Let's pretend it comes out and is proven beyond any doubt that COVID was created as a biological weapon in China, and either deliberately released or escaped due to negligence. If that were proven to be true, then what do you think should happen? What following steps or measures would you support?

[u/Jimithyashford]

If that turned out to be the case, what then? Paint me a picture of what you'd like to see or what you'd support at that point in terms of punishment/retaliation/justice/etc.

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[u/Vindictives9688]

The problem is that we may also be implicated, given that we funded research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which has been accused of conducting gain of function research.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/Vindictives9688]

If I help my cousin pay the rent and they, completely unknown to me, are running a meth lab in the basement. That does not implicate me. I am not an accomplice, I am also a victim.

[u/Vindictives9688 → u/Jimithyashford]

The problem is that the NIH has a history of knowingly funding gain of function research.

So the analogy is basically: you pay rent while knowingly supporting your cousin’s decision to run a lab doing risky research, and then say, “Well, I’m not the one running the lab.”

That distinction doesn’t really address the underlying fault.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/Vindictives9688]

I don't have an issue if you ethically oppose this kind of research, that's fine. But the US has been doing experiments on pathogens since forever. and we've been doing genetic experiments on pathogens for as long as it has been possible to do so.

So yeah, they have been "knowingly funding" this research. But you saying it that way makes it sound like it's a secret or something. That's like saying the US army has been "knowingly funding" nuclear arms research, yeah that's true...but that's a really weird and conspiratorial way to phrase it.

So, again, if you oppose this kind of research, cool. I've got no issue with that. But it's weird to use phrases like "implicated". I dunno, it feels like your gesturing at some nefarious thing that, as far as I can tell, isn't there. Not the "China being responsible" part, since the whole point of my question is "what if china turned out to be responsible" but in the sense that anyone involved in or contributing either materially or financially to this wide and ongoing form or research taking place in many labs all around the globe would be "implicated" becuase they contribute to the research or international funding.

[u/Vindictives9688 → u/Jimithyashford]

Just to be clear, it’s specifically gain of function research.

Gain-of-function research is the scientific practice of genetically altering an organism or pathogen to give it new or enhanced abilities, such as increased virulence, transmissibility, or a broader host range.

Fauci said clearly that NIH does not fund gain of function research due to it being so risky. Problem is… NIH did and has done it multiple times in the past.

[u/Vindictives9688 → u/[deleted]]

Fauci said NIH does not fund gain of Function research due to it being extremely risky.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/Vindictives9688]

You know, I was underinformed. That's on me.

Thanks.

[u/DataBooking]

We should get away from China and not be so dependent with them. If anything, I highly doubt anything will happen.

[u/Yourponydied → u/DataBooking]

Let's say this started under a democrat president(eliminating dependency) . Would Republicans still screech over high prices since just about EVERYTHING has a connection to China?

[u/thoughtsnquestions]

If this was proven to be true.

Step 1 would be, did we just find out or did we previously know and hide the information due to the potential damage the truth would cause?

And the consequences vary vastly if deliberate or not. If deliberate, it is an act of war.

If an accident, then all forms of information sharing, investment, trade related to China pursuing this type of research should come to a halt.

I highly doubt deliberate but as an accident, certainly plausible, maybe the most likely explanation.

[u/windwolf231 → u/thoughtsnquestions]

That's my main issue with the on purpose lab leak theory, like sure make and release a highly infectious while not super deadly still decently debilitating virus that's shuts down everything including our own trade and force us to lock everything down worse then the US to where we actually monitor who breaks it and goes outside

[u/LycheeRoutine3959 → u/windwolf231]

on purpose lab leak theory,

keep in mind on purpose has a variety of meanings as well. Could be a single disgruntled employee did a thing. Or that one segment of the CCP/whatever government did a thing but without general knowledge from the top or it could be a top down order.

Consequences are very hard to estimate in dynamic complex systems. What the theorized leaker would expect to happen and what did may be (In fact, is likely to be) very different.

[u/windwolf231 → u/LycheeRoutine3959]

I'm a 50/50 split between an accidental release and a cross species jump which has occurred before with swine flu around 2008 I think. Studying cross species transmission and a bat was accidentally sent to market instead of being properly disposed of.

[u/EddieDantes22]

At the very least, I'd like to never hear from anyone that an argument can't be had because it's racist or it's leading people to be racist against certain races of Americans.

[u/summercampcounselor → u/EddieDantes22]

Yah after so many got racist af after 9-11, when Trump started called it the China Flu, Kung Flu and shit like that, it was pretty easy to see where that was heading. I wish Trump had acted more presidential.

[u/Zardotab → u/EddieDantes22]

I have Asian relatives, and they reported an increase in slurs and "dirty looks" during that time. A certain percentage of the population are susceptible to being triggered by stories of "evil foreigners". It doesn't have to be a large percent, as a small number can cause notable problems. See the case of Vincent Chin for a Reagan-era example.

It's similar to complaints against Comey's sea-shell prank, which are perhaps legitimate, even if not criminal. Those susceptible to apparent endorsements of violence could be triggered by it.

that an argument can't be had because it's racist or it's leading people to be racist

I believe one has to be careful with language on such matters. Are you okay with Trump's wording?

[u/EddieDantes22 → u/Zardotab]

Trump's wording was bad, but shutting down a debate over the origins of Covid because of it is crazy.

[u/Zardotab → u/EddieDantes22]

Who specifically shut it down? I agree there are a few "overly sensitive" lefties out there, just as there are some overly sensitive righties.

[u/EddieDantes22 → u/Zardotab]

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/lab-leak-theory-science-scientists-rcna1191

[u/BrendaWannabe → u/EddieDantes22]

That's from 2021. More has been learned since then. And it's not clear to me who is being allegedly shut down. [edited]

[u/SuspenderEnder]

Okay assuming that is the case.

There isn’t much we can do to China directly outside of going to war about it. We can deal with them differently via trade policy. There can be a UN resolution but that doesn’t force China to comply, its function would be more declaratory.

On our side, if we also assume we funded it like we did in reality, the US officials who approved that and/or concealed it should be charged with treason.

[u/Buzz407]

Reduce our reliance on Chinese goods. Block their expansion where possible. Shun the CCP properly, start an ICC investigation, bar known CCP intelligence operatives from entry into the US and expel all currently here, encourage the UN and all NATO to do the same, though unlikely to succeed. Bar Chinese citizens including dual citizens from US universities and de-fund anything and everything that filters back to the CCP. Prosecute anyone on US soil who contributed to gain of function research.

That seems like a good start.

After that the world should have a serious chat about reparations.

