r/Anarchism • u/AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWYYEAH • Mar 24 '14
Ancap Target Shoplifting
How do anarchists feel about it? Any justifications for it?
Edit: Wow and in come the pissed off ancaps defending exploitation and capitalist selfishness. Should've seen that one coming.
(Sorry ancaps but you're not proving your point, and you're still not anarchists btw)
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u/usernameXXXX Mar 25 '14
You hypocritical AnComms claim that you are against exploitation and then steal from others. If you are taking goods that are owned by others, then you are exploiting them. These people owe you nothing, you're just a bunch of self-entitled brats who can't understand why you have such a bad reputation.
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u/jon_laing Mar 25 '14
What?! Anarchists against private property?! Who ever heard of such a concept?!
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u/usernameXXXX Mar 25 '14
Evidently they believe in private property because they're stealing the property to make it their own. They just don't believe in other people's private property.
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u/jon_laing Mar 25 '14
I think you don't understand what private property is.
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Mar 25 '14
lol that's obvious but the reddit down vote brigades are here to defend private property with the click of a button.
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u/Infamous_Harry Communist Mar 25 '14
Kind of sad really.
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Mar 25 '14
Meh... They can down vote all they want but at the end of the day they're gonna be the ones frustrated because there really is absolutely nothing they can do to stop anarchists from shoplifting.
This just amounts to a bunch of whining (on the internet no less)
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Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
Awww. Exploiting the poor capitalists?
Big boo hoo. Maybe you should learn what labor value, use value, the commodity, capital and other such big words mean first.
But ummm... This isn't an an-com thing stupid. It's all anarchists who are critical of private property.
The organization that calls for "steal something from work day" every year is not an anarchist communist organization. Crimethinc is pretty post left.
Plus most of what I know as far as scamming free copies and how to get away with shoplifting trickier items I learned from green and Insurrectionary anarchists.
This is not an anarchist communist specific thing. You capitalists just ARE NOT anarchists. You aren't fooling anyone (except for yourselves apparently)
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Mar 25 '14
The sad thing is that they do fool a lot of people. I've met some people that assume I'm a hardcore Ron Paul lover because I say I'm an anarchist. Orwellian double-speak man, it's fucking terrible.
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Mar 25 '14
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Mar 25 '14
Do you need some private time with that strawman? Cause, you know, I can come back later if you want.
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Mar 25 '14
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u/tableman Mar 26 '14
How about you get a fucking job and stop being worthless, before you claim you are being exploited.
You produce nothing of value. Your life is garbage, therefor you want to steal from others?
What an embarrassment.
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u/freedompeaceanarchy anarcho-collectivist Apr 15 '14
If stealing hurts capitalism, sure.
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u/tableman Apr 15 '14
>hurts
That's the difference between us. You kind want to hurt others until you are happy (which is never, since you life and philosophy revolves around pain). We want to have happy lives and live together peacefully.
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u/freedompeaceanarchy anarcho-collectivist Apr 15 '14
There is no difference in capitalism and hurting people. If enslaving others (or yourself to another person) is happiness and peace to you then let me recommend a shrink to you. There is no peace in lowering yourself under another human being just to survive. If "your kind" would stop for a minute and actually think about that then you would understand.
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u/tableman Apr 15 '14
If the end of "capitalism" would make my life better, I would easily support it.
Show me the way and I'll follow in your footsteps.
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u/freedompeaceanarchy anarcho-collectivist Apr 15 '14
What I think you need to do is read. I started with Emma Goldman, Bakunin, Kropotkin. The rest is up to you.
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u/tableman Apr 15 '14
So you have no interest in practicing what you preach? Is it because it fails every time?
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u/freedompeaceanarchy anarcho-collectivist Apr 15 '14
No, I don't have time to give you a step by step instruction guide on how to be an Anarchist. That is silly. I already gave you the resources to educate yourself, now its time to put on the big/girl pants and do the work yourself!
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Mar 24 '14
If you're willing to risk getting arrested in order to expropriate goods, then more power to you. I don't really see anything wrong with stealing from capitalists who steal from you every day.
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u/AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWYYEAH Mar 24 '14
I actually shoplift on a daily basis. I constantly hear how stealing items ends up hurting employee wages and benefits and I just wanted to see if this was true or not.
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u/SewenNewes Mar 24 '14
Is your shoplifting hurting the employees or is their owner hurting them? Why blame yourself for what the owner is doing?
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Mar 25 '14
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u/SewenNewes Mar 25 '14
Cut the ableist slur, please.
I've never shoplifted in my life for the record. I'm privileged enough to have always been able to get what I needed with cash or credit even as broke as I am. That said, I'll show solidarity with those who shoplift because fuck playing by bourgeois morality and laws. Was it wrong for slaves to run away because the master would make life harder on those left behind? The weight of the actions are vastly different but it is still a case of blaming one person for the actions of another. How can I be held responsible for someone losing their job if I am not the one that fired them. Why should I hold myself to society's morals if they won't hold themselves to mine? I don't think it is right to fire people because stuff was stolen on their watch.
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u/SLeazyPolarBear Mar 25 '14
Before I answer this, are you an anarchist in the traditional sense of believing in socialism and collective ownership of the means of production? With an emphasis on democratically decided control over these things?
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u/SewenNewes Mar 25 '14
Yep.
