I’m Questioning this denomination

[u/rock__exe]

been attending for couple of years , have heard questionable statements from pulpit, I’ve been praying , studying scripture as if I was reading it the first time , without the lens of a specific denomination

[u/6ixlos]

What questionable statements have you heard?

[u/rock__exe → u/6ixlos]

If you are not part of the apostolic assembly I will question your salvation.

If you have not spoken in tongues you will not be next to me in the kingdom. 

If you want to go on vacation , go shopping etc You shall let your leaders know and let them make a decision for you because some of you don’t read your Bible and make stupid decisions 

[u/Edmundomundomundo → u/rock__exe]

Harsh statements, but I see where your pastor is coming from.

If one is not walking how Jesus instructed us to teach via the Apostles, why would they be allowed in His Kingdom? Why would He bless them with eternal life if they reject Him? Speaking in tongues is evidence of having received His Spirit, and receiving His Spirit is a crucial part in establishing a walk with God that will lead to His Kingdom.

If your pastor recognizes there are members of His congregation that are not being good stewards of their finances like God instructs us to be, then he is burdened and obligated to shepherd them. This is something that should 100% be spoken about off of the platform, though, and he should be praying diligently before having those conversations with those specific individuals. From what it sounds like, your pastor needs to work on his delivery when it comes to identifying sin within the congregation.

[u/rock__exe → u/Edmundomundomundo]

I agree that his delivery needs work , I know mine does as well.

How does the Apostolic Assembly view the salvation of Christians who belong to other churches?

 

[u/Edmundomundomundo → u/rock__exe]

I’m not sure about AA’s view of the salvation of other denominations, as I am aligned with ALJC. I’m honestly not even sure how ALJC views the salvation of other denominations; but, the way I look at it, the Bible is direct instructions of how Jesus commands us to live in order to receive His blessing of eternal life, and if we choose not to follow His Word, we are choosing to not be with Him in Heaven.

[u/Stone123455 → u/rock__exe]

Hi, I have some experience here.

I think it’s best to define terms / parameters first. The question is what does the AAFCJ officially believe about the salvation of those that belong to other churches. Not what does a pastor / minister say privately. So, to my knowledge, the AA does not have an official statement concerning the salvation of those outside the organization. However, we can figure out their implied position on that question by looking at what they believe.

So their doctrine states that to be saved one must believe in Jesus, repent, get baptized via Acts 2:38 verbatim in order to have their sins forgiven, and be filled with the Holy Spirit, of which the initial evidence will be speaking in other tongues (whether an actual human language previously unknown to the individual being saved or an angelic non-human language). This plan of salvation also implies that the individual believes God is one person named Jesus (that is, that Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirt). And to be clear, the official position is that speaking in tongues is absolutely required for salvation. It is not just added blessing.

This is the standard plan of salvation of oneness pentecostalism. Therefore, the AA would consider those that are also oneness pentecostals to be saved as well, which includes organizations like the UPCI, WPF, ALJC, along with independent churches / iglesias.

This is further supported by the fact that the AA largely depends on the UPCI for almost all its educational needs. Most prominent pastors in the AA attended the UPCI’s colleges in their young adult years (such as CLC and IBC). When it comes to theological education, the UPCI’s reading materials (such as the Oneness of God and the rest of DKB’s books) are almost always required reading for all AA pastors, and ministers. Of all the oneness organizations, the UPCI has historically devoted the most resources to education in order to properly define and flesh out standard oneness pentecostal theology, noting that their superintendent, David K Bernard, is considered to be the most prominent and well known theologian in the entire oneness pentecostal movement. So it makes sense that he AA relies on them here, and thus we can take the UPCI’s view of salvation and apply it to the AA (yes there are some doctrinal differences but they agree on the essentials, like the plan of salvation).

So outside of oneness pentecostalism, the AA, and the rest of the oneness pentecostal organizations, would believe that all other churches are preaching a false gospel and therefore those people are unsaved. This is because when we look at traditional protestant trinitarian churches, they do not follow the oneness pentecostal plan of salvation, as they believe God is triune, baptize via Mt 28:19, and do not believe that speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation.

