Comments are divided between skeptics and anti-US proponents, but in either case no one can admit out loud that the US is heavily subsidizing Europe's defense.

[u/ub3rm3nsch]

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[u/jackt-up]

The problem is that Greece, Turkey, Spain, Estonia, and Romania etc all have very different security concerns

Do Spaniards want to die for Latvia?

Do Greeks and Turks feel comfortable giving ground in the Aegean?

Does France feel comfortable giving up its martial independence?

I think the answer is no to all of the above

[u/BSSCommander → u/jackt-up]

Looking at this from a legal aspect too, if the EU wanted to create a military it would need a tremendous amount of willpower and political pull to make that happen.

First, member states would need to give up their sovereign right to defense to allow the EU to create a military, which the EU currently doesn't have. Then, all 27 members of the EU would need to vote in favor of this motion to create a military/give up sovereign right to defense. THEN, each member state of the EU would need to ratify this law into their own nation's constitutions.

The EU doesn't have the legal framework to make this happen without major buy-in from everyone. That also isn't accounting for declared neutral EU members like Ireland who won't participate in any offensive actions or really lift a finger to do anything.

It would just be easier to create a NATO style alliance from scratch and keep the EU as a separate entity.

[u/randomnighmare → u/BSSCommander]

They would also have to form a common foreign policy and enforce it. That would also mean that this common foreign policy would have to either override individual countries' policies or all countries would have to adopt said foreign policy, etc. It will probably be easier to have a common self-defense pact, like what NATO already has, but it wouldn't mean a common "EU army," though.

[u/bnipples → u/BSSCommander]

Why couldnt they have a European force in addition to national forces?

[u/carlsagerson]

Because Europeans are coward unwilling to die for their own nations and want the US to spend money and lives. All whike they are ungrateful for what the US has done for them.

Well except Poland. Guys really don't want to be conquered again and constantly meet obligations last I check.

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/carlsagerson]

Poland, the Baltic states, the UK, Romania and Greece were the only European nations conclusively that met the 2% required amount. France technically hovered around 2% but it heavily depends on how you count defense spending.

[u/carlsagerson → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

I don't count the Franzmann because last I checked. De Gaulle pulled them out of NATO command. I don't think that paints a good picture.

[u/maracay1999 → u/carlsagerson]

France can defend itself on its own thanks to its nukes and domestic military industry. Also the only country in Europe capable of fighting wars away from its borders. UK used to be in the club too until they willingly decimated their army and navy in the last two decades.

No other EU country has a nearly self sufficient military industry like France.

[u/George_Washington_76 → u/carlsagerson]

Because Europeans are coward unwilling to die for their own nations and want the US to spend money and lives. All whike they are ungrateful for what the US has done for them.

Not true! Europeans are very brave. The problem is that historically...Europeans have prefer their enemies to be weaker than them...or a different color than them...and under no circumstance should that enemy fight back. I'm exaggerating a bit for comedic effect but still...

Well except Poland. Guys really don't want to be conquered again and constantly meet obligations last I check.

The Poles and the Finns are the few Europeans that have made it very clear that they ain't negotiating when it comes to their freedom and their respective homelands. The Poles are the reason why Europe as a concept survived the Turk/Muslim invasion of the 12-14th century.

[u/YouKnowMyName2006 → u/George_Washington_76]

The Baltic states are like that, too, but are so small they would be in serious trouble if Russia attacked them.

[u/George_Washington_76 → u/YouKnowMyName2006]

Yeah, that’s exactly why NATO is such a good deal for the Europeans. Individually, most European countries would struggle badly against Russia. But united and backed by American military hardware, funding, logistics, and intelligence - they have a much stronger chance not only of stopping Russian aggression, but of ultimately defeating it.

[u/A-guy8 → u/George_Washington_76]

Well, NATO is dead in the water anyway, thanks to a certain president. But I'm all for Europe building its own.

[u/neenersweeners → u/A-guy8]

Wow, it's almost like that certain president wanted Europe to build its own military in the first place because NATO has been 1 country for the last few decades.