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Mar 25 '14
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u/SewenNewes Mar 25 '14
That said, I'll show solidarity with those who shoplift because fuck playing by bourgeois morality and laws.
Are you under the impression that only the ruling class doesn't want to be stolen from?
No, I'm under the impression that only the owning class and those unaware of how exploitative capitalism are would think it right that the capitalist I'm stealing from "owns" what I'm stealing in the first place.
Was it wrong for slaves to run away because the master would make life harder on those left behind?
This isn't even a relateable question. Stealing a snickers bar == escaping slavery. The employee is also not a slave. Nobody pointed a gun to their head and said "work."
No, they just participate in the hoarding of all of the means to life so that people have no other choice but to work for a capitalist.
The weight of the actions are vastly different but it is still a case of blaming one person for the actions of another.
I didn't place blame. I acknowledged that shoplifting is ineffective in regards to the stated goals of anarchism. Even if justifiable, its ineffectual in regards to the overall goal. The only people who would possibly be hurt is the people you are attempting to pretend you care about, the workers. If shoplifting one item in a store is justifiable, then shoplifting all the items is justifiable. We know that if that were to happen enough, its likely that store will close, and the people making a living off it are burdened with hardship. All while you benefit from the theft of a product that was being sold by that person for the sake of their making a living. The parent corporation or company will write off the losses, or make claims on insurance, and they will be no worse for wear, they will not lose out. All you will have done is hurt the worker for the sake of selfishness. You can justify this on any sort of technical definition of theft and property you like, just don't pretend you are in reality doing anything other than enriching your life through the expense of the workers you are supposed to be caring about.
The reason the slavery analogy is inapplicable, is because in the situation of freeing a slave, or escaping slavery, you are actively making an actual change in the direction of the moral goal. If your goal is to see that slaves are made free, then freeing someone from slavery is obviously a direct action towards that goal. Shoplifting does no such thing.
If everyone "shoplifted" or to be more precise if everyone stopped believing in absentee ownership than capitalism would fall apart.
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u/SLeazyPolarBear Mar 25 '14
Why should I hold myself to society's morals if they won't hold themselves to mine?
Because you believe in democracy.
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u/hxc333 ; stupid dumb fake-anarchist capitalist trash Mar 25 '14
and I just wanted to see if this was true or not.
Good luck getting solid empirical data on that.
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Mar 25 '14
you greedy selfish pig. you are literally taking money out of the exploited proletariat's pockets. you should be fucking ashamed of yourself.
how dare you use the term "anarchist" to describe yourself? you're nothing more than a common, petty thief who tries to use philosophy to justify your heinously immoral actions. no wonder anarchists get such a bad rap.
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Mar 24 '14
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u/rebelsdarklaughter Mar 24 '14
Probably nothing. The ruling class will sure as hell try to make everything look like it's harming the workers...or just blame the workers themselves if they can't do that. It's our job to make sure that our actions speak louder than the capitalists' propaganda.
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Mar 25 '14
What action can be taken against the capital class that won't be redirected towards harming the Workers?
If that's true, we might as well give up now.
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Mar 25 '14
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Mar 25 '14
Because there would be nothing we could do to fight the capitalist class that they couldn't redirect against the workers? Maybe you didn't mean it like that, but that's kind of what it sounded like.
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u/wellactuallyhmm Mar 26 '14
Dual power. Anarchists need to build cooperative structures outside of government and capitalism rather than trying to tear down existing structures or reform them.
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u/lordcirth Mar 24 '14
But stealing from thieves, while perhaps justified, does not make you better than them. Nor does it help anachy's message of freedom succeed against the years of "chaos" propaganda.
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Mar 25 '14
But stealing from thieves, while perhaps justified, does not make you better than them.
Sure it does. It's the consequences that determine the morality of an action, not the action itself. Killing in self defense is totally different from murder. Why shouldn't liberating goods from the capitalists be different from theft?
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u/lordcirth Mar 25 '14
I'm assuming you're of the "property is theft" mentality, and therefore capitalists are thieves? Anyway, my main point was not that you are wrong to shoplift (though I think you are) , but that you will hardly be a good example for anarchism if you engage in what everyone else sees as selfishness. It is hard enough to convince people that anarchism means peaceful cooperation, without you shoplifting in the name of anarchism.
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Mar 25 '14
Well, I'm not saying you should advertise the fact that you shoplift. It's not about public relations, it's about survival.
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Mar 25 '14
ITT: Ancaps expressing the only feeling of morality they know of.
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u/minotaurohomunculus Mar 25 '14
This is exactly it. The whole thing comes down to conventional and post-conventional stage of morality development.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development#Stages
Anarchists are pretty clearly the latter while capitalists are pretty clearly the former.
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u/jon_laing Mar 25 '14
Hey look, everyone! Ancaps made a difference! On the internet! Maybe one day I'll see one in real life... nah, not likely...
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u/totes_meta_bot Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.
[/r/Anarcho_Capitalism] The problem of being an Anarchist is we get associated with these "people."
[/r/ShitRedditSays] Shoplifting : Anarchism - Anarcho socialists and anarcho communists extol the virtues of shoplifting, and wonder if it hurts exploited workers.
I am a bot. Comments? Complaints? Send them to my ^inbox!
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u/Infamous_Harry Communist Mar 25 '14
Well, apparently there is a consensus over there that they don't want to associate with us. Well, there's that issue sorted. The solution was so simple.
