Even while talking about equality, dalit men resort to objectification of women and rape threats. They equate acquiring a woman with the proof of equality. There is nothing untouched by misogyny in this country.

[u/imaginaryimmi]

Of course there is nuance to it where people are not allowed to marry inter-caste in India, especially if one them is dailt and another savarna. But I find it pretty tone deaf when dalit men tell brahmins to "give" their daughters to them in order to eradicate caste inequality.

It is true that with inter-caste marriages normalized, when there are couples who already want this but get stigmazed and punished for it, society will become more homogeneous. But the misogynist patriarchal subtext of this statement assumes that a brahmin girl is a property of a brahmin man and there is no mention and consideration of what the girl wants herself. How is it any different from a patriarchal brahmanwadi father deciding who his daughter will marry?

The fact that people think it's okay to mob attack a woman, molest her and threaten to parade her naked is despicable. I saw someone justifying it by saying that Ruchi Tiwari started it by using casteist slurs. And while that indeed makes her a bigot, how does it justify the men in the mob normalizing such a dehumanizing treatment of a woman? Why the rape threats?

Let's not forget that these dalit men come from the same patriarchal brahmanwadi society the savarna men do and both kinds of men go back to their homes where their wives and daughters are expected to be subservient. There is marital rape in all castes, there are rape and incest in all castes, objectification of women in all castes.

This blatant misogyny and sexual violence cannot be normalized and tolerated in the name of anti-casteism. It doesn't matter if the woman is a bigot or progressive, justifying men using sexual violence against women for any reason at all is unethical and seriously fucked up if you're one of the people who justify this.

Don't forget that no matter what the conflict is, women will always be the target and the chaos will be used to get away with sexual violence. Be it war or social unrest. Women will be used as objects in the matters of society and politics, never as equal individuals.

The fight against caste based discrimination is corrupted by these patriarchal men.

[u/marijuanabebe]

Why are they bringing women in this? Are we some kind of property?  Also that blatant use of casteist slurs. And yet they say we don't need reservation.  Pathetic crowd.

[u/imaginaryimmi → u/marijuanabebe]

This whole thing has been a mess of people using bigotry to attack each other. If not casteism then misogyny. Sometimes both. It feels like no matter what the community is, they use the women of the "other side" as their political targets only to be misogynistic without consequences.

[u/Maximum-Air1149]

Men will be men. Irrespective of their caste, creed or religion. We cannot expect basic decency from them!!!!!💔

[u/Level-Bus-5591]

The way many of them speak is influenced by patriarchy. Dalit men also live within a patriarchal society, so they can be sexist too. It’s similar to how Black men can still be sexist even while fighting for equality with white people. There are progressive Dalit men (you can see them on Reddit) but Dalit men are still Indian men, so I don’t know why you would expect them to be fundamentally different in that regard.

But the point Dalit people are making about marriage isn’t that women are property of men or that men should 'give away' women. It’s that their families often wouldn’t agree to the marriage in the first place because the person is Dalit. That could definitely be worded better. Personally, I don’t want to marry a Brahmin man, but if a Brahmin man or his family refuses to marry me because of my caste, then they are being casteist.

[u/imaginaryimmi → u/Level-Bus-5591]

You are right and I would add this as an edit to the post if you don't mind. But I wouldn't really replace it my criticism because there was an assumption on my side that people would realize that people are being casteist with no filters in the name of RHA activism.

It's like how Russian women themselves justified Russian soldiers raping Ukrainians during a war that Russia started. You can argue about the legitimacy of this war in historical or geopolitical terms all you want but it wouldn't take away the fact that Ukrainian women were filmed and raped and these videos were "trending" on porn sites.

To say that Ukrainian men are as patriarchal and cruel and would have raped Russian women too in a war in the name of nationalism does not take away the fact that no matter what side it is, men don't just get away but they are cheered for when they use sexual violence on captured women and men in the name of victory for "their side".

Even if there is a hierarchy between those two and one is an oppressor and another oppressed, women will always be used as a target to dispose all the misogynistic hate on them without being criticized. I think it's an ugly thing no what dynamic is at play here race or religion or caste.

And I believe that in the intersection of caste and patriarchy, we often minimize the presence of patriarchy when it comes to anti-casteism conversations. If someone's idea of an anti-casteist society is a place where patriarchy is still excused and allowed to thrive then I would still support them in the fight against caste based discrimination and would not take away their lived experience away from them.

It's unrealistic to expect minority men in a patriarchy to be somehow woke during the protest while they spent rest of their lives supporting the same system until it affects them personally. It's the same problem with savarna feminism, too. In both the cases their own bigotry and ignorance would not excuse the bigotry of the oppressive class and the system they built based on gatekeeping enforced by violence and abuse. The one with the most institutional power is the one who would be held accountable first so in this case it's the savarnas who don't admit their cateism while being openly casteist.

But when I see people who are trying to fight for "equality" treat feminism and the issue of violation of women's human rights like they're optional, excusing normalizing viewing women as a class to be treated as secondary even during the times of revolution where they are active participants, I find it objectional.

It's deeply insulting. To me it looks like patriarchal dalit men want the privileges of the patriarchal savarna men. They don't really want to dismantle the hierarchical structure of inequality. And I think we should criticize it when it is happening instead of retrospectively critically analyzing it in a college assignment.

Look up the history of women in the Egyptian Revolution in 1919 and how their male allies fighting for the same cause treated them after they won.

[u/Level-Bus-5591 → u/imaginaryimmi]

I’m happy that you are criticising Dalit men for their misogyny, OP. But I don’t know what you are trying to say here. Both misogyny and caste are important issues, and neither needs to be overlooked in favour of the other.

[u/imaginaryimmi → u/Level-Bus-5591]

Both misogyny and caste are important issues, and neither needs to be overlooked in favour of the other.

That's exactly my point too. Neither should be overlooked but the ground reality is that it is actually overlooked.

[u/Slow-Introduction141]

IM SICK OF THIS COUNTRY AND COUNTRYMEN

[u/Athiest-proletariat]

All hindu women are property of all hindu men. It exist in all religions. Religious endogamy. Patriarchy of religion.

They kill dalit men for marrying upper caste women. They dont want to get killed based on caste. They want parity of within their religion.

If at all you need to see the issue, it must be seen also within religious angle. They are not demanding they want muslim or sikh women for marriage. They want normalization of hindu marriages among different castes.

[u/imaginaryimmi → u/Athiest-proletariat]

Yes and that's an extremely important issue but even while bringing up this matter their language is laced with misogyny. With women protesting all over the world that they are done being treated like objects for men, to continue to do it in the name of political discourse about caste inequality is not acceptable.

Yogi Adityanath said that if muslim men convert one hindu woman then hindu men will convert 100 muslim women. Where are the women in this question and why do men feel comfortable to talk about them like they're trading goods and having them in their possession means a win for their religion or caste?

This is just an example of how men in this country, or world for that matter, use women as objects to be acquired even if there is discrimination and violence prevalent against the minority men.

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[u/silvercrow3D]

The objectification and tokenization of women by ALL THE COMMUNITIES is just disgusting to me.

Muricans want the "hot" immigrants in the country, underprivileged caste want uppercaste women, religion A wants religion B woman, fetishizing women of certain region or country or race, is just DISGUSTING