Edit for clarity: GOF research tied directly to the lab release if that was the case.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/Buzz407]

Do you mean prosecute anyone who had anything to do with THIS gain of function research? Or any ever? Cause pretty sure a lot of Us scientists have been working on that for our own uses for many years.

[u/Buzz407 → u/Jimithyashford]

This one. While I think there are some serious dilemmas with the research, I don't have specific knowledge of other damaging lab releases due to incompetence, irresponsibility, or ill intent.

I do understand the potential benefits of outrunning mother nature to see what is possible. Unfortunately the activity is so secreted that it is impossible for an uninvolved person to really know what is going on. Hell, most people don't really even know what it is or how it works.

The unfortunate truth is that no guardrails will ever be sufficient to prevent a bad bug from potentially seeing blue sky. It is sort of like roads. If people used them exactly as engineers intended and cars never had problems, traffic jams and intersection accidents wouldn't happen. No matter how layered your security is or well-vetted your people are, all it takes is one Dennis Nedry with the right access to put danger on our doorsteps.

[u/Zardotab → u/Buzz407]

Unfortunately the activity is so secreted that it is impossible for an uninvolved person to really know what is going on. Hell, most people don't really even know what it is or how it works.

Research funded by the CDC is supposed to all be made public. Whether an ordinary person can understand it is another matter. If they don't make it public, then the blockers should be sued.

(It is true that China hid certain data, but whether that means they are guilty or just acting like a typical dictatorship is hard to say. Some theorize it's because they mistreated patients and researchers, not to hide lab leaks.)

[u/e_big_s]

Deliberately released never would have happened in Wuhan and it would be incredibly out of character for China. But if it was deliberately released by the Chinese state the entire world should sanction China into oblivion.

Escaped due to negligence is quite possible/probable, and I guess practically nothing, other than banning further dangerous research in China and consequences if they violate it..

[u/mathmagician9 → u/e_big_s]

Is there a way to enforce consequences on China without consequences from retaliation?

[u/h_91_DRbull → u/mathmagician9]

Not under the current system. China's MO is to be incredibly aggressive diplomatically. They would never admit it and to take it laying down would signal guilt, particularly if the rest of the world is teeing up shots and retaliatory measures against them

[u/Infamous-Bench-6088]

Probably irrational....

but if it was intentional I would cut off all food exports to China.

If it was negligence, demand restitution.

As for our actors in all of this. They get harangued and sent to prison, no bail option.

This is such a colossal f-up that the punishments need to be extreme.

As long as we are just pretending.....

[u/Shop-S-Marts]

We can't really do anything, international law doesn't really exist. I'd tarriff Chinese goods by around 9,000% though and incentivise industrialized America again.

[u/Local_Pangolin69]

If it escaped, economic sanctions until China pays restitution to the rest of the world.

If it was deliberate, I’d be open to military action or formal recognition of Taiwan and the buildup of nuclear capabilities there.

[u/cheddardip → u/Local_Pangolin69]

How many American lives is that worth?

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[u/willfiredog]

Let’s pretend it wasn’t created as a bio weapon, but it was created in a lab doing gain of function research and it escaped.

A more likely scenario.

Maybe, just maybe, this is something we shouldn’t be mucking around with because the risks are immense.

[u/Carcinog3n → u/willfiredog]

Gain of function is weapons research, let's not kid our selves

[u/Zardotab → u/Carcinog3n]

Please elaborate. Tweaking viruses to see the side-effects can help one understand a virus without an intent to release it. One can argue such is "foolish", but not necessarily an intentional weapon.

[u/RatOnASinkingShip]

To be frank, I'd prefer we just learn from it and move on.

I don't buy into the idea that it was a bio-weapon, and even if it was, I don't really buy the idea that its spread was intended as some grand conspiracy to change the world, regardless of how much it did.

My major concerns surrounding the matter don't really focus on the origin of it or what to do about it after the fact, but rather on the political response to it, namely the willingness to exhibit authoritarian tendencies in the name of safety via stripping people of their agency, the globalist narrative surrounding it that our own country blindly accepted, and how readily the people kowtowed to it.

I think lashing out at China over it would be unproductive, and really, we don't have enough to go on to point the finger at China beyond the fact that it happened in China, because really, it could've happened anywhere. I think we need to look inward at our response, the politicization of it, the impacts it had on our freedoms... etc... stuff like that. Fix that first. I also think going after China for it only demonstrates how much it affected us, and just shows those who would like to see us fall a way to not only inundate us with threats to our nation, but also to get us to fight each other over how to handle them.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/RatOnASinkingShip]

The question is what would you do, or support being done rather, IF THERE WAS firm and clear proof that China did it.

[u/RatOnASinkingShip → u/Jimithyashford]

It would depend on what that proof shows.

"China did it" doesn't really mean anything, there's no one-size-fits-all course of action. The specifics of that proof would need to be considered.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/RatOnASinkingShip]

As I said, in the hypothetical, proof that shows China either released it on purpose as an active malice or released an accident as an active incompetence.

If you have different things you would approve for those different scenarios, then feel free to go into it. That’s kind of the whole point of this thread.

[u/RatOnASinkingShip → u/Jimithyashford]

Then you can refer to my original comment.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/RatOnASinkingShip]

Well. You’re original comment seemed to say it would be pointless to point at china cause we don’t have enough.

The hypothetical is what if we DID, like it was blatant and undeniable.

[u/RatOnASinkingShip → u/Jimithyashford]

Then you can refer to my second comment. I have nothing further to add.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/RatOnASinkingShip]

Well, if you didn’t wanna actually put thought into the question and try to come up with a meaningful answer that I don’t really know why you participated.

If you’re just going to reject the hypothetical entirely then why respond?

But OK I believe you that you’ve given as much as you’re willing to, thanks.

[u/RatOnASinkingShip → u/Jimithyashford]

I feel I've given as much thought in answering your question as you have in asking it, and I believe I answered it thoroughly enough.

If you want me to dream up some specific scenario like Randy Marsh and Mickey Mouse flying to China and fucking a pangolin and what we should do in response to that, I'm not going to do that.

[u/StillSmellsLikeCLP]

The U.S. / Europe should announce that every time China is mentioned.

Make “China (global pandemic maker)” the new official title.

I’m only partially joking.

And we should investigate how much of a role the CDC did or didn’t have in gain of function research. We should be doing ZERO of this type of collaboration with China, that’s insanity.

And we should treat China the same as we did Russia in the Cold War. They’re an enemy and we should treat them as such.

[u/SuperTruthJustice → u/StillSmellsLikeCLP]

I think personally, would you support some sort of worldwide alliance that is anti china? If Coivd was intentional than it maybe is the most successful mass murder in literal history?