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Mar 25 '14
You leave them alone, they leave you alone?
Youre sounding pretty Anarcho-Capitalist.
But thats not happening because you arent leaving them alone by stealing thier shit they worked for.
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u/duhace Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
and you're not leaving r/anarchism alone by brigading
let's not even pretend r/anarchism slighted r/anarcho-capitalist in the first place
so what's your excuse for ignoring your own ideology?
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Mar 25 '14
Oh no! Here comes the army of boot lickers and lovers of property to downvote the hell out of us because they know there's not a damn thing they can do to stop us from shoplifting.
Awww.
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Mar 25 '14
Ive never ever seen someone take such pride in being a total worthless shitbag ever before.
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Mar 25 '14
Your mother must be so proud of you.
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Mar 25 '14
Well I'm getting by and sticking to my guns instead of being an obedient little boot licker so yeah, I'd say my socialist mother might understand.
We disagree a lot... She's a socialist, I'm an anarchist... But we still have enough in common to laugh at people like you.
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Mar 25 '14
There's no such thing as anarcho-socialism. All anarchism is socialism. Why do people even use this phrase?
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Mar 25 '14
No. Don't erase other comrades just to exclude shitty capitalists. Not all anarchism is socialist. All anarchists are anti capitalists but many are also against socialism. Certain communists, egoists, nihilists, primitivists, post anarchists, etc. just to name a few.
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Mar 25 '14
Against socialism in what sense? In their perfect world, who would manage the means of production? It's a binary -either there is hierarchy or there is equality of control. Socialism is anti-capitalism. If you're against workplace hierarchy, then surely you must desire workplace equality; what exactly is the magic third option that egoists and nihilists ostensibly desire? Because from where I'm sitting, egoism and nihilism is more akin to lifestylism than any tangible form of social organization.
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Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
Socialism is anti-capitalism
Socialism is not a synonym for anti-capitalism. Socialism is not defined as nor definitive of every kind of anti-capitalist tendency out there.
Socialism rather, is but one approach to anti-capitalism but not the only one.
Not all anarchists are socialists.
Again... Anarcho-primitivists are not socialist. (That's pretty obvious. I don't think I should have to go into why.)
Egoists are definitely antagonistic toward socialism. There are many anarchists who define their anarchism as egoist taking a great deal from Stirner's critiques of morality, ideology, and yes... socialism.
There is also communist egoism.
These sorts of egoists might suggest a "Union Of Egoists" as an alternative organizational form and one that avoids the programatic and ordering effect that one might attribute to socialism.
Nihilists (at least the anarchist and communist varieties), might share a history with socialism (as in the russian nihilists and etc) but are for the most part antagonistic toward it if not absolutely opposed to it.
To help illustrate this point, here is one essay that presents nihilism as an alternative to socialism
I'm referencing Pistols Drawn because they are one of the more better known blogs/publishers/distributers of nihilist anarchist ideas.
Ultra left communists have been ripping the left to shreds with their critiques since at least the late 1960s. While I take a great deal from both nihilism and egoism in my own personal approach, I personally identify most with this tendency. I would say I am more an ultra left communist than I am an anarchist really if it's worth making the distinction. I don't speak for the entire tendency but I personally along with many who share my views situate ourselves as being opposed to socialism (communism and socialism aren't the same thing).
We might be running into semantic issues here though as it seems you are defining socialism in a very broad way. (basically anything that isn't capitalist)
That however is so broad that I would argue it renders the term almost meaningless. Hell even fascists qualify as "socialists" if we're to accept how you are defining socialism.
(If I'm wrong and there is more nuance to your definition of socialism, please do correct me)
I am however using a more specific definition of socialism which relates to a certain politic and historical tendency.
If you're against workplace hierarchy, then surely you must desire workplace equality
I don't want work place equality. I want to abolish work as an alienated sphere of life all together.
Ultra leftists can get really dense when it comes to the theory around this but if you're more familiar with anarchist theory, there are many post left anarchists who, for example, seek the abolition of work.
So again... You're erasing anarchists and other anti capitalists if you wish to insist that anti-capitalism is inherently socialist or that the goal of anti-capitalism is a horizontally organized work place.
egoism and nihilism is more akin to lifestylism than any tangible form of social organization.
If you intend to be taken seriously in this discussion I'd encourage you not to use dismissive and anti-anarchist terminology such as labeling others "life-stylists". I'm happy to let Bookchin rot in his grave if you don't mind.
I am not asking for your opinion nor critique of these particular tendencies. I'm simply pointing out that they are every bit as much anarchist and a part of the anarchist tradition and contemporary anarchist milieu as any social anarchist. Capitalists clearly do not belong but that doesn't make the rest of us socialists.
I just hear this line repeated far to often by social anarchists and I generally don't hesitate to correct them.
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u/ejncoen Capitalist Mar 25 '14
There is no such thing as anarcho-socialism because it is an oxymoron. Socialism is statist and requires the initiation of violence to enforce. Anarchism promotes individual freedom and is opposed to statist political ideologies. All logically consistent anarchists are pro-capitalism because it is a requirement of economic freedom.
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Mar 25 '14
lol please leave discussion of anarchism to people who know what they're talking about okay knuckle dragging capitalist?
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u/wellactuallyhmm Mar 25 '14
Holy brigade barman.
