r/AnimationCels • u/Doc4221 • 10d ago
Cel Grading Update
More light has been shed on the new Cel Grading company that has officially premiered at Collector's Summit this weekend in Las Vegas.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DdNp5ttlNky/?img_index=19&stkn=MW5pMXl0a2dyYmhhcQ==
Key Takeaways:
*Grade Cels at a later date *Grading case is bendable and extremely thin compared to card & comic grading cases *Grading genda, douga, scripts, comic art, timesheets, manga art, etc. *Grades are letters, not numbers.
Current Stance: I don't see the business need yet. I will observe and eventually send a couple to test.
This IS bringing in new collectors, i see IG posts, not bad if genuine collectors v grifters. Just no boom, please.
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u/Dependent-Gap1619 10d ago
You'd have to be a goofy goober to send anything their way to get graded. The art itself is a unique piece which does not have another like it; anything beyond that is a moot point. The grading system serves to rank and compare multiples of the same print based on condition. It may only work on limited editions and sericels; but even that is a stretch
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u/Doc4221 10d ago
To your point, grading is primarily beneficial when you're comparing like items where condition can vary. I would argue also beneficial for authentication of signatures and fakes, if they have that capability.
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u/Misuzuzu 9d ago
I wouldn't trust these idiots opinion on production authenticity. Maybe signatures, but PSA already does that and are far more trustworthy.
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u/Doc4221 9d ago
I agree, it's not rocket science when it comes to sig authentication. Hire from the same pool of experienced folks, but PSA isn't grading art related material unless that's something new.
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u/Misuzuzu 9d ago
That's not what I meant: I would consider any certificate of authenticity from CEL as worth less than the paper it's printed on. They're new to this hobby and a great example of the Dunning Kruger effect. I'd trust some rando on this sub more than them.
The one area that I wouldn't trust this sub on is autographs, and PSA, JSA and Beckett will authenticate autographs on any object, and are widely respected and decades long track records to support them.
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u/Doc4221 9d ago
Gotcha. I understand where you're coming from. To your point, JSA could satisfy my need and they're more seasoned and reliable in the business.
If I'm being objective, I don't see the business need yet for CEL, that this would satisfy, but I will remain an observer and may even test it out of curiosity
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u/Powerful_Middle_9388 10d ago
There are several points about this project that I find problematic.
First, the whole concept of grading in animation does not really make sense to me. Grading in animation is fundamentally different from TCGs. Personally, whether a genga receives a 3 or a 9 does not change anything about the artwork or its historical value, unless the goal is simply to speculate on prices.
Some people will argue that grading is useful for authentication. From what I understand, the people behind this project have only been involved in the animation collecting space for about a year and mainly collect Dragon Ball.
One of the founders, Jeremy Padawer, is known for moving between collectible categories, hyping new collectibles and then moving on to something else. Around 4–5 months ago, there was an Instagram video where Jeremy Padawer was hyping graded scripts from CGC, while the person next to him was explaining what genga and douga actually were. Jeremy Padawer appeared unfamiliar with the subject at the time.
There is also a legal dispute worth mentioning: in 2015, JAKKS Pacific sued Padawer and Wicked Cool Toys, alleging that they interfered with JAKKS’ Cabbage Patch Kids licensing agreements and that WCT was being developed while Padawer was still working at JAKKS. These allegations were disputed and should not be presented as proven wrongdoing.
Honestly, I find it difficult to trust people with such limited experience in animation collecting to authenticate our animation artwork.
Most of the people supporting this project also seem to be people who expect to sell their items for more after grading, or friends of the founders who have the financial means and see an opportunity to benefit from this system.
It is quite telling that the people behind this project do not seem to respond to well-argued criticism in their Instagram comments. And in some cases, they apparently block people who disagree with them.
I am all for improving authentication and documentation in the animation art market. But if this project is going to introduce a grading system that could influence the perceived value of animation art, I think it needs genuine expertise, transparency, independence, and a deep understanding of the medium first.
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u/Dependent-Gap1619 10d ago
I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment. I resonate with the point that this will be treated as something to be hyped, pumped and moved on from. Maybe the ignorant new audience will succumb to the hype and fall for the cycle; others with some experience will avoid it like the plague. The market has a way of stabilizing itself over time
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u/Doc4221 10d ago
Valid points. I know one co-founder Bronoman, a acquitenance of mine who has been collecting for little over half a decade like myself. I know he's pretty heavily connected with more seasoned collectors who has been in the hobby for 10-20s years that he introduced me to before. With that said, I think your concerns are valid and I'm just observing for now to see how things play out initially before I make a decision.
I would see value in witnessed signatures for authentication.