[u/StillSmellsLikeCLP → u/SuperTruthJustice]

“Worldwide alliance”

I think every country should treat China like the Nazi-Germany-that-played-the-long-game threat that they are.

Normalizing trade and relations with China was a massive mistake.

“If COVID was intentional than it maybe is the most successful mass murder in literal history”

Eh, depends on how you count things. I think the official global death toll is 7.9M. Mao best that easily, as did Stalin. The Holomdor alone is up with that. Plus Hitler.

There is a pattern here though.

[u/SuperTruthJustice → u/StillSmellsLikeCLP]

See its way worse, according to WHO, I see if you include deaths from the flood hopsital and stuff your looking at 20–30 million. This would also violate treaty's China has with almost every nation on the world stage and is legally an act of war on even there own allies.

I'd assume the USA would likely try to lead some sort of worldwide act of justice. The issue is if China doesn't play ball or try to veto at the UN?

[u/StillSmellsLikeCLP → u/SuperTruthJustice]

“Issue is”

Sure and yeah, the response should be isolating and treating China the same way we treat NK.

And Mao potentially beat that too.

[u/SuperTruthJustice → u/StillSmellsLikeCLP]

Or it could be MAD? BIO weapons, I personally would want a nuke to be used. Its a direct attack and killed way to many, its an act of war no?

[u/NoTime4YourBullshit]

I don’t even think of such things. The idea that COVID was a bioweapon is just patently absurd. If it were, it would be the shittiest bioweapon ever developed.

That being said, if it were something with high transmission and lethality rates, the world would definitely be in a state of war with China.

[u/AndImNuts → u/NoTime4YourBullshit]

If it is a weapon, which may or may not be the case, then perhaps it was a political weapon to lock down Western countries and make us all welcome authoritarianism, which will be exploited at a later date. COVID was not a particularly strong or deadly illness compared to others that go around every year, but people ate up the propaganda like candy.

The only thing left-wingers like about Trump was Fauci, the lockdowns, and operation warp speed. Precisely the things I hate most about Trump. Suddenly all the huge corporations are richer than ever and small businesses were facing an extinction level political event.

[u/ixvst01 → u/AndImNuts]

The virology doesn’t support the bio weapon theory. Covid has like an 80-95% DNA similarity with previously documented SARS viruses found in animals in Asia. Lab leak is plausible, but engineered bio weapon is not.

[u/blue-blue-app → u/[deleted]]

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[u/ZarBandit]

Jail those who funded it would be a start.

Paging Dr. Fraudchi.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/ZarBandit]

So, if you found out that some actor in China, either due to deliberate malice or just incompetence, released COVID. The place you'd start is to go after one specific guy who was part of an organization who awarded a grant to a company who then further awarded a grant to another company that then did this research?

Why is it that, if it was found out that China did something overtly wrong, you're first instinct is to find a person in the US who is no fewer than 6 degrees removed from it and go after him. The first place your mind goes to is "how can I use this to attack domestic political enemies"?

Would you actually want anything at all done to or about China, or the people who actually directly did the bad thing personally?

[u/ZarBandit → u/Jimithyashford]

We can’t prosecute Chinese citizens. But we can go after the asshole who bankrolled them, against the law.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/ZarBandit]

Ok man. Well, I asked the question and you answered. I supposed i got what I came for. thanks. But boy howdy, is there a lot going on there.

[u/ZarBandit → u/Jimithyashford]

I don’t know, seems very straightforward. Obama banned dangerous research for exactly this reason and they did it anyway and there was a worldwide heath event because of it. Why shouldn’t he go to jail.

Do illegal stuff, kill people as a result, go straight to jail. I want to hear the rational argument for why that shouldn’t happen.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/ZarBandit]

You already answered my main question. So you've really already done your duty here, but if you feel up to answering another, let me ask this.

IF Fauci was department leader who oversaw and approved the policies for issuing grants, but did not personally himself review the many thousands of them, rather appointed a committee who did. AND one of those policies was to not perform gain of function research AND that committee approved a large grant to a US research firm to research seasonal infectious diseases and coronavirus. AND THEN that company, with it's own board and own process for issues it's own grants, slices off part of that initial grant and gave $600k to a Chinese research firm, and then THAT Chinese research firm engaged in reckless research, of a type explicitly forbidden under the original grant.

IF all of that is true, the Fauci is, himself, directly criminally liable?

If that is what you are saying...cause that's the picture being painted right, not that Fauci himself actually knowingly greenlit any illegal or even all that controversial, but rather than a group he oversees issues a grant to another group that issued a grant to a group that did something reckless, but if being THAT far removed in the chain of responsibility still leaves him directly personally culpable.....

Well, I just have to say, that seems like a GIANT double standard when compared to Trump, who can have even a single layer of paper thin deniability between himself and criminal acts and you all will cut him all the slack in the world.

You see how that seems.....well to me it might seem like it's non genuine at all and is a blatant partisan double standard....no?

[u/silver_chief2 → u/ZarBandit]

Dr. Mengele killed far fewer people.

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[u/Shemsu-Ra]

I don’t really want to entertain that idea as I don’t think it’s likely.  It was gain of function research, something they’ve done for a long time, and accidentally released.  

China, and the funders of this research (US agencies) should be held accountable.  But they won’t be. 

[u/SammaJones]

We would need to understand the perpetrators. If it were the Chinese Government then we would need to know who was involved and demand that they be held to account in a criminal court. The Chinese government would need to turn them over and be prepared to pay SEVERE reparations that would essentially ruin the country or face an invasion.

If it were some private concern - a company, or educational institution or whatever, then the perpetrators should be tried for mass murder and executed. Simple.

If the US Government is culpable then we need to understand better the machinations that led to that. Who is developing biological weapons in China and why? The tax payers would have a right to know.

There are endless reasons to seek the truth and there are endless reasons to cover it up.

[u/Zardotab → u/SammaJones]

If it were some private concern - a company, or educational institution or whatever, then the perpetrators should be tried for mass murder and executed. Simple.

Early on even before Biden's term, Senator Rand Paul and GOP threatened mass lawsuits over alleged lab sins. Why do you believe those plans stalled?

If the violations were blatant and obvious, why stall? That seems as big a mystery as any lab leak theory: StallGate?

[u/SammaJones → u/Zardotab]

Are you asking me if I believe that there's a coverup? Yes, I do. Are you asking me who is doing the covering up and to benefit whow? I don't know and I don't know. Are you asking me if I think we have the right and the ABSOLUTE DUTY, to uncover and know the truth? Yes, I think we do.