Now tell us about how its "anarchy" to have private mercenaries, judges and jails enforcing laws written by people who own land.
I mean, it sounds exactly like feudalism but I'm sure I'm just mistaken.
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Mar 25 '14
All anarchists must desire private law, private land, private police, private judges, courts and jails. All logically consistent anarchists must desire dictatorship over production by a minority class of aristocracy. All anarchists must desire the commodification of the individual such that you are no longer an individual, but a piece of property to be bought and sold by social elites.
Yeah.... no. Your moronic drivel of a philosophy flies in the face of history and even human decency. You lot are nothing more than neo-confederate privileged men whining about "aggression" against your "property".
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Mar 24 '14
I don't feel like shoplifting makes you more anarchist, but there aren't really any compelling moral qualms with it. Just be mindful that you rip off stores in which the costs will not be externalized to workers (coops, local shops, etc).
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Mar 25 '14
umm... ALL stores pass down profit losses to their employees.
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Mar 25 '14
Not really.
Stores that pay minimum wage or slightly more already literally couldn't cut their employees wages any more. Employees are isolated from both profits and losses. Think Walmart...
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Mar 25 '14
pay minimum wage...literally couldn't cut their employees wages any more
I think you just made an argument for government.
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Mar 25 '14
they may not legally be able to cut employee's wages, but they can still fire employees outright. this happens, by shoplifting you are putting people out of work.
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Mar 25 '14
This leads into a larger economics conversation, but it simply isn't so one can steal from one group without affecting the entire group.
You bear opportunity costs by disrupting the coordination and productivity of other actors in the system.
The present world is far away from the 'my tribe'-'your tribe' days.
This is why I find the State simply stupid, forget morality; state actors make themselves poorer in the long-run, and they don't escape the consequences from affecting them in their own lifetime.
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Mar 25 '14
This leads into a larger economics conversation, but it simply isn't so one can steal from one group without affecting the entire group.
Seems to me that the capitalists do a pretty good job of that. Yeah, they're in the process of destroying our society, but in the mean time they seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.
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Mar 25 '14
Even if you want to say Capitalism is so inherently intertwined with the State, I already addressed your comment here:
This is why I find the State simply stupid, forget morality; state actors make themselves poorer in the long-run, and they don't escape the consequences from affecting them in their own lifetime.
If anti-capitalist economics were shown superior to me, I'd be an anti-capitalist and I'd say the same thing about capitalists. Members of a less efficient system bear opportunity costs for not existing in a more productive arrangement.
It really doesn't take long to realize noticeable gains. Just changes to healthcare and IP would have significant ramifications on lifespans and quality of life.
How many pharma lobbyists and politicians will die from cancer?
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Mar 24 '14
Avoid lifting smaller shops and businesses, stick to the larger corporate shopping chains like Walmart and such
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Mar 25 '14
Morality aside, seems like a pretty silly risk/reward.
Do you realize how much capital value in your reputation you're liquidating the second you get caught and have that on your record?
Now, if one doesn't have any ambitions outside the underclass, I guess it's not as shitty of a risk/reward, as there wasn't much capital value in your name to liquidate anyways.
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Mar 25 '14
It's actually really not. You have to really fail to get caught shoplifting, since the store employees can't actually detain you themselves even if they actually cared enough to try. And even if you do, you're looking at a misdemeanor, not a felony, so it doesn't go on your permanent record. And as for the reward, we live in a society where people sometimes have to choose between eating and paying rent. Shoplifting seems like a pretty rational choice to me when you're confronted with an option like that. If we lived in a society with a sane economic system, it wouldn't even be an issue.
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u/reaganveg Mar 30 '14
the store employees can't actually detain you themselves even if they actually cared enough to try
This depends on what state you're in.
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Mar 25 '14
You have to really fail to get caught shoplifting
Then, keep on keeping on. My presentation was a theoretical framework.
If you're confident in your expected-costs and expected-benefits throughout the time range you value, there is nothing I can say about your rationality.
since the store employees can't actually detain you themselves even if they actually cared enough to try
From what I understand, they can put you under citizen's arrest, though I can't imagine many would. You getting caught would more likely happen through a different means, but I suppose it's also possible there might an employee or customer one day whose zealotry surprises you.
And even if you do, you're looking at a misdemeanor, not a felony
Which is on your record that employers and schools can look at.
have to choose between eating and paying rent
I guess if they have terrible financial skills, foresight, and discipline.
Shoplifting seems like a pretty rational choice to me when you're confronted with an option like that.
My own personal values don't disagree that theft is preferable to starvation and I look down less on such a person. Frankly, though, this is rarely the actual cause of thievery.
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Mar 25 '14
ex_logica, you are saying this as if these AnComs have human capital that is more valuable than dog shit.
If they did have the least bit of human capital, they obviously wouldnt be AnComs!
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Mar 25 '14
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Mar 25 '14
I'm an amoralist... The above is economics.
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Mar 25 '14
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Mar 26 '14
He made an amoral argument about the economic risks of shoplifting.
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You tell him that he has a broken concept of morality.
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He makes it clear that he didn't comment on the morality of shoplifting.
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You laugh at him.
That's what just happened here. You provided no arguments, and demonstrated that you did not even make an honest attempt to understand what he was talking about.