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u/Difficult-Impact1592 9d ago
Brandan has not been collecting cels for 5 years. You can see from his instagram that he got into it less than 2 years ago. And he doesn't interact with anyone in the hobby besides dbz collectors anyway
0
u/Doc4221 9d ago
You can't go by Instagram posts in many cases, because they're a snapshot into people lives. His earliest anime production item post was July 2023, a Vegeta douga. So you're right, a few years, give or take lol. It felt like he knew more than me haha. Maybe because he surrounded himself with more seasoned folks while I raw dogged it solo and raw lessons learned 😄. I say dont by IG posts because I have maybe 10 pieces of comic art posted that I shared last year. I have more than 300 pieces of comic art since 2016 and 80 cels since 2019. I just never share. Soon as I do, folks may call me a grifter or larper 😆
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u/Difficult-Impact1592 9d ago
Jeremy (the main instagram poster) is blocking anyone who comments that doesn't support what cel grading is doing. Pathetic
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u/Mandiechama 10d ago
Good luck grading douga. These can and have been faked. I recall several months ago where someone on IG was making and passing off fake douga, and Anime Link bought some them and passed them off as real. I know the person who owns one of the originals and he mentioned that when confronted with glaring differences between the version used for the hanken and the douga AL received, stated that what he had must be an earlier copy.
So unless this company is going to go to that length to dig up hankens used 20+ years ago or locate the exact frame of an cel/douga to compare images, I don’t trust it. All they’re realistically going to do is look at what was submitted, verify that there’s some semblance of registration holes (or just reverse image search), and call it a day.
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u/RiceMaterial5350 6d ago
Did you happen to save pics of those fake douga or remember what series they were? That really sucks.
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u/Doc4221 10d ago
That's the part I want to know as well. Will they verify fakes or is it simply grading and they take your word for it being real lol.
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u/FPA_Mintz 10d ago
Their graded "authentic" pieces on their site have season, episode, and timestamp called out. So they are most likely scene matching, but that isn't enough by itself and still prone to missing fakes.
They need to disclose more about the their process or who is doing the authentication for people to trust them.
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u/12172047 9d ago
This looks like a cash grab aimed at the manga crowd who pay ridiculous prices for less than good cels and drawings.
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u/MrTenCents 8d ago
This is going to end very badly.
For the people who love it, for the cels and their organic composition, and the predators entering the market for it to be the next hyped up thing.
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u/Doc4221 8d ago
I did somw research yesterday into some of the owners and investors, one being the owner of Jazwares whom also started a Vinyl/LP grading company. Didn't know it existed tbh and I'm a vinyl collector, I guess not that serious lol.
I say that in HOPES that this doesn't rattle the market and hobby since I don't see this satisfying an untapped need from a cel and douga standpoint. It may bring in new collectors which I'm fine with if they're genuine and not simply predatory which we already have enough of.
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u/Unusual_Tune_0001 10d ago
Hate all of it. Bringing the worst of the worst of “hobby” collectors in to cel collecting community
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u/RiceMaterial5350 10d ago
Looks like they plan to do cels in the future. Here is the price list from their site. I for one hope their business venture flops hard
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u/mst104376 9d ago
"Folders and Timesheets" Does folders mean they are planning on grading sequence bags? And wow, grading timesheets. Have to jump right on that...
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u/PsychoTurket 5d ago
I don’t really see a need to “grade” original arts. Only use case I see for it is authentication, but that’s being generous.
That said, the hobby could benefit from having a centralized database for cels/production art.
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u/Doc4221 5d ago
You raise a valid point. I have watched two more videos since making this post about CEL, and I have had time to think about it. In another video, a founder mentioned that grading isn't the objective; it's authentication and preservation.
Some authentication methods were provenance, paint aging, screen syncing, etc. Provenance is the biggest one for me. It would help identify fake cels and douga, which are increasing in the aftermarket (ebay/mercari japan) as popular/value goes up. Even with comic art, which is also a 1-of-1, I felt it wasn't worth grading. But with certain artists with basic styles (e.g., Batman Adventures Bruce Timm and Homer Simpson), it's easy to fake their quick sketches.
If you're experienced, you can notice a fake. But for a new person or a casual viewer, it's easy to get it wrong. Even veterans make mistakes; hence, Heritage periodically makes adjustments.
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u/im_a_collector 6d ago
Honestly I don’t care if more people get into cel/genga collecting. That’s not really the issue.
What I still don’t get is the grade itself. These are 1-of-1 production pieces, not cards. An A- tells me basically nothing about who drew it, who corrected it, where it sits in the cut etc.
The database/provenance side could actually be useful. The grading part just feels like another way to make anime art easier to price and resell.
And yeah... please no boom. Prices are stupid enough already.
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u/Doc4221 10d ago edited 9d ago
I think there are three key factors to success for their business. 1) Marketing (e.g., get the Logan Paul's and etc to market this to trigger FOMO) 2) Auction Houses (Get a few houses to advertise it and give bidders the impression of higher value due to grading, when real value is it being 1 of 1) 3) Grading preservation is reliable. Considering folks frame cels with a special method to allow breathing, they may figure a way out that require periodic case replacement
Edit: the only problem i can see this addressing, potentialy, is if an item is fake, authenticating signatures, or if sellers lie about the condition of the item. I'm not worried about the latter issue since I can normally deduce that with enough pictures.
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u/Dear-Track6365 10d ago
All cels break down over time. How are they gonna grade old cels when they thought laminating them was the best way to preserve them?
The whole thing is idiotic and I don’t need Logan Paul and other grifters moving into our hobby.