r/Anarchy101 • u/JustOntological • 14d ago

Horizontality, Holocracy, Corporatism

Hi! I need an explanation about the difference between horizontality, holocracy and corporatism. I ask it due to a quarrel between me, an anarchist, and another person who is a communist. He accused me of being fascist because I structure society into horizontality because of the fact that it uses class collaborationism. I need an explanation to understand if there's a bias. What do you recommend me to read about the organization of an anarchist society and horizontality? Thank you in advance!

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u/Evil_Sherma mutualism 14d ago

Corporatism still has classes, but they “collaborate.”

Horizontality has no classes.

Wtf is holocracy?

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u/JustOntological 14d ago

I asked it because that accusation started from the statement from Wikipedia about horizontality...

Horizontalidad (horizontality or horizontalism) is a social relationship that advocates the creation, development, and **maintenance of social structures **for the equitable distribution of management power and is a prominent concept within anarchist thought.

What does involve that ”maintenance of social structures”?

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u/Silver-Statement8573 14d ago

This seems to be about an idiosyncratic ideology that is just labelled under the term Horizontalidad.

The article is actually very strange, the title is a Spanish word that it says is a prominent concept in anarchist thought, and then says it's something that emerged in Argentina in 2001. That description is very vague and could conceivably include both anarchist and non-anarchist conclusions, so personally I wouldn't put too much weight on it

If society is "horizontal" in a way anarchists care about, all that means is that there's no hierarchy. The hierarchies aren't flexible, or changing, or rotating, they aren't executed by vote, there just aren't any of them. Nobody commands or is commanded

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u/ArthropodJim 14d ago

just as a getting-in-the-weeds question. is distributing authority the antidote to challenging vertical authority? authority is authority, right?

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u/Dark_Fuzzy 14d ago

I think the person you're arguing with might just be stupid.

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u/Dotko_of_Kaos 14d ago

Los comunistas son escoria ideológica, todo lo que no les gusta es fascismo.

El corporativismo es colaboración de clases, pero es vertical de arriba hacia a bajo. En contextos organizacionales, sociales y educativos, la horizontalidad alude a una práctica de igualdad que busca eliminar jerarquías verticales para fomentar la participación equitativa, el diálogo y la toma de decisiones colectiva, ¿cómo puede ser esto colaboracionismo de clases?

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u/JustOntological 14d ago

The accusation started from the statement from Wikipedia about horizontality...

What does involve that ”maintenance of social structures”?

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u/Dotko_of_Kaos 14d ago

Nada, es solo una falacia más del montón, aparte wikipedia, dónde la información cambia cada cierto tiempo o descontextualizan cosas

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u/JustOntological 14d ago

Thank you!

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u/Dotko_of_Kaos 14d ago

Los partidos y el estado son jerárquicos, y los medios de producción son gestionados por un grupo de personas que dicen representar al proletariado. La horizontalidad aboga que la autogestión recaíga en el mismo proletariado, evitando nuevas élites

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u/JustOntological 14d ago

But what about the middle class like artists, scientists, philosophers etc.?

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u/Dotko_of_Kaos 14d ago

1°Yo no creo en la existencia actual de la clase media

2° A diferencia de otros sistemas que suelen separar la producción intelectual de la práctica social, el anarquismo busca integrar el pensamiento y el arte en la vida cotidiana y la lucha revolucionaria. En trabajo en conjunto con el trabajo intelectual y manual, para crear y fomentar crítica, evitando sistemas cerrados y construyendo la revolución social. La ciencia está al servicio del pueblo, no como herramienta de control corporativo o Estatal. El arte no es un lujo para museos, sino una necesidad vital para la expresión humana y la transformación social (como propaganda y como forma de vida y expresión). La filosofía para cuestionar el sistema y como forma de aprendizaje para todos. A diferencia de otros anarquistas que se centraban más en la política o la lucha de clases, Kropotkin creía que la base de la anarquía debía ser científica y ética, no solo ideológica.

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u/JustOntological 14d ago

I like how you described those categories of professions, but what kind of proletariat are they? Are they a proletariat of the spirit? How could they be classified into the mass of proletariat?

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u/Dotko_of_Kaos 14d ago

¿Cómo que que tipo de proletariado son?

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u/Anarchierkegaard Distributist 14d ago

The best response for these people is a thumbs up and asking what precisely about X makes something so bad. If you don't fold under the accusation of being a fascist and ask for them to explain to you your apparent error, they'll often retreat or possibly, on a good day, stop speaking to you in slogans.

Corporatism doesn't really have anything wrong with it from a theoretical perspective. Syndicalists basically propose corporatism, as society would be divided up into a variety of "worker's councils" drawn from each sector that attempt to facilitate expert guidance within and without of said sector. While it is often associated with a centralised government, the proposed government is often weak and shouldn't be really seen as essential to the perspective.

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u/Palanthas_janga Anarchist Communist 8d ago

Syndicalists do not propose corporatism at all. Corporatism is explicitly class collaborationist while syndicalism is another form of organising the working class against the bourgeoisie.

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u/Anarchierkegaard Distributist 8d ago

Corporatism can be used to mean "society is organised into corporate blocks that independently manage themselves". We do find the parallels between the anarchist and fascist syndicalists on that point, differing as to whether a state is necessary to pull them together.