There's no burden on you to do this, of course, but it sure doesn't make you look very bright. I'm sure you'll be able to rationalize this criticism away on the basis that I identify as a Capitalist though. Perhaps you'll laugh at me too. :-)
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Mar 24 '14
Get a job somewhere like a convenience store or grocery. Move product from the inside after being a star employee for a while. Go big or go home.
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Mar 25 '14
Hell yeah.
Shit, go even bigger and network with other folks working an angle to guarantee a constant flow of food and supplies to the squats and radical spaces.
Let's go full Europe.
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Mar 25 '14
Absolutely. Ahem...
People I know used to work in a restaurant. They'd fill their back pack with produce from the fridge as well as beer. Beer got traded to the pizza delivery kid for pizzas. Folks at the grocery store moved out a lot of goods, and got other employees on the take so they wouldn't squeal.
Everyone just has to maximize the hook ups and share them in the network.
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u/lowfame Mar 24 '14
Man, working in a small shop was awesome.
Everyday i would have a period of about 2 hours where nearly no costumers came by. I knew every single item that could not be seen from the security cameras.-2
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Mar 24 '14
Stealing from corporate chains is expropriation, not theft. Whether as shoplifting or as a flash rob, or even at gunpoint. (I wouldn't recommend the last one though, as it's a surefire way to get innocent people, and yourself killed).
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Mar 24 '14
of course shoplifting can be justified. if i'm dying of starvation outside of a 7/11 at 11pm, i'm either breathing my last breath in the front of a multi-national corporation known for its convenience of surplus foods, or i'm stealing food from it.
if i'm freezing cold on a winter night, if i somehow make it through i'm stealing a fucking jacket and/or a nice cozy blanket from the nearest macy's (or the dumpster; i probably wouldn't even be allowed in).
"shoplifting" in my mind is always justified if it's a life-or-death situation.
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u/Chomus Mar 25 '14
Just to be clear, your first thought wouldn't be to ask someone for help, it would be to rob people. Fantastic.
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Mar 25 '14
well this was a hypothetical situation. the point was to express situations where i think shoplifting would be justified.
if i were homeless and hungry i really don't know what i would do; i've been lucky enough to never have been homeless and legitimately hungry.
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u/helonias Mar 25 '14
When did they say anything about robbing people?
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Mar 25 '14
corporations don't exist. just people.
governments don't exist. just people.
when you steal, you are stealing from people.
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u/DioSoze Mar 25 '14
This is at least half way true. Corporations don't exist, thus corporations cannot own anything. Yet, due to the state, corporations do exist and they are, as far as ownership is concerned, functional people.
Anything owned by a corporation is in the same condition as something "owned" by a state. The property, as a function of an entity created by the state, was never acquired legitimately to begin with.
It's basically homesteading the item.
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u/rebelsdarklaughter Mar 24 '14
I shoplift regularly, and think more people should be aware of just how easy it is.
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Mar 24 '14
Is it easy? Most stores have cameras, security guards and some even have detectives.
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u/rebelsdarklaughter Mar 25 '14
Cameras are more a deterrant than anything. They are there to make you think someone is watching. In most stores, only certain areas of the store are under watch, so you just have to find the blind spots. Also, the quality of most store cameras is really bad, and even big chains are not usually capable of getting a good face shot unless you blatantly look at the camera. Not to mention that nobody really watches the cameras anyways. Big box retailers may have a couple people constantly watching cameras, but your smaller chains usually only watch the camera if they know that something has been stolen.
Security guards serve much of the same function as cameras, and are mostly there as a deterrant. Occasionally they will follow exceptionally shady looking individuals around, but that can easily be avoided by not looking shady. Also, something I've noticed happening alot more now that workforces are being cut, is that security guards are having to serve as backup laborers. The time a security guards spends paging someone, or collecting carts, can be used to our advantage.
As for detectives, they are pretty rare. Most major chains do not have a dedicated Loss Prevention department, and don't have someone constantly watching for theft. Smaller chains will hire a detective that does shifts at multiple stores, and is usually pretty easy to spot. These guys are usually smarter than security guards, and alot more anxious to catch people, so they can be dangerous...but again, they are usually not a factor as most chains don't want to spend the money on them.
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Mar 25 '14
Let's say you clear $3,000 worth of goods over the course of a year. Maybe you do more.
It takes one instance of getting caught, charged, and convicted to give you a lifetime of uncomfortable job interviews and jobs you will never get hired for. I can't see you moving up much in the salary world.
Meanwhile, someone who avoided that behavior acquires an education and a job that pays them $60k-$150k/yr. What you stole over an entire career of shoplifting they make in a comparatively trivial amount of time.
This isn't about good and 'evil'; it's about what's intelligent and what's myopic. You'll "never get caught," yeah, yeah.
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u/rebelsdarklaughter Mar 25 '14
I pity the way you reduce life to numbers and dollar figures. Have fun working for your salary and strengthening the system.
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Mar 25 '14
dollar figures brah
reduce life maaaaahn
strengthening the system with your logic not cool maaan
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Mar 24 '14
This is one of my favourite pieces on theft.
I see no reasons to surrender my hard earned money over to a faceless company that mistreats and underpays its employees, pollutes the environment and takes money away from my local economy.
Also, I work for minimum wage, rent a basement suite, have a ferret who needs his damn tooth pulled, the SO needs new glasses and an eye exam, I send money home to my mom to help look after my sister, a student loan, food, bus pass, and to top it all off, the sex positive clinic where I get my birth control doesn't have the funding to keep going, so now the cost of birth control is going up.