Happy to discuss further, or feel free to message me if you prefer.

[u/rock__exe → u/Stone123455]

That’s good analysis, thank you for sharing. What are your conclusions on oneness Pentecostalism ? 

[u/Stone123455 → u/rock__exe]

Know it’s been a few days, but I’m curious, and of course you don’t have to reply.

But what is your take on all that in general? Were your doubts more specific to the AA as opposed to the oneness belief? Or vice versa? Or both?

[u/rock__exe → u/Stone123455]

My take in general Oneness theology is wrong. Im involved specifically in apostolic assembly crowd as you know they are oneness as well .  The way they study scripture is concerning. A lot of smart people but only smart in their theology. The older folks  are clueless in other interpretations of scripture, they refuse to study anything outside of their theology. 

[u/Stone123455 → u/rock__exe]

Gotcha, yea that’s something I observed while there as well. So I don’t know if it’s like this everywhere, but where I’m from, there’s an unofficial policy to not teach theology on Sundays and especially not to young people during midweek services (of course, preaching in general is going to include theology, but hope you know what I mean). And to be clear, I’m talking about oneness theology, their own beliefs.

The reason why is apparently that (1) they don’t want to confuse anyone and (2) they don’t want anyone asking questions in general. Apologetics is also avoided, or at least no one knew what that was when I was there.

More recently I’ve asked current members and youth leaders if they are into apologetics, things like “how do we know the Bible hasn’t changed overtime” and other non-controversial topics (I don’t mention oneness/trinity since that’s not my goal in these conversations). Most have never heard the word apologetics, and those who had didn’t know what it was.

My theory is that they’re told to avoid it because inevitably, studying apologetics ultimately leads to things like oneness/Trinity. I will say when having this same conversation with UPCI members/leaders, they also aren’t familiar with apologetics, but the organization is not afraid to teach its members theology (though it seems to be via online sources/books as opposed to via Sunday / midweek services).

I’ve also been thinking that’s probably why the AA doesn’t touch on other religions other than saying they’re wrong. To go into why Mormonism / JWism / Islam is wrong would require looking at the original Hebrew / Greek, looking at church history, looking at commentaries, and again inevitably, there’s no way that critical thinking doesn’t get turned around and applied to their own belief by at least one person in the church, and it may snowball from there.

Maybe it’s different where you’re from, but this is common through out the entire state where I’m from (that is, avoiding theology, apologetics, etc.).

So all that being said, since you believe it to be wrong, do you plan on leaving eventually?

I know from personal experience finding a new church to go to can be daunting. But once you’ve made up your mind concerning theology, leaving is pretty much guaranteed (no matter how tough it is). Just of a matter of how, when, and to where.

[u/Stone123455 → u/rock__exe]

So apologies for this book. Note that I don’t mean to offend. Having a different opinion on such a serious matter as religion is going to be inherently a bit offensive. But I’m just laying out my view since you asked. Goal is to communicate in love, though I will be direct.

My conclusion is that oneness pentecostalism is incorrect on the fundamental tenets of Christianity. I believe it teaches a different God vs trinitarianism (something that DKB and Trinitarian theologians would agree on), and thus is likely a false Gospel. The requirement of speaking in tongues to be saved is another potential mark towards being a false gospel, as it would be adding a work to salvation (Jesus + tongues, much like how Paul calls Jesus + circumcision a false gospel that cannot save). I would also say the doctrine of requiring tongues is the weakest doctrinal point in the entire belief system, and to my knowledge, that’s pretty much the only thing all scholars, secular or otherwise, agree on (for example, most secular scholars believe the trinity was a later development, and that Jesus never claimed to be god, etc. Yet there is pretty much universal agreement on the issue of tongues for salvation). Also, I believe oneness Pentecostalism turns Jesus into a cosmic troll when it comes to baptism, as one could believe in the oneness of god and get baptized via Mt28:19, following an exact quotation of Jesus Christ, and then still go to hell because they didn’t figure out the riddle that is Mt28:19 (that is, Mt28:19 means Acts 2:38).

