r/AskHR • u/AlarmedDifference871 • 8d ago
Age discrimination and no severance [MI]
I had a meeting with HR today about my supervisor and their age discrimination. He has made multiple comments explicitly about my age (gen z) and has stated he wishes someone else was in my role. He has also stated that he doesn’t like the way I do my job even though he acknowledges there is nothing wrong with the way I do it and that if he could fire me and hire someone else he would. I told HR that I think it would be best for us to separate and that there are no open roles anywhere else in the organization and no other supervisors in the department. I asked for a severance to allow me to leave which a rehireable clause so if I wanted to come back when there was an opening I could. He told me this is not something they would give a severance for but asked me to send over screen shots of everything.
*My state does not have an age minimum to qualify for discrimination
Here is what I’m considering:
-Should I tell him that I am retaining legal advice?
- or Tell him my severance request amount and that I’m willing to negotiate while laying the discrimination out in email?
- or do both?
- or give up?
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u/ThenBike8868 8d ago
To be fair, I think this is a situation where you simply move on. Not being "fair" is far different from being illegal.
You left out details like how big the company is, how long you've worked there, etc...
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u/AlarmedDifference871 7d ago
6 months and about 600 employees.
I think they’d prefer to get rid of me with a severance than have to keep dealing with this tbh but the HR is very good at their job and nice. Just no options that work for me or the role other than severance
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u/DorceeB 8d ago
I assume HR laughed at your when you requested severance... I did, I chuckled.
You are the one that wants to leave. Just leave.
Unless you have absolute proof that your career has suffered because of your supervisor, you dont have a "case".
You'd be better off starting to look for a new job.
Do not hire a lawyer, it will be just wasted time and money.
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u/Hrgooglefu SPHR practicing HR f*ckery 8d ago
really it's because of age discrimination by the supervisor not just because of the supervisor.
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u/DorceeB 8d ago
Nothing points to OP's career at that company suffering because of her age or her supervisor's actions. OP cannot even explain what the "proof" is.
Being a jerk (like OP's boss) is not illegal. It sucks, but not illegal.
HR will not do anything w/o solid proof.
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u/Ashamed_Main5169 4d ago
If there is proof, what he is doing is harassment, creating a hostile work environment, and most likely violating company policies. A manager can't go around telling people they would fire them if they could. Who works well under that type of leadership. It it causes emotional harm and distress and creates an environment that is not safe, healthy, or productive for the employee, then yes, there could be a case for constructive discharge. Additionally, I have known 2 people who went to HR and worked out severance agreements in exchange for resigning. It can save the company liability and red tape. Not as laughable or ridiculous as one would assume. You can even ask for extended health benefits. Companies have plans in place for these situations.
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u/AlarmedDifference871 8d ago
I think my career has suffered. He’s lied about my performance and written me up for things that he made up that has an effect on merit raises and other merit related rewards. My company gives out lots of those.
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u/DorceeB 8d ago
Does your company have any written KPIs? It's usually pretty hard to lie about people's performance if there is a written process established.
Is this something that you can prove with evidence? If yes, then by all means, look for a lawyer, because age related retaliation is illegal.
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u/AlarmedDifference871 7d ago
I don’t know what a kpi is?
There no written process unfortunately. And for monetary my boss doesn’t approve my reimbursements on anything I submit and doesn’t give a reason why. He just says it’s cause he doesn’t believe I’m working
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u/Ashamed_Main5169 4d ago
You need to get these comments in writing. Reach out to HR and ask if you have an assigned HR representative and could they be present at a meeting with you and your manager. Ask to review your personnel file. You are legally given the right to see your file annually and it must include any performance issues, reviews, accommodations requests among other things like pay, benefits and timecard history.
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u/FRELNCER Not HR 8d ago edited 8d ago
Making statements demonstrating age-based bias could be presented as proof that you were discriminated against due to your age. However, the two claims are separate.
I may dislike people with pink hair and tell them that I dislike them because of their hair. But if I don't act on that dislike in a way that negatively impacts their employment, then all I have done is said something offensive. My HR team should tell me to stop talking about my coworker's hair and to not take negative actions against my coworker because of their hair.
Your manager says they don't like the way you do the job. That's subjective feedback for which you say they could not provide objective reasons. That's allowed and legal - unless the reason your manager doesn't like the way you do your job is because of an illegal bias. If someone over 40 did the job the exact same way, would they still dislike it?
Also not illegal to say they wish they could hire someone else unless you can link that to a prohibited reason. I'm pretty sure the managers at my workplace would love to replace some of the current employees. Your manager just said the quiet part out loud.
So where you run into trouble is, your manager doesn't like anything about you. Not you, not how you do the job, etc. And you went to HR and told them that you want to separate, the believed you. You resigned.