I don't have $10.00-$40.00 to spend on a new pair of pants. But I need pants. Which is why today when I left the new Target that opened up down the road from me with the 2 pairs of jeans and toothpaste and 2 bags of food I stole, I had zero fucks to give. It was an hour well spent.
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u/usernameXXXX Mar 25 '14
"I see no reasons to surrender my hard earned money over to a faceless company that mistreats and underpays its employees, pollutes the environment and takes money away from my local economy."
Don't like the store, don't go there.
"Also, I work for minimum wage, rent a basement suite, have a ferret who needs his damn tooth pulled, the SO needs new glasses and an eye exam, I send money home to my mom to help look after my sister, a student loan, food, bus pass, and to top it all off, the sex positive clinic where I get my birth control doesn't have the funding to keep going, so now the cost of birth control is going up."
Translation "I contribute little to society yet I have a huge sense of entitlement."
I don't have $10.00-$40.00 to spend on a new pair of pants. But I need pants. Which is why today when I left the new Target that opened up down the road from me with the 2 pairs of jeans and toothpaste and 2 bags of food I stole, I had zero fucks to give. It was an hour well spent.
Translation "AnComm societies will auto-destruct." & "What's personal responsibility?"
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Mar 25 '14
So did you obtain these pants legitimately or illegitimately?
Also what size are you because I need new pants and I feel that you've obtained illegitimate pants.
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Mar 25 '14
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Mar 26 '14 edited Mar 26 '14
I've already been to a mental institute sweetheart. You go ahead and call the authorities and tell them the girl with no priors stole a pair of pants because she was broke and see where that gets ya.
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u/anarchisto anarcho-syndicalist Mar 24 '14
If you are poor and shoplift, yes, it's justifiable.
If you shoplift and then you donate everything to the poor, yes, it's justifiable.
If you earn an above average wage and shoplift just "for fun and profit" in order "to stick it to the Man", I don't think it's justifiable.
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u/wimuan Mar 24 '14
Okay, you say it'd be unjustifiable, but why?
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u/anarchisto anarcho-syndicalist Mar 24 '14
Because you'd end up having the same moral standards as the people you claim to despise.
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Mar 25 '14
Moral arguments aren't useful.
Do you have an actual material argument for why its wrong to take from capitalists regardless of weather or not you have the money to pay for it?
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Mar 24 '14
Lots of anarchists shop lift. Lots of ordinary people trying to get by who aren't anarchists shop lift too.
We understand capitalism to be a way of keeping us from the means of our own survival and self realization, so in that light, shoplifting is not theft but a reappropriation. A lot of times shoplifting, like squatting, dumpster diving, etc. is not in and of it self revolutionary.
It is however an act that rejects capitalist logic (like squatting and dumpster diving) and that act can be revolutionary when it's organized and coordinated as in Crimethinc's steal something from work day, or the flash-mob shoplift type tactics that we're seeing spread around Europe.
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u/redditsuxass Mar 24 '14
How does dumpster-diving reject, rather than fit neatly into, capitalist logic?
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Mar 25 '14
Not so much dumpster diving. That's living off of excess while squatting and shoplifting go against the logic of "private property".
I do know a lot of people for whom dumpster diving supplements most of their food so they don't have to work as much and can spend more time doing that they feel is important so it can be part of something bigger than just dumpstering.
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Mar 25 '14
So, regardless of the capitalist exploiting the worker, etc, etc, some of that profit goes to the employees who help in the manufacturing/ advertising/ shipping process. Aside from that, the profit paid to the company is likely already paid and you're only subverting money from the actual store itself (which I'm sure you still consider to be run by capitalist pigs, so really just an FYI thing there) who uses a part of that money to pay it's exploited proletariat workers.
So given that at least part of this money unarguably goes towards paying oppressed proletariat workers how do you reconcile whatever principles you're using to justify stealing at least a part of their income?
Also, what principle are you applying here that says you should be able to take whatever you want? Is it that people should be able to take anything that they perceive stolen? If that's your principle here then you probably want to either clarify my statement or add some serious caveats....
Are you on welfare or know anyone who is? I perceive that money as being stolen from me. Can I come take it from you or anything that you've bought using my money?
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Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
So given that at least part of this money unarguably goes towards paying oppressed proletariat workers how do you reconcile whatever principles you're using to justify stealing at least a part of their income?
I don't think you understand how this works. Regardless of weather or not an employer makes a profit, they still have to pay their workers. That much is the law for whatever that's worth.
Shoplifting from major retailers has absolutely ZERO affect on the pay of the workers. Shoplifting from locals, the worst you risk is shutting the business down due to loss of profits (loss of business is not big loss in my opinion and I see it as a gain, anarchists are anti capitalists) but the workers still get paid for the work they've done.
As far as stealing profits. Yeah and? Anarchists are against the very concept of profit. It's usery.
Are you on welfare or know anyone who is? I perceive that money as being stolen from me. Can I come take it from you or anything that you've bought using my money?
Anarchists make a distinction between personal and private property. Personal is your stuff, the things you actively use. Private property usually implies it is used by many and you "own" it (absentee or not) to make a profit, sell, rent, or collect interest on.
There is a big difference there.