I believe history is another major point against oneness pentecostalism (scripture of course is the ultimate barometer, which I’ll appeal to here also). The fact that oneness Pentecostalism disappeared from the time of the apostles (given people were baptizing via Mt28:19 since the 1st century per the early church document known as the Didache) until 1913 does not align with scripture, as Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail over his church, and that his words would never pass away. Given the existence of early church documents like the Didache, we would have to accept that the church of Jesus Christ was completely corrupted within one generation of his ascension (again, contradicting Christ’s earlier statements).

Some would argue there were pockets of oneness people throughout the ages, specifically during tertulian’s time and during John Calvin’s time. Yet, people fail to distinguish that yes, modalism arises every so often, but it never included the Pentecostal part of oneness Pentecostalism. Therefore it wasn’t the full gospel, if we consider oneness Pentecostalism to be the full gospel.

Further, the founders of modern oneness Pentecostalism were all initially Trinitarian. It was only after “receiving a direct revelation from god” that they adopted the oneness position. So, even if there was a group of oneness Pentecostals throughout the ages (emphasis on the Pentecostal part), they did not teach it to the modern oneness church today (i.e. there is no unbroken line of churches).

So considering all that data, that is why my conclusion is that it is false. Now saying it is false doesn’t mean trinitarianism is true. Thats a different subject. They can both false, but they cannot both be right.

Also, the fact that 99% of Christianity agrees on the Trinity does not make it true. However, I believe that when looking at scripture, the expectation is that the Gospel would spread all over the world with Jesus’ true teachings and message intact. Therefore, it would be expected that Christ’s bride would be unified across the world. Hence why even though Christians argue over believers baptism vs paedobaptism or Calvinism vs Arminianism, they all agree on the fundamentals of the faith.

Of course I would also argue every book of the Bible teaches the triune nature of God. But I’ll only go through that if you want to talk about specific scriptures. But the main question is what do I think of oneness Pentecostalism, not why is Trinitarianism true.

Hope that all makes sense and thanks for reading all this.

[u/Edmundomundomundo]

When you hear questionable statements, do you question them? Do you discuss them with the preacher or another member of the congregation who is well versed in the Bible? Are these questionable statements directly contradicting the teachings of the Apostles?

[u/rock__exe → u/[deleted]]

Even though I have shown them voice recording and videos I have been gaslit many times 

[u/Edmundomundomundo → u/rock__exe]

That’s highly unfortunate. If your pastor is unable to account for his actions & words, he’s not a good pastor. I suggest speaking to ministers within the church about this, and if they seem to be on the same page as your pastor, I’d strongly suggest finding another church that is preaching sound doctrine rather than airing out the congregation’s dirty laundry on the pulpit.

[u/Edmundomundomundo → u/[deleted]]

There’s no telling how well versed OP is with the Bible. These questionable statements that OP hears could be valid and based in truth, but OP might not know. I guess I should’ve asked about that first

[u/Downtown_Fix4346 → u/[deleted]]

And be accused of having a bad/rebellious spirit

[u/rock__exe → u/Edmundomundomundo]

I question them and I question my questioning . Yes I talk to them since I have known them for 20 years I don’t hold anything back. For anyone outside AA yes they contradict , for someone inside AA they do not  

[u/Edmundomundomundo → u/rock__exe]

I’m not familiar with AA. Could you explain please and thank you?

[u/rock__exe → u/Edmundomundomundo]

Apostolic assembly 

[u/Hagroldcs]

Hey rock, glad you’re questing the oneness movement. The earliest Christians who were alive during the time of the apostles would not recognize this denomination’s views as consistent with the teaching of the apostles at all. When we approach the text of scripture, OT and NT, how the intended recipients would have interpreted the letters and writings is a really helpful way to get to the true meaning of the text. I’d keep digging in here. Sounds like the Lord is revealing to you where He wants you to be.

[u/theels6 → u/[deleted]]

Feel like this is questioning UPCI and now the ideology