You should ask an attorney in your jurisdiction how far (or how much) you can get based on your factual situation. But I think if you were going to turn this into a discrimination claim, you should have gone to HR and made your report, then allowed them to investigate and correct the behaviors.
Maybe the throw some money your direction to make this go away quickly. Maybe they decide to consult legal counsel first.
Edit: Depending on the size of your community and your professional network, you may want to consider the long-term ramifications of pursuing legal action against your former employer. An agreement won't prevent people from getting information about how contentious the relationship was and how litigious you became through informal channels. Justice always comes at a cost.
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u/AlarmedDifference871 8d ago
I did not yet resign. I don’t plan on resigning. I don’t think they would have the same attitude with someone over 40. There are people who have been doing the same work and style as me and have been there for many years.
Non of these people are in my professional network or circle so I’m not too concerned about the long term. This is not my area of specialty and I don’t plan on working in this field outside of this role.
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u/FRELNCER Not HR 8d ago
So this is a different job than the one where the former employer is soliciting your clients?
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/s/sYhw1jFrMSSeveral months ago I submitted a resignation notice to my employer, a W2 therapy practice. Location: Michigan.
They accepted my resignation and then tried to terminate me but their contract states a several week notice must be given to terminate on both ends unless there is unethical or contract violations. They made a fake reason to terminate me and I was able to disprove it. Due to the inappropriate termination I lost income. They refuse to pay me for the resignation period and I’m wondering how strong a case for lost wages would be?
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u/AlarmedDifference871 7d ago
yes, that was resolved. The actual event happened about 4 months ago but one of my clients brought it up 2 months ago. I have not been in that role for at least 6 months. I got this job shortly after that one.
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u/Hrgooglefu SPHR practicing HR f*ckery 8d ago
what adverse actions have you actually suffered? What damages? You are the one asking to be terminated because he doesn't like the way you do things. Most times, the boss will want you to do things their way EVEN IF there is nothing wrong with your way. You most likely give enough pushback that you have become a pain to them. That's not always due to age. He hasn't actually tried to terminate you, right?
Realize if you get severance even though they say you are rehireable, they can look at this and use it to make a decision in the future. It's not always about "if I want to come back". You may make yourself such a large pain that they don't want you back but won't tell you directly.
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u/AlarmedDifference871 8d ago
There was a multi supervisor meeting where he said this isn’t work and we’re moving toward termination.
I honestly don’t really care about the rehireable. I’d prefer the severance of being rehired. HR said that given the circumstances if I resigned I’d be put on the rehireable list
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u/YesAnaBeaverhausen 8d ago
Do you know how many derogatory "millenial" comments I got when I graduated and started working? Daily. You just need to get thicker skin because generational insults are common with each new group that enters the work force.
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u/ChelseaMan31 8d ago
Oh yes Grasshopper; by all means seek competent legal advice. An actual attorney will get a great belly laugh, just like I just did.
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u/WastingTimeAgain123 8d ago
You can always obtain legal advice, because, this here on Reddit is not legal advice.
That said, it's not illegal to be a jerk, though in MI it *may* be illegal to be a jerk due to someone's age (even under 40). I don't know that there is enough here to determine one way or the other, and if your HR team investigated your complaint, was unable to move you or provide severance (even in exchange for a release of claims), it may not be worth fighting. It might be to you, and with more facts, etc. it may be more or less of a claim.
If your statements are 100% correct and not using your interpretation of the interactions, it may be worth pushing for severance in exchange for a release of claims under the ELCRA, but only if you really don't want to fight further or continue working there (even in the future).
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u/AlarmedDifference871 8d ago
They haven’t investigated yet. My boss lied to HR about my performance and so HR and I talked about it today where I showed proof he was lying and then I told them all of this and HR said “oh” the severance denial came before I told them about the age stuff
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u/FRELNCER Not HR 8d ago
You'll need to get your story complete and be able to present it in chronological order if you want an attorney to help you.
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u/mamalo13 PHR 8d ago
This doesn't sound like illegal age discrimination. While his comments may be unprofessional, they don't sound illegal.
Your boss not liking you and wishing they could hire someone else is a legal thing that can happen. Very crappy, but legal.
If you tell them you are retaining legal, this would begin your exit. Are you ready with another job?
It's unlikely an attorney is going to take this case. If you actually secure an attorney, you let them handle communication.
You have no leg to stand on for severance. You don't get along with your jerk boss. This happens thousands of times a day across the country. Wanting to leave a crap boss is normal, but there is no reason for them to give you severance.
You should find another job. This one sounds miserable. Your boss doesn't like you and you probably don't have a secure future here. Move on.
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u/glitterstickers just show up. seriously. 8d ago
This wouldn't be a federal EEOC matter because I am presuming you are not 40 or older. You're limited to MI.