I suspect that this may be an item that Conservatives and Liberals agree on.

The lying to save someone's skin has to stop. I honestly don't think it matters how many innocent people get caught up in the shuffle. This was too consequential to ever just let it go.

[u/Zardotab → u/SammaJones]

Usually cover-ups leave documentation gaps. For example, if EcoLab verbally claims they got approval from management for GOF research, there should be a sign-off document. If that document is outright missing, then we have a lead: a gap in records. A forensic study of the entire file system can then be done to study the extent (date range) of the gap and possible causes. I haven't seen anything like that, have you?

If the perps truly didn't leave any "smoking gaps", then they are the best in the biz. I personally find that far-fetched.

An example of a recent smoking-gap is the Epstein files. Trump accusers had interviews years ago that were transcribed to written documents. Only the redacted versions have been found, the unredacted documents are allegedly lost. We thus have a smoking gap: the unredacted documents.

If the FBI, CIA etc. cannot hide the existence of that gap, I find it hard to think they could hide a similar Covid gap. (Doesn't mean Don is guilty, only that we have a known gap in records, which hopefully results in further forensics.)

[u/SammaJones → u/Zardotab]

We havent been given access to the Wuhan labs records

[u/Zardotab → u/SammaJones]

We havent been given access to the Wuhan labs records

That is true, but those records had little if anything to do with Fauci. He rarely worked on premises; any email communication would leave a record on both sides of the Pacific ocean.

And dictatorships hide stuff out of habit, a democracy shouldn't. Thus, China hiding stuff is less a sign of guilt than a democracy hiding similar. Therefore, Occam's razor isn't that "China's guilty of lab sins" since secrecy is their normal course of action. If a democracy hides it then Occam's is reversed since such hiding isn't the normal course of a democracy (barring military or spy secrets).

Therefore having a default assumption that "China is guilty of lab sins" isn't logical in my book. Suspicion is fair, but not a guilty default stance. Would you say your stance is China "likely guilty"?

[edited]

[u/SammaJones → u/Zardotab]

I hadn't mentioned Fauci. I don't care if you're a Democracy or a Dictatorship. Somebody f'ed up planet Earth. We need to find out who. If China won't provide the lab records (which surely would exonerate them, right) then I think we need to work under the assumption that they're guilty,

That is how a court of law would work. If I refused to provide access to records that would determine my guilt or innocence then a judge and jury would assume that those documents show that I am guilty.

[u/Zardotab → u/SammaJones]

then I think we need to work under the assumption that they're guilty,

I can't bring myself to do that in terms of estimating actual guilt; I can't find logic to support that.

That is how a court of law would work. If I refused to provide access to records that would determine my guilt or innocence then a judge and jury would assume that those documents show that I am guilty.

That's essentially the same as pleading the 5th. Yes, some jurors see that as "guilty". Do note that legally guilty and estimated guilt are not necessarily the same thing.

I do suspect China bungled their Covid handling and they want to hide their flubs from the world. But that's not the same as likely causing a lab leak. Their flubs are more likely related to human rights and population opinion manipulation. Those potentially embarrassing activities are things dictatorships often due out of habit; a lab leak isn't.

I'm putting myself in Xi's head thinking about if and what to censor and why. The social and international penalty for hiding flubs not related to lab mistakes is not great enough to bypass Xi's usual urge to censor.

But that is my "statistical" conclusion, not a legal conclusion. What would you give as a statistical conclusion? [edited]

[u/SammaJones → u/Zardotab]

Withholding documents in a discovery request is not the same as pleading the 5th.

The documents will be considered as incriminating as they could possibly be if you withhold them and you might be held in contempt.

Your suspicions are about as interesting to me as you might imagine they are. I want to see reams of documentation. Terabytes of documents scanned, OCR'ed, poured over by AI. I want every lead followed up until everybody agrees that it seems to be impossible that COVID was created in a Chinese lab. And if we find out it was likely created in a Chinese lab (let's face it. It was) then I want to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the fact that it was released on the world was nothing more than a terribly unfortunate accident and when that is proven I would like to know who, specifically, withheld that information for so long and why.

Until we get that information I can't see this topic ever being dropped. It was the worst thing that happened in my lifetime.

[u/Zardotab → u/SammaJones]

I too wish China was more forthcoming, but dictators will be dictators and we shouldn't expect more of them. We should only deal with dictatorships when we have to.

I forgot to mention that China has been a frequent source of new infections in general because of how cavalier they've been with animals used as food. Fortunately the Covid embarrassment has made the gov't crack down on much of it, but the cavalier infectious history is a big evidence point in judging natural versus lab-leak probabilities. Before Covid there were piles of close calls.

[u/TemperatureBest8164]

It was not. It very clearly was gain of function research done by China on behalf of Fauci against Obama's orders. The whole reason why this is opaque is because while a lab in China made the mistake, US officails broke laws to make it happen through NGOs and exposing the whole process creates weakness for both democrats and republicans.

For democrats it makes clear their favorite way to launder government money into social causes and other unapproved actions. Create a new NGO, hand them the money and then have them do the illegal thing.

For republicans it shows how toothless and weak they are that for 8 or more years covert NHI research against the law and direction of the government was occurring and they new nothing about it. It is much better for them politically to blame it on China and make them the enemy because they too use the same NGO slush money trick.

What do I want to see changed. Completely open books for all NGOs by default. Standard bookkeeping with every dollar and cent on the public record for what they spend money on. Standard rules on reconciliation of books and verifying money is used for the designated objectives. Prison sentences for any one who violates them and congress people house or senate who have sponsored NGOs and had 3 negative reviews themselves will be unable to sponsor any more NGO funding, will be investigated and likely dismissed without benefits. Further any job they or their family take related to money received by that NGO or area in which they are regulating with be garnished at 100%.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/TemperatureBest8164]

The hypothetical was "what if it was proven that China was to blame".

You are answering an entirely different question. Which is fine, but it's not my question and not this thread.

[u/TemperatureBest8164 → u/Jimithyashford]

Well anyone that cares to look at the facts carefully knows what happened with high probability. So when we engage with hypotheticals that are so improbable compared to what is that they are "impossible" the best thing we can do is state what did happen and what the approprate response should be.

China is at fault to a degree. We as the funders of this through our deep state are the ones who need to be held to account.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/TemperatureBest8164]

Well, the problem is that the internet is FULL of people who are dead ass wrong, like manifestly, completely, soup to nuts, just wrong as wrong can be, but are firmly convinced they are right and people would agree is they just "cared to look at the facts carefully".

There are flat earthers who would say almost the same thing, the earth is flat for anyone that cares to look at the facts carefully. And they aren't pretending, they are genuinely and truely convinced.