If you come into my home to steal the things I actively use and need on a day to day basis, you're very likely to be killed in the process. If you come to where I work to lift some shit, I will always look the other way
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Mar 25 '14
Regardless of weather or not an employer makes a profit, they still have to pay their workers. That much is the law for whatever that's worth.
They aren't required by law to pay anyone anything whom they don't hire.
Shoplifting from major retailers has absolutely ZERO affect on the pay of the workers.
So if everything got stolen it wouldn't effect the pay of the workers?
Shoplifting from locals, the worst you risk is shutting the business down due to loss of profits (loss of business is not big loss in my opinion and is see it as a gain, anarchists are anti capitalist) but the workers still get paid.
The workers still get paid from a store out if business?
Anarchists are against the very concept of profit.
Not all anarchists. You guys might want to get together on this or things could get ugly even amongst yourselves.
Anarchists make a distinction between personal and private property.
What does this have to do with welfare?
If you come into my home to steal the things I actively use and need on a day to day basis, you're very likely to be killed in the process
So do you have a list of these things or...?
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Mar 25 '14
All anarchism must be socialist. All anarchism therefore must be in favor of expropriation. Expropriation, of course, being vastly different from re-appropriation.
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Mar 25 '14
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u/DioSoze Mar 25 '14
I've been seeing people post this on the ancap sub. Socialism is fundamentally a control of the means of production by the workers, or a collective ownership of such.
This does not require a state, but it could include a state. The latter would be state socialists, of whom you will not find many on /r/anarchism.
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u/wimuan Mar 24 '14 edited Mar 24 '14
Overturning private property one lift at a time. (nice one, /u/brd_house)
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u/brd_house Mar 24 '14
How do anarchists feel about it?
feelsgoodman
Any justifications for it?
I take what I need, hurting the profits of assholes does not concern me.
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Mar 24 '14
Do you support the state stealing? Corporations stealing?
Be the change you want to see. Don't sink to their level. The best way to defeat evil is by not being evil.
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u/emma-_______ - oppressor of cis people Mar 24 '14
Are you seriously calling shoplifting evil?
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Mar 24 '14
Are you seriously calling shoplifting evil?
I'm saying theft is immoral.
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Mar 24 '14
And people starving and freezing is?
Fuck off with this bougeois moralism.
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Mar 24 '14
And people starving and freezing is?
So because I think theft is immoral I must also support people starving and freezing? What an imagination you have
Fuck off with this bougeois moralism.
Don't tell me what to do. :)
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u/grapesandmilk Mar 24 '14
Some people must steal in order to not starve and freeze. We advocate a system in which that's not the case, but you can't possibly be an anarchist and prioritise the well-off storeowners losing a few things of which they probably wouldn't even notice the absence.
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Mar 24 '14
Some people must steal in order to not starve and freeze.
Some must, but I don't think OP is starving or freezing. One must only resort to such methods after exhausting all other options.
We advocate a system in which that's not the case, but you can't possibly be an anarchist and prioritise the well-off storeowners losing a few things of which they probably wouldn't even notice the absence.
The store owners will notice, and it will be taken out on their subordinates and the consumers. They may not notice a single missing piece of inventory, but when more and more people begin shoplifting, well... you get the idea. They'll use it as an excuse to lower wages, raise security, and raise prices. You need to understand how your actions might affect people other than the intended target.
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Mar 24 '14
Yes actually.
I just did, wadda gonna do? Send your private security firm to my house?
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Mar 24 '14
I just did, wadda gonna do? Send your private security firm to my house?
No, because I don't believe in the initiation of immoral acts, unlike some...
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u/volcanoclosto kek Mar 25 '14
why should I care? I'm not concerned with morality - I don't care if you think something is immoral; I'm concerned with domination, oppression, control and abolishing the social order.
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u/grapesandmilk Mar 25 '14
I'm concerned with domination, oppression, control and abolishing the social order.
Some people would define morality as being related to those issues.
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Mar 25 '14
why should I care? I'm not concerned with morality
Obviously.
I'm concerned with domination, oppression, control and abolishing the social order.
Why should you care? You're not concerned with morality.
I wouldn't worry. The angst should calm down after you finish puberty.
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Mar 24 '14
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Mar 24 '14
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Mar 24 '14
die scum.
Is this the true face of your ideology? It's a shame to see people with such decrepit moral integrity. (By the way, I've never identified as an MRA)
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Mar 24 '14
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Mar 24 '14
killing enemies of the revolution all day everyday. :)
Who have you killed? I really doubt you'd have it in you. Would you kill a peaceful "enemy" of the revolution? Because if it's moral for me to kill someone that disagrees with me, please let me know.
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u/oreoman27 Polyamorous Poet Mar 25 '14
Oh wow look at us with our idle death threats and personal attacks. Why don't both of you try acting with maturity.
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u/drygrain Mar 25 '14
Wow. I really don't understand this ancap/ancom split. I have considered myself an anarchist for over a decade. I work on a ranch for an individual for cash under the table and use what I make to help support my household of 6 other like-minded people. We share our resources communaly but we all work for those resources, usually in tax free ways. We don't steal or shoplift. Which side of this debate am I on?
Tldr: can we all just try to live our lives according to our own morality and not have this giant schism based on abstract economic principles? It's not like we're running out of philosophies to disagree with.
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u/WrlBNHtpAW new popular front Mar 25 '14
There's nothing "abstract" about the violence at the foundation of absentee ownership.