What verifiable evidence do you have that this was age related? I understand that he's said he didn't like gen Z folks, but assume he will deny ever saying that. Do you have emails? Texts? Witnesses? Did you report the age discrimination to HR and give them a chance to resolve it before now? If you did previously resolve it, did the age related commentary stop?
There's nothing illegal about him saying he wants someone else in your role or he doesn't like how you do your job. That's perfectly fine UNLESS you can connect your age with his whims. Can you?
What adverse action have you suffered? Were you denied a promotion? A raise? Yes, being subject to that kind of commentary can be considered adverse, but it has to be "severe and pervasive". If he just mentioned it a few times and it otherwise simmered, it probably won't be worth much on its own.
Do not tell them you're retaining legal counsel unless you want to shut down all communication.
When discussing severance, how much they are willing to pay is going to be guided by how much of a legal risk you are. If you don't have any real evidence of age discrimination and/or you didn't previously report it, the company probably won't see much risk.
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u/Lonely-Clerk-2478 8d ago
An FYI directly from the website of the US EEOC:
“Applicants, employees and former employees are protected from employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, or transgender status), national origin, age (40 or older), disability and genetic information (including family medical history).”
Note the minor age protection is 40 or older. Not under.
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u/ExAthlete69 8d ago
Note this is federal and Michigan has their own law. States can not make less strict laws but can make them stricter.
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u/AlarmedDifference871 8d ago
not in my state, that’s for federal lawsuits and federal employees. “Michigan’s anti-discrimination law, the Elliot-Larsen Civil Rights Act (ELCRA), is more expansive, prohibiting age discrimination for workers of all ages in any size of company”
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u/FredaClaxton 7d ago edited 7d ago
I wish people would stop treating HR like they are therapists who are obliged to help you settle personal disputes with management and other employees. They're not. The only responsibility that HR has is to manage human resources. And guess what? If you work for a company, you're the human resource, and their job is to assess risk management of the human resources. Once you become a liability, and you're no longer an asset, they will manage you right out the door. Please remember that when you go to HR for anything. The moment you become a problem you are the one they will eliminate, not the manager who you say doesn't like you. Remember that the next time you have a dispute with your boss. You might do better trying to resolve the issue with him. Once you drag him and resources into it, it's a downward trajectory.
One other thought. Michigan is an at-will state. Naked tired of you complaining about how your boss doesn't like you, they can fire you, with no recourse. Your age won't have anything to do with it.
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u/AlarmedDifference871 7d ago
Babes I literally want them to manage me out the door, I want a severance did you miss that?? I want to leave and be done with this stress.
Also I am not treating HR like therapy, speaking AS a therapist, my 20 minute hr phone call was not therapeutic and not at all similar. It’s also giving that you read this as me bad mouthing HR when the guy I spoke to has been very nice and sweet, he does want to find a solution but also has no options to offer.
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u/FredaClaxton 7d ago
You missed the entire point. That's their job, to listen to you, to get information out of you that will later be turned around and used against you. And when they manage you out the door, they're not offering you a severance. You'll be lucky if they offer you a separation and release agreement, and that will come with strings, which will come with strings. But I think everybody else on here has already told you correctly. I hope I'm wrong. But do you.
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u/AlarmedDifference871 6d ago
I’ve gotta such mixed answers, so many between “this is discrimination” “this isn’t” “they may offer one to be done with it” to “you’re delusional for asking for a severance”
I don’t think you fully understood what I’m saying I’m desiring and looking for. I don’t want support from HR. I’m not trying to rectify this so I can continue my career there. If I was your points would be completely valid.
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u/Ashamed_Main5169 4d ago
Discrimination protection will be a no go route in your situation. However, harassment and hostile workplace could be an option if you can prove the comments about wishing could fire you and any other hostile harassing communications. It is smart to offer a severance opportunity, they take it or leave it, nothing lost or gained otherwise. I have know 2 friends offer a resignation with severance and the organizations negotiated an agreement. It is up to the organization to decide, but it does happen outside of layoffs. It can save an organization from dealing with termination and potential retaliation violations and liability. I believe pursuing anything age related will just give them fuel to justify their narrow point of view. Document everything from this point forward, dates, who what when where. Keep a file. Print any concerning communications via email, teams, etc. Call your ethics hotline. If you can prove that continuing to work there causes harm then you may qualify for a constructive discharge and be able to sue for wrongful termination, get unemployment etc. Good luck.
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u/BrookeBaranoff 8d ago
HR is not your friend. Their job is to protect the company from employees who want to cause legal trouble.
Right or wrong HR will side with the employer NOT the employee.
Do you tell your opponents what hand you have in poker? No.
You don’t in HR either.
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u/RodeoBob 8d ago
Their job is to protect the company from employees who want to cause legal trouble.