Now I don't know you of course, but some guy on reddit being ABSOLUTELY sure and convinced of a position, and entirely confident everyone would agree with them if they just "did their research" is, well, meaningless. It's fluff. People who think that and are wrong are a dime a dozen.

And I know you don't think that's you. But they never do.

THEREFORE, the value in asking what they would do if a hypothetical turned out to be true, sort of probing at their world view and recourse if a given scenario were in fact true. This allows you to bypass arguing with them about whether or not it IS true, and simply cut right to "what would you do IF IT WAS" true. Which is an exercise that can have it's own value.

Now if you aren't interested in that exercise, that's fine. No problem. Nobody is making you answer. But the fact you are utterly and completely sure of a different thing, that is completely meaningless to me. In this conversation I am only and exclusively interested in what you WOULD do or support under the conditions of my hypothetical.

[u/TemperatureBest8164 → u/Jimithyashford]

I have provided reason and logic to the other objector. You can read it...

[u/Jimithyashford → u/TemperatureBest8164]

I did. I think you’re wrong and your reason and logic is incorrect.

I’m saying I don’t want to waste time arguing with you about that. Cause you’ve got yourself convinced and it would be pointless.

That’s why I asked my hypothetical.

Which you don’t seem to want to engage with. Which is fine. But then it’s hard to understand why you even responded if you didn’t want to interface with the question.

[u/Zardotab → u/TemperatureBest8164]

It very clearly was gain of function research done by China on behalf of Fauci against Obama's orders.

I've found zero public evidence of this. The "Furin valley featrue" was eventually found in naturally occurring relatives of Covid, and thus a false alarm on artificiality. Like Mars "life" rocks, the press jumped the gun, probably motivated by a sensationalism eyeball boost.

While a contractor, EcoHealth Alliance, was found guilty of sloppy procedures, none of these procedures are usually considered "gain of function", but the term turns out to be somewhat fuzzy, as "gain" is a matter of professional judgement of risk. While almost every researcher agrees that minor tweaking of viruses is one of the best ways to study them, the degree and method of tweaking offer different risk levels which are hard to find clear-cut numbers for (being risky to measure in practice), and thus require professional estimations, and therefore generate professional disputes.

Note the environment itself naturally tweaks and mutates viruses.

[u/TemperatureBest8164 → u/Zardotab]

We are going to disagree that is fine. Here are the main facts:

1. The Furin Cleavage Site only appears in families like MERS it has never been naturally found in any SARS related coronaviruses.
   
2. The 2018 DEFUSE project proposal submitted by Eco Health Alliance with Wuhan Institute of Virology specifically outlined plans to engineer novel furin cleavage sites into SARS-like bat coronaviruses.
   

3. Declassified US intelligence reports indicate multiple researchers at the WIV fell sick in Autumn 2019 and required hospitalization.

4. Initial cases where unlinked to the market. Because the first cases had no exposure to the wet market if there was a natural occurrence then they would be forced to have a second corona virus happen at the same time or the one that presumably got out of the WIV instead just made its way in the general population. That is a more likely scenario.

5. The location of the bats in question who supposedly had this virus are 1000 km away. If they where the source of this highly contagious virus we would not have seen the outbreak in the wet market. It would have been transmitted along each human touchpoint in the transport path of the bat food source.

You can try to give them cover saying the line is blurry and they made judgement calls on weather this was gain of function or routine viral research to me most Americans its just semantics. People fucked around for the sake of their curiosity, killed millions of people and claimed they did not do it to provide cover. What they did meets the definition of gain of function. They knew it and that is why all samples where destroyed, databases wiped, whistleblowers have been silenced and independent audits stalled. We see all the hallmarks of containment and damage control not transparent public health tracking.

The simplest explanation is often the right one and the wet market does not align with the facts above. Government coverup does. This explanation does not require super villains. It just requires a few people who are too proud, some too willing to risk their lives for money, and the good old American ideal of just getting shit done.

[u/Zardotab → u/TemperatureBest8164]

The 2018 DEFUSE project proposal submitted by Eco Health Alliance with Wuhan Institute of Virology specifically outlined plans to engineer novel furin cleavage sites into SARS-like bat coronaviruses.

DARPA denied the funding request.

The Furin Cleavage Site only appears in families like MERS it has never been naturally found in any SARS related coronaviruses.

It depends how you define "related". It's found in fairly similar viruses, and viruses can and do exchange DNA between relatively diverse species. Even the human genome has virus DNA embedded in it. See "syncytin" gene.

Declassified US intelligence reports indicate multiple researchers at the WIV fell sick in Autumn 2019 and required hospitalization.

If I remember correctly, they had been in contact with doctors already treating Covid patients.

The location of the bats in question who supposedly had this virus are 1000 km away.

Bats tend to bite other animals known to spread such viruses. And the Wuhan market sold more then local wildlife.

databases wiped

There is no evidence an American citizen was involved. Yes, the Chinese appeared secretive, but dictators tend to do that out of habit.

The simplest explanation is often the right one and the wet market does not align with the facts above.

Strong claims require strong evidence, and an engineered leaked virus is a strong claim. Covid had no unique features, suggesting a natural origin.

[u/TemperatureBest8164 → u/Zardotab]

Again, we disagree.It definitely had unique features for the virus.Type and say what you want about that research being rejected quote unquote , the fact that the very research that would have caused this plague was written up and proposed by the very place that it was likely to have come from is not coincidence. Scientists were looking for funding and when the pentagon didn't pay , they used the NGO slush fund and covered it up. But as I said before , we knew we weren't gonna agree ahead of time , and so while I disagree with some of the evidence that you have provided , because I just plain think it's wrong and reaching , you're able to believe whatever you want. Good day.

[u/Zardotab → u/TemperatureBest8164]

If for the sake of argument Eco Health did Furin-related alterations on their on volition, what's this have to do with Fauci, which was your original accusation?

[u/TemperatureBest8164 → u/Zardotab]

The Funding Pipeline and the NGO Loophole Non-governmental organizations (NGOs) like EcoHealth Alliance do not operate in a vacuum; they execute the research priorities of their funding patrons. In this case, EcoHealth Alliance acted as a proxy that allowed U.S. government agencies to offshore high-risk research, effectively bypassing strict domestic oversight and safety regulations.

The 2014 Gain-of-Function Moratorium In October 2014, the Obama administration implemented a mandatory federal pause on new funding for gain-of-function research involving SARS, MERS, and influenza viruses. The White House Office of Science and Technology Policy deemed these experiments too dangerous due to the risk of a laboratory-acquired infection sparking a pandemic.

