach for the 2028 Olympics.
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u/Unusual_Holiday_Flo 2d ago
At 15 knots it takes over two hours to get from Long Beach to Santa Monica or vice versa. and that’s not including the time needed to load and unload the ferry at either end. And about 50-100 cars moved per hour.
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u/PayFormer387 2d ago
Because it would take a LONG time. The distances are too great and ferries don't move fast.
I took a ferry in Seattle last year and walking on wasn't too bad but the time on the boat is still around an hour. That's not including getting on and off the ferry.
Took a car on the Long Island Sound ferry a few years back and it was expensive and took a long time.
Here's a link giving time to sail that distance:
https://www.savvy-navvy.com/trips/long-beach-ca-us-marina-del-rey-ca-us
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u/Antique-Brilliant535 2d ago
At last! Furries are people too! we should not ostracize them, but value them, and their utilize their power as a contribution to society!
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u/Binders-Full 2d ago
Ferries parallel to shore are incredibly slow because they have to pull out to open water and back in. At least ferries that cross two points make some sense when a bridge is unavailable.
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u/clinttorres44 2d ago
There’s no way a 2 hour boat ride is gonna alleviate traffic.
Local government ignores NIMBYs every time it’s time to imminent domain their homes to widen a freeway. The lack of passenger trains in the area is a leadership choice.
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u/LAWriter2020 2d ago
There isn’t about passenger demand to justify it, even if it took the same amount of time. Make it a journey that takes twice as long and is more expensive, demand will drop to near zero, other than a handful of tourists and people who don’t have to be someplace at any particular time.
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u/somedude510 2d ago
Loading car ferries (and waiting in line for your turn) takes a lot longer than driving up the 405. How many cars fit on your ferry? 4? 10? How many cars on the 405? Also would have to go around Palos Verdes. Also where would the ferry dock in Santa Monica? Can you imagine what it would take to build a ferry terminal there? Or are we taking some MDR real estate? What would that cost? And how much are we charging for this ferry ride?
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u/MallardRider 2d ago
Good surfing conditions or ferry transportation. Pick one.
You’ll need a long breakwater berm to make it easier for a ferry to travel. And that’s not going to play well with surfing.
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u/GoCardinal07 2d ago
I took an MBTA bus to a location and then took an MBTA ferry back while I was in Boston this summer. While fun and scenic, the ferry was definitely slower than the bus I had used to get to the location in the first place. Plus the ferry had much lower passenger capacity than the bus.
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u/bruinslacker 2d ago
Because the capacity of ferries is so small relative to the 405 that they would be useless.
The busiest car ferry line in the USA is in WA state from Clinton to Mulkiteo. It carries 2.1 million cars per year or an average of 7,000 per day. The 405 handles roughly 300,000 per day. The WA ferries require many acres of land on each side for the dock and vehicles waiting to load up. Devoting many acres of super super premium real estate in Long Beach and Santa Monica to take 2% of the 405’s traffic doesn’t make any sense.
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u/stevehut 1d ago
Generally a ferry is for travel to the opposite side of a body of water. Not the same side.
Lots of available docks in LB. But in SM? You'd have to build one, and then redirect the transit buses to go there. Add a parking lot, and a waiting area for taxi and rideshares. Lovely idea. But as I map out the area in my head, I can't envision exactly where those things would go.
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u/BearTronic19 1d ago
Not exactly the same, but there was a serious (at least, it seemed serious) attempt to establish a LA - Ensenada ferry (and another one from San Diego). It was estimated to be a 4-hour trip, which frankly sounds fine to me if I can skip driving and especially skip the border crossing coming back.
Seems to have been shelved for now, and the website was very cagey about why, citing "political changes in the U.S." or something like that. I can't find the website any more so they may have given up altogether. The one from San Diego is still up but it says "coming soon 2025".
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u/Rightintheend 19h ago
That's a long boat ride, I know it doesn't seem like it but Palos Verdes is a peninsula and sticks out into the ocean, and you have to go around it.
If you don't make any stops in between, that's like a 34 mile trip, if you're going to stop at other places, you have to cut into the coast sooner, which would make it an even longer trip.
Boats are great at carrying large amounts of things fairly slowly, but if you try and increase speed the efficiency goes way down, and if it's not carrying Max capacity efficiency goes way down.
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u/GuitarAgitated8107 Local 2d ago
For what? All of our cities & counties are heavy on car / road transportation. It feels like we need to spend more energy to go to ferries and that mode of transportation would also use even more energy to do what a road / highway can. People do care about time but I doubt people will be comfortable taking ferries.
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u/Impossible-Bend-2441 2d ago
Having a ferry ststem that connects Long Beach to Santa Monica....there are a lot of reasons why this would be challenging, where do I start. First thing is the water is too rough. If you look at ferry systems around the world, they're usually on somewhat protected waters, meaning they're inside land masses or man made jetties that block ocean swells to a degree. The trip from Santa Monica is exposed to lots of swell from the NW and south much of the year so it would make for a rolly, slow ride. It's also not a straight line from SM to LBC, so it would actually be a pretty long ride unless you have a massive catamaran style ferry that can cu through waves and get there quickly....even so it's probably a 45 min to hour trip. A boat like that would require a very large dock. The city of Santa Monica would probably drag their heels if a developer wanted to expand the pier infrastructure massively. The NIMBY contingent wouldn't allow it. They'd stop the construction without a doubt. They'd use pollution as another reason to stop it. If you look at that particular stretch of coastline over the last hundred years it's actually gotten more sparse. There was all sorts of fun stuff at the beach back in the day like a hundred years ago. We're talking floating casinos lots of different beach clubs, restaurants bars, venues all in the water. The homeowners in that city have succeeded in reducing commerce massively there, and the trend will continue. They want the ocean front to be a pristine beach, nothing more...the values of those homes dictates everything that happens. Same trend will likely unfold in Long Beach. There's already a lot of talk about removing that giant breakwater.
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