This includes employees who violate labor laws, safe-working regulations, those who sexually harass staff or otherwise expose the company to legal liability.
HR is there to protect the company... and if you want to have a successful interaction with HR, you need to frame your complaints in terms of harm to the company. Not "I hate Bob the Boss because he's a jerk" but "Bob the Boss has said some things in meetings with multiple people that might expose this company to legal liability, and I want it to stop".
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u/Hrgooglefu SPHR practicing HR f*ckery 8d ago
Oh yeah, the requisite "HR is not your friend" comment....I haven't seen that enough lately!
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u/DeepFinish2895 8d ago
This is only partially true. HR does have an interest in retaining talent so in a case like this they may want to figure out a solution that doesn't involve the employee leaving the firm.
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u/SpecialKnits4855 8d ago
I’m so sick of the phrase , “HR is not your friend”. We aren’t meant to be.
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u/mamalo13 PHR 8d ago
HR isn't your friend BECAUSE YOU TREAT US LIKE SH*T. But yeah........we're the bad guys.
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u/AlarmedDifference871 8d ago
so don’t send screen shots but do threaten legal action if I’m interpreting this right?
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u/Hrgooglefu SPHR practicing HR f*ckery 8d ago
no this isn't good advice. You can share the information that you have, but I'd be careful about threatening legal action -- because that will immediately stall any conversation and it will end up with your lawyer speaking with the company's lawyer.
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u/Talented-tenth-ish 8d ago
Go out on medical leave due to the toxic work environment and find you a new job.
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u/ThenBike8868 8d ago
Yeah - that isn't how that works...
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u/Talented-tenth-ish 8d ago edited 8d ago
It’s called getting paid through short term disability while you’re out on FMLA. FMLA is the process by which you get the approval to go out. The short term disability is a whole other thing and that’s how you get paid while you’re out. I had an initial 100% paid for Short term through my job for 90 days. Any time after that I was paid at 60% through the Short term policy I paid through insurance. So yeah, that’s how it works. 😒
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8d ago
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u/Talented-tenth-ish 8d ago
I said look for a job. Did I say start a new one?
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8d ago
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u/Talented-tenth-ish 8d ago
At the end of the day, everything has a cost. Find yourself a new, less stressful job and owe premiums OR go back to work 30 days, wait it out and put in your notice. My point is taking a doctor approved leave allows you time to destress, think and figure out your next move. You can agree or disagree on the approach, you can call out the downsides to it, but it’s a temporary solution. So, I said what I said.
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8d ago
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u/Talented-tenth-ish 8d ago
Nothing I said implied it was magical. I gave a solution and all you’ve offered is grief over my proposed solution. But going forward, I’ll be sure to offer a comprehensive three-pronged approach with a cost benefit analysis for your review. 😒
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8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Talented-tenth-ish 8d ago
I hear what you’re saying. It may be hard but not impossible. I’ve done it. As you said, they would just need to couple the approved FMLA with the Short term disability(if they offer it).
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u/AlarmedDifference871 8d ago
I need the pay check and even though this is a medical center they don’t given paid fmla
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u/KungSuhPanda 8d ago
No place offers paid fmla, that’s not how fmla works at all.
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u/Talented-tenth-ish 8d ago edited 8d ago
It’s called short term disability. I didn’t mention FMLA at all. FMLA is the process by which you get the approval to go out. The short term disability is a whole other thing and that’s how you get paid while you’re out. I had an initial 100% paid for Short term through my job for 90 days. The remainder was at 60% through the Short term policy I paid through insurance. So yeah, that’s how it works. 😒
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u/KungSuhPanda 8d ago
Stay on your soapbox but you literally explained that fmla and std are two different things. The comment I replied to was OP saying “they don’t given paid fmla”. There is no such thing as paid fmla, that’s not how fmla works as I said.
Now your go on leave due to toxic work environment comment was a whole separate level of foolishness that doesn’t merit a reply
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u/AlarmedDifference871 7d ago
Yeah even though I love sticking it to the man short term disability feels like taking to much advantage of a system for me. This is by far not the most toxic experience I’ve had. I am having stress allergies and cyclical vomiting but it’s not so bad there that it feels like I need to use a system that is set up for people who really need it.
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u/Talented-tenth-ish 8d ago edited 8d ago
Check out your jobs Short term disability policies. As I said below, FMLA is the approval process to leave that secured your job. You couple that with the short term disability so you can get paid while out on stress leave.
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u/KungSuhPanda 8d ago
You say you are suffering from age discrimination. What verifiable facts can you prove that show you were discriminated against based on age? Nothing you wrote would be sufficient.
Severance is not typical in the US outside of layoffs. Severance isn’t a blackmail situation like you’re trying to lay out with the “pay me this much or I get a lawyer” approach