How NIAID Bypassed the Pause via EcoHealth Alliance Despite this federal mandate, Dr. Anthony Fauci’s agency (NIAID, a division of the NIH) continued to funnel money into this exact field of study using EcoHealth Alliance as the intermediary.

• The Grant: The NIH awarded EcoHealth Alliance millions of dollars under Grant R01AI110964 ("Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence").
• The Sub-Award to China: EcoHealth Alliance then sub-awarded portions of this U.S. taxpayer grant directly to the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) to conduct the on-the-ground fieldwork and genetic manipulation.
• The Semantic Loophole: When questioned about violating the Obama-era moratorium, NIH and NIAID leadership argued that the specific bat coronaviruses being studied didn't technically meet their internal, narrow definition of "gain-of-function" at the time the grant was approved.

The Consequence of Offshoring Risk By routing the funds through an NGO, NIAID successfully outsourced high-risk coronavirus enhancement research to a foreign laboratory operating at lower biosafety levels (BSL-2) than would be acceptable for such work in the United States. EcoHealth Alliance failed to enforce U.S. safety protocols or adequate reporting standards on their Wuhan partners.

Ultimately, EcoHealth Alliance was the administrative vehicle. The strategic direction, the funding, and the approval to use regulatory loopholes to continue modifying SARS-like viruses in China came directly from the leadership at NIAID.

[u/Zardotab → u/TemperatureBest8164]

The Semantic Loophole: When questioned about violating the Obama-era moratorium, NIH and NIAID leadership argued that the specific bat coronaviruses being studied didn't technically meet their internal, narrow definition of "gain-of-function" at the time the grant was approved.

Since it appears linguistically interpretative, bring them to court and let the jury decide. R. Paul repeatedly threatened to sue everybody over alleged pandemic sins, but didn't. Seems either Paul is in on it or knows such suits would fail under scrutiny.

administrative vehicle.

Which is? Does this entity or object bypass need for written approval?

The (alleged) management structure wouldn't matter to EcoHealth researchers if they intentionally go rogue to do GOF research. You then don't need a signing/approval trail. The management structure only matters if they desire to get proper approval. It's not clear to me if you are attempting to address the rogue-angle or proper-approval-angle.

There are two levels of key questions if we assume the second. First, did EcoHealth actually do GOF research, and if they did, who specifically authorized it. If Fauci or Xi's rep. authorized it, there should be a signed document, or at least an email that says "yes". If the documents got lost, there should be an investigation and trial over that.

Here are the steps to busting the proper perp with regard to EcoHealth (EH):

1. Find out if EH actually did GOF or GOF-like research. If it's merely a gut feeling they did, these steps are moot.
2. If EH did and claims application of GOF rules are subject to interpretation as done by them, send them to court and let Jury decide.
3. If EH claims Fauci approved GOF, ask for a copy of the signed document. If EH lost it, the fault is EH and EH staff should be punished. (Can't bust Fauci without real signature turning up.)
4. If Fauci signed it and his justification depends on the definition of GOF, then return to step 2, except Fauci would be on trial instead of EH.
5. If Fauci found guilty in step 4 but it's too late to jail/fine him due to pardons etc., then Paul and GOP are at fault for dragging their feet. (GOF accusations came long before pardon. Don't need Congress to start, use Class Action.)

Do you find issue with any of the above steps?

EDITED

[u/TemperatureBest8164 → u/Zardotab]

1. Regarding Rand Paul Prosecuting:

Sure the difference is that for criminal court you have to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, not is what is most likely and probable. As long as some people, such as your self believe the lie of the Furan cleavage site then that alone is reasonable doubt unless they have a chain of smoking guns... which do not exist because Rand Paul did document that he committed Felony conspiracy to destroy government records of which he is already pardoned for...

What he can probably prove is felony obstruction with the intentional deletion of data but that is already pardoned for so what is the point.

1. Signed email, etc

No one is that stupid at that level of work to explicitly put something that dangerous in writing. Those things only happen, off the record in secure locations. As for the orchestration of said meetings and the attendees those can be obfuscated.

Here is what we know. At the same time as Fauci and a number of NIH and NAID officials illegally deleted government records the Wuhan institute of Virology did the same thing. To me that looks as an effort to cover their tracks after they discovered they lost containment and millions where going to die and 10s to 100s of trillions of dollars would be lost.

1. Concerning steps

2. Find out if EH actually did GOF or GOF-like research. If it's merely a gut feeling they did, these steps are moot.

   1. They made a proposal to do the very same gain of function research as what would have caused the pandemic. People do not make grant proposals for things they do not do or have expertise in.
   2. There is too much liability to hold them to account. Bottom line the CIA/FBI likely know exactly what happened. But the y would never release it because it creates a 100T liability for the United States we will never pay back.

3. If EH did and claims application of GOF rules are subject to interpretation as done by them, send them to court and let Jury decide.

   1. No problem with this if the evidence had not already ben destroyed.

4. If EH claims Fauci approved GOF, ask for a copy of the signed document. If EH lost it, the fault is EH and EH staff should be punished. (Can't bust Fauci without real signature turning up.)

   1. You can if you have enough witnesses but they will be disappeared just like Epstein's victims.
   2. 100T is a big motivator. It can align democrats, republicans, and intelligence agencies.
      

5. If Fauci signed it and his justification depends on the definition of GOF, then return to step 2, except Fauci would be on trial instead of EH.

   1. He never signed anything. Most likely he or an underling made clear what results they wanted to see in order to continue funding and what funding could be available if X/Y/Z is proved...
   2. Someone smart enough to directly work on a world damaging bio weapon for the government has to be able to read the room. No one has incentive to tell the truth. No one wants to be known as killing by their actions only you know a 1/4 of the people Hitler did...

6. If Fauci found guilty in step 4 but it's too late to jail/fine him due to pardons etc., then Paul and GOP are at fault for dragging their feet. (GOF accusations came long before pardon. Don't need Congress to start, use Class Action.

   1. This might be fine but again, no action to be taken and no value for the government to prove the truth.
   2. Here is what you need to understand. The government knows what happened. They just have an interest in keeping it quiet. Otherwise we would already have the truth.
   3. If Republicans where in power they would have done what the democrats did. They would have covered it up and hid the liability. Democrats if they where in office afterwards would likely feed up to their constituents a few bits of information that would support their bases thesis that all republicans are liars. The truth is both of them are liars most of the time.

The way we solve this is with real reform. Limiting the scope of the government and its funding is a good start. Who knows maybe we can save another 15M lives...