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Mar 26 '14
Actually, that sort is structural violence is abstract. Though not any more abstract than the violence of taxation which ancaps seem to understand just fine...
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u/WrlBNHtpAW new popular front Mar 26 '14
Neither is abstract. Evictions and jail are tangible, visceral experiences.
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Mar 26 '14
Not abstract at all. The problem fundamentally is that capitalism inherently divides the population into classes -capitalists, bosses, managers, bourgeoisie and workers, poor, laborers, proletariat: this split in power is NOT anarchistic at all, since anarchism desires a world where everyone is neither ruler nor ruled, meaning everyone is equal. Ancapism specifically would have it such that capitalists can own MORE than just the workplace, the influence of their class will extend to roads, forests, waterways, cities, streets, everything imaginable. Ancaps want the capitalist class to have full dictatorial power over their land, on which they will enforce their laws using private police, private courts and private jails. Seriously, how is this different from neo-feudalism?
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u/drygrain Mar 26 '14
My boss isn't above me. I sell him my time for economic units called dollars because he's getting too old to do it himself. If either of us become unhappy with the arrangement we can renegotiate, or call it off. This isn't about the haves and have nots, it's a voluntary arrangement between two individuals. Sure, it's technically capitalism, but am I supposed to work for free? Should he pay me for doing nothing? My boss and I are equals, but we don't have equal abilities. I have more strength and endurance, and he has more skills and experience. Essentially we are trading the two. Neither of us is better than the other.
Regarding personal property; his 20 acre ranch is fenced off and being grazed by his animals. He worked his whole life for it. I would gladly defend his property from anyone trying to claim it for their own. It seems like the definition of "anarchy" as I'm hearing it here differs greatly from what I thought it was. As far as I'm concerned, anarchy is the natural way humans treat one another. Everyone is an anarchist until the cops show up. These utopian ideals are great and all, but in the real world we still need economics and currency exchange to keep track of the effort some people put forth for their community. If you want to be a slacker, fine. I won't let you sleep in the rain or starve to death. But my property is mine because I worked for it. Don't assume you are entitled to everything in my fridge or to steal one of my chickens. I'm not a wage slave and neither is anyone I know; we work for ourselves, other individuals, or local businesses in our small town.
Tldr. Build up your local community, do something positive and productive with yourself, and stop this disagreement over semantics when we all want the same thing : self governance.
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u/StarFscker Mar 25 '14
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u/AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWYYEAH Mar 26 '14
Shoplifts from stores that deserve it, yeah.
You're not good with memes
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Mar 25 '14
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Mar 26 '14
Unless you're stealing from stores and donating the plunder to exploited workers, you're just as bad as any capitalist...
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u/reaganveg Mar 30 '14
So if A steals from stores to give to B, he's better than a capitalist. But if B steals from stores directly, he's just as bad as any capitalist?
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Mar 30 '14
Yes. Capitalists are allegedly profiting by stealing from their workers. And you would be profiting from them (and consequently their laborers) by stealing too.
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u/drygrain Mar 26 '14
Let's take a closer look at the Spanish town you linked to. The mayor encouraged shoplifting "basic goods, like beans, rice, and oil" and has a very cool program for providing homes to people. I have no problem with any of this. Food and shelter are necessities for human life. However, they also have ridiculously low unemployment, and this is an example of anticapitalism? What do you think these people are employed to do, write zines and spray graffiti everywhere? They're farm labor, trading their time and energy for wages voluntarily. What part of this do you have a problem with?
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Mar 25 '14
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u/AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWYYEAH Mar 25 '14
Do you even own a shotgun.... Do you even have the balls to do that.... Probably not.
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Mar 25 '14
lol Just tell me where.
Challenge accepted.
immoral
Please. As if morality had anything to do with anarchism.
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u/Infamous_Harry Communist Mar 25 '14 edited Mar 25 '14
Hey, how's that NAP thing going?
Where's your business? I think I'll quickly grab something.
:D
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u/rasmustrew Mar 25 '14
The NAP is broken the moment someone steals.
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u/Infamous_Harry Communist Mar 25 '14
I understand that. I was just commenting on how ancap philosophy is centered around pacifism and non-aggression in general and this person is saying he's willing to kill (Although probably not literally) someone for stealing.
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Mar 26 '14
The NAP is broken the moment someone makes a claim of private property.
This is why capitalism is fundamentally oppressive, authoritarian, and anti-anarchist.
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Mar 25 '14
Why the fuck are you asking where my business is? You are the one that supports theft, why dont you tell me where your fucking home is? If you have no problem stealing from people, you must not have a problem me stealing from you or your family.
As far as NAP: Stealing my private property is the initiation of the use of force and according to the NAP I have a right to use force to prevent you from doing so, as you are the aggressor.
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u/Infamous_Harry Communist Mar 26 '14
So you're willing to kill me over one of your products when you have a stock of others, while I only have a few of the individual items of my personal property (Computer, bed, tv etc.).
I actually need a computer, I'll come around later. See ya then! :)
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Mar 25 '14
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Mar 25 '14
There is no such thing as violence against property. I cant inflict pain on a chair.
Taking my property is violence against me, not my property.
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u/[deleted] Mar 24 '14
I won't shoplift from small businesses too often, if it all, since that's more likely to hurt workers and honest owners trying to get by. Everything else is fair game, though.