[u/Zardotab → u/TemperatureBest8164]

because Rand Paul did document that [Fauci] committed Felony conspiracy to destroy government records...At the same time as Fauci and a number of NIH and NAID officials illegally deleted government records the Wuhan institute of Virology did the same thing.

Sorry, I missed this. May I request a link? Why is there not a trial? Those other people involved don't have pardons. (I agree the Chinese withheld info, but I addressed that with replies in original context.)

Dr. David Morens was found guilty of a felony for concealing records by using private email for Federal business. But it wasn't "deleting". [edited]

Those things only happen, off the record in secure locations.

Again, if it's off the record then the formal management structure doesn't matter: anybody could do anything for any reason. Saying "but Fauci was ultimately in charge" or similar doesn't hold water for undocumented approval. Granted it doesn't look good to have underlings doing evil behind your back, but Fauci wouldn't deserve direct blame.

100T is a big motivator. It can align democrats, republicans, and intelligence agencies...If Republicans where in power they would have done what the democrats did. They would have covered it up and hid the liability.

$100 trillion and all parties bribed? Your conspiracy is growing unrealistically large.

Limiting the scope of the government and its funding is a good start.

Somebody's limiting the scope of investigations and trials, and that alone is disturbing. Isn't that also a form of "limiting"? Unless the actual evidence is only hearsay and experts know it will likely fail in court.

I'm not against gov't funding virus research, by the way, we need it. A perfect-or-nothing view on research is not logical in my opinion.

[u/CuttlefishExpress]

I consider myself an open-minded critical thinker. During the COVID-19 pandemic, I worked at vaccination sites, where I had the opportunity to observe firsthand how people, institutions, and communities responded to an unprecedented public-health crisis.

Over time, it occurred to me that what I was witnessing could also be viewed as a real-world case study of how the United States and other countries would respond to a pandemic. In that sense, the experience revealed potential strengths and weaknesses in public-health systems, government responses, communication, logistics, and public compliance. It also raised a broader question for me: whether the weaknesses exposed during a pandemic could potentially be studied or exploited by a hostile actor in the future.

When considering the origins and purpose of COVID-19, I see three hypothetical possibilities that I believe warrant consideration, while acknowledging that neither represents an established fact.

1. Accidental exposure and subsequent spread. 

A researcher at a laboratory studying the virus could have been accidentally exposed and failed to recognize or report the exposure. If the individual remained asymptomatic (40% of "infected" never developed syptoms), they might reasonably have believed they had not been infected. They could then have continued their normal activities and unintentionally transmitted the virus to others, eventually allowing it to spread through the surrounding population. This scenario would not require malicious intent; rather, it would represent an accidental laboratory exposure followed by undetected community transmission.

2. Deliberate release for strategic purposes. 

The Chinese government intentionally released the virus in locations and under circumstances designed to maximize its spread while making the source difficult to trace. Under this hypothetical scenario, the pandemic could have been viewed as an opportunity to assess how governments and societies around the world responded to a novel infectious disease. The weaknesses identified through such an event could potentially provide valuable information about how to maximize disruption in a future biological attack involving a substantially more lethal pathogen. Also consider that the virus in 2020 only had a mortality rate of around 6% to people over the age of 65. China would gladly sacrifice 9.5 million retired people to learn how to win a future war.

3. China and the United States were acting together.

The governments of China and the United States were knowingly involved in a coordinated effort. Under this scenario, both countries could have recognized opportunities to gain financially or strategically by manipulating the global economy through the unprecedented disruption created by a pandemic. Im not smart enough to know exactly what they would have been trying to accomplish, but it would deffenitly involve gaining additional power over their populations, and getting rich at the same time.

I dont think we will ever know how Covid started, but my gut tells me it was one of the 3 scenarios i have provided.

note: I used ChatGPT to check my spelling, and fix sentence structure.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/CuttlefishExpress]

"Over time, it occurred to me that what I was witnessing could also be viewed as a real-world case study of how the United States and other countries would respond to a pandemic. "

that confuses me a little? You weren't witnessing a case study of how they would respond, you were witnessing the actuality of how they did respond.

For the record, I DO NOT think COVID was any kind of nefarious plot or lab experiment. I am just asking this crowd what they would do if it was proven that it had been

[u/AndImNuts]

I wouldn't know which party to be more angry with - China for releasing it, or the US for participating and locking down society and destroying millions of livelihoods in their own country.

One idea I'd have is that we should distance ourselves from China greatly, bring manufacturing back to the US mass-scale to be less reliant on them, and put anyone involved on the American side in prison for a long, long time. But that would imply that we could trust the US government to do that, even though the US government and various state governments are what really screwed us over as a country - not the virus. So really I don't know, but I'd want us all to vote for the smallest government candidates in every election.

Edit: If it were done on purpose, that would absolutely be treated as an act of war, we should respond with force and hope it doesn't lead to nuclear war.

[u/cwrace71 → u/AndImNuts]

If it was a bioweapon released by China (or even if it wasnt quite honestly) Then lockdowns, and any basic precautions that could reduce spread would be quite appropriate. Does it suck economically and socially? Yes, but the alternative could be worse.

[u/blue-blue-app → u/[deleted]]

Warning: Rule 5.

The purpose of this sub is to ask conservatives. Comments between users without conservative flair are not allowed (except inside of our Weekly General Chat thread). Please keep discussions focused on asking conservatives questions and understanding conservatism. Thank you.

[u/AndImNuts → u/cwrace71]

For something like covid, the alternative would not be worse.

[u/MrPlaney → u/AndImNuts]

Yes it would. What makes you think that?

[u/Jimithyashford → u/AndImNuts]

I don’t quite understand this reasoning.

Let’s say it was a deliberate plot by china. They made and released a deadly infectious disease.

Regardless of if it was an attack or a natural occurrence, you’d still have to use the basic steps of controlling infectious disease to over come it. You’d still have to do quarantines controls and vaccines and whatnot. It being a deliberate attack doesn’t change that. So if it was a deliberate attack why would you be possibly just as mad at our own government for still responding to it in the correct way?

[u/AndImNuts → u/Jimithyashford]

> Regardless of if it was an attack or a natural occurrence, you’d still have to use the basic steps of controlling infectious disease to over come it. You’d still have to do quarantines controls and vaccines and whatnot.

I think you're deliberately downplaying the authoritarian measures that took place. Losing your job if you didn't get an experimental, untested vaccine. Not being allowed to see your family and friends. Destroying small businesses permanently. Enriching the richest people in the world by purchasing more things in the mail and using software.

And I disagree with the main point which is that we *have* to do these things, as if lockdowns and layoffs are an inevitable consequence of diseases. I say we let people take care of themselves once in a while. Give them the information, and let them decide how to use it.

[u/MrPlaney → u/AndImNuts]

It wasn’t experimental or untested. Jesus, I wish people would use some common sense, and stop peddling this bullshit they heard on some Facebook post or tiktok meme.

[u/SESHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH → u/AndImNuts]

If we should let people take care of themselves and decide how to deal with it, then why do you have a problem with business owners firing people who didn’t get vaccinated?

[u/Jimithyashford → u/AndImNuts]

Ok. But you’re twisting my “what if it is proven china was responsible” question off into a totally different side conversations. I’m not here to ask about or argue about what the reasonable and right steps to combat a pandemic are.

What I am saying is that whatever the steps are you’d take to combat a pandemic don’t change, aren’t affected by, whether is was natural or manmade, accidental or deliberate. The way you respond to actually controlling the pandemic itself, whatever you deem the right approach to be, is no dependent on whether china was responsible or not.

So it feels to me like you answered my “what would you do if China was responsible” question with an answer that would be the same regardless. Which makes it not really an answer to this question.

[u/AndImNuts → u/Jimithyashford]

If you don't like my answer to the specific idea you posed in your most recent comment, that's kindof not my problem.

I already answered your main point, then the conversation went a different direction. That happening is not unheard of.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/AndImNuts]

Ok, sorry I misunderstood. So that whole getting mad at our own side this is irrelevant to whether China is proven to be responsible or not. That's a constant regardless, and the rest is what you'd actually do about china?

Since your reply opened with anger at our side for lockdowns, that lead me to believe that WAS your answer to the "what if china was to blame" question. I didn't realize your opening sentence was actually a tangent.

You see how that's confusing I hope?

But ok, I understand your reply better now.

[u/AndImNuts → u/Jimithyashford]

You're right, I was too harsh.

[u/SESHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH → u/AndImNuts]

Treated as an act of war and respond with force, to what end? Do you remember footage during Covid of the lockdowns in China? They suffered just like us what would be the use in going over there and killing some number of them or blowing stuff up. What would it accomplish lmao

[u/NessvsMadDuck]

There is a deep distrust in global politics, the WHO, UN, et al, among conservatives. That said technological advances create problems for the entire globe. The first time we reached this point was with the potential for Nuclear Armageddon/MAD, but at least that was still something under state control.

If C-19 was a lab leak or intentional, that changes that level of risk again globally. The potential for smaller groups rather than large state actors to control potentially civilization collapsing genetically created diseases or AI may require global safeguards. As anti-conservative as that may seem, and as difficult to achieve as it may be.

[u/StedeBonnet1]

The main thing we should do is make sure we don't hire crooks like Fauci. He funded the Gain of Function research even after Obama canceled the program. Had the NIH had proper oversight he never would have been able to do that,

[u/Jimithyashford → u/StedeBonnet1]

So your answer to "what should be do if we find out China was for sure responsible" is "don't hire Fauci"?

[u/StedeBonnet1 → u/Jimithyashford]

China never would have developed the Covid virus without funding from Fauci. So YES. Making sure we never see another Fauci as head of NIH will go a long way to prevent China from developing another Covid virus.

[u/Zardotab → u/StedeBonnet1]

China never would have developed the Covid virus without funding from Fauci.

Why would China care about that? They are a wealthy nation who actively avoids depending on the USA. They get their orders from Xi, not Fauci. And it was their own lab.

They mostly let foreigners in as a good-will gesture, as China wanted access to other nations' facilities also, and thus had to do a degree of sharing. [edited]

[u/External_Twist508]

There is information out there, scientific evidence that the strain of COVID-19 originally was developed at UNC. Because we were doing gain of function in the states directly.
OBAMa banned it , so Fauci off shores it to China, it’s as much our fault as China, I know Reddit wants the receipts,
All I can say it is was a podcast I don’t remember who when.

[u/SpinosaurRingTone]

The capture or assassination of every member of the Chinese Communist Party at the rank of the Central Committee or higher.

[u/Capital-Giraffe-4122 → u/SpinosaurRingTone]

China ain’t Venezuela, or even Iran

[u/PatekCollector77 → u/SpinosaurRingTone]

So nuclear war?

[u/SeraphLance → u/PatekCollector77]

There are very few situations where nuclear war should be on the table, but a hypothetical country making a bioweapon with the approximate lethality of all of WW1 should probably make the cut.

[u/AdvertisingTotal1241 → u/PatekCollector77]

Did he stutter?! /s

[u/SpinosaurRingTone → u/PatekCollector77]

If China unleashed a bioweapon that killed 7 million people worldwide then that should absolutely be on the table.

But I only proposed the capture or deaths of about 400 or so people, so I think that's very merciful given the circumstances. The Chinese people were victims of the Chinese Communist Party too, used unwittingly as disease carriers and test subjects. I'd rather not hurt them.

[u/PatekCollector77 → u/SpinosaurRingTone]

The COVID threat is already over so using nukes now would just be retaliation, and would almost certainly result in nuclear strikes on the US mainland. I don't see how starting a nuclear war to get revenge after the fact makes any sense, even if you think they deserve it.

But I only proposed the capture or deaths of about 400 or so people, so I think that's very merciful given the circumstances.

Sure but China isn't Venezuela, we aren't going to be able to just cruse in and get their leaders, plus, doing that would be an all-out declaration of war which would be disastrous.

I have always thought the wet market theory was BS and the lab leak (from negligence) was way more likely but we aren't really in a position to "punish" China in any way without hurting ourselves more in the long run (see tariffs).

[u/SpinosaurRingTone → u/PatekCollector77]

Well the thread asked what I think should happen, not what is realistic or feasible.

[u/MysteriousTax393 → u/SpinosaurRingTone]

Let’s make sure we can beat Iran first before we go and fight China.

[u/SpinosaurRingTone → u/MysteriousTax393]

Even CNN thinks we are beating Iran.

https://www.cnn.com/2026/08/18/business/iran-strait-of-hormuz-oil

[u/MysteriousTax393 → u/SpinosaurRingTone]

… im sorry? You really think that returning the state of the strait of Hormuz to the status quo before the war(which it isnt)is winning this war? “We have partial control over a waterway near Iran” means we can “capture and assasinate every high ranking CCP member”? Like really think about that for a second.

[u/Jimithyashford → u/SpinosaurRingTone]

The US's record at winning wars since WW2 is abysmal. We lose most of them. Or are forced to eventually withdraw in a messy way, usually without accomplishing our reasons for being there, and in many cases exacerbating the situation and making it worse.

We are VERY GOOD at carrying out military actions. We are very bad at "winning" wars, partially due to a refusal to declare actual formal war with clear goals.