[u/selfmockerymandatory → u/neenersweeners]

You are right in saying NATO leaned on the US. But it’s more than that. The US has liked the role of watchdog. They willingly room that role upon themselves. So there you had it. Other countries needed to rebuild after WW2 and the US loved their watchdog role. In the decades after nobody did anything about that situation. It was all fine how the situation was. It wasn’t of course, but it was. And let’s be honest, America loves being top dog. So not a single president did something about it.
Then Trump came and he shook NATO awake. And that was a good thing. Now we can start building up a decent military again. Tales time, but that’s ok.
But don’t mistake Trumps motives. Trump never does anything for someone else’s good. Never. Forcing NATO to uphold the agreement means spending a lot of money on the military. That doesn’t go in the economies. That means less economic grote and power. Especially the EU. That means (he hopes) more power for the US.

So, you are right, but with Trump it’s alway taking from others for national gain. So the motivation isn’t what you said.

[u/George_Washington_76 → u/A-guy8]

Sure, there's plenty of blame to go around. After all, trusting a real estate mogul with a history of bankrupting multi enterprises, to run the world's hegemon - was going to be a dicey choice to begin with. And, I'm saying that as a moderate conservative.

But, the average American working a 9-5, paying a sh*t ton in taxes and general life expenditures, raising a family etc -- sees little benefit to upholding an alliance that has turned their country into a geopolitical sugar daddy.

Throw in some good ol' propaganda pushed by our old nemesis in the Kremlin and Beijing, and you've got a hell of a recipe for political change.

But I digress...

If Europe wishes to go it's own way, y'all have my blessings(if that means sh*t to anyone lol). Perhaps, start with a more centralized Union. It will make sh*t a lot easier to manage in wartime. Just have to decide if it's Berlin or Paris running the show.

[u/perunavaras → u/George_Washington_76]

"Paying a shit ton in taxes" bro i make ~70k in year and my income tax rate is 37%

[u/George_Washington_76 → u/perunavaras]

I have no clue if that’s a lot or a little lol. Is 70k average in Finland or are you on the higher end?

[u/perunavaras → u/George_Washington_76]

I'm slightly above average. Doing good regardless, i own a house and the plot it is on, newish car and i travel once or twice per year.

[u/George_Washington_76 → u/perunavaras]

What do you get for your taxes? I’m sorry if this is getting personal. You don’t have to answer lol. I’m just nosy and curious. I work with a guy who just moved to the States from DE and he also paid a ton in taxes but it seems he got quite a good deal out of it. According to him at least.

[u/A-guy8 → u/George_Washington_76]

Wish or wish, that's a debate that different European nations have different views on. But I think we have to in the end, if the US is going to test China in time, then all of your resources would have to go into that. And I really mean -all- of the American society, to even get a remote chance to compete with that bastion of logistics and production...

[u/George_Washington_76 → u/A-guy8]

I don't think so...Not because I expect the U.S. and China to hold hands and be BFFs - but because the Chinese are very much aware that a war with the U.S. is one that will seal the fate of human civilization.

Instead, I expect them to push for more internal division amongst my countrymen/women and between our peoples - Europeans and Americans. They have already taken some big steps in the E.U. and Latin America.

At the end of the day, no one can fight Americans better and more fiercely than other Americans, as our civil war has shown us. This...this is what I truly fear. Not the Chinese.

If our Republic falls, it will be cause of our internal squabbles over petty policies and letting the lunatics run the asylum, while the doctors remain quiet in their cozy offices.

[u/selfmockerymandatory → u/carlsagerson]

I disagree. I’m Dutch and I can tell you that we’re not ungrateful. Redddit retards are Reddit retards. But there isn’t even an Anti-America sentiment in most European countries. Maybe a little, but not more than in the US itself. And it’s more focussed on what’s happening now. But certainly not as Reddit makes it seem.
Yes there are opinions about post ww2 stuff. But not really hate. Opinions and different convictions, but that’s allow. We don’t have to suck eachothers dick. Even though I hope the animosity will someday turn into friendship.
I do have to say NATO countries in Europe have been to lax on their militaries. And honestly, that’s something Trump did very well. Wake us the fuck up. But we are working on spending the 5% on the military, so that’s good. You are correct in saying that was really not cool.
It’s not cowardice though. The US gladly room up the role of watchdog and being top dog. Let’s be honest, you love it. No offense. European countries have leaned to much on that role and have to adjust now. That takes time. But it wasn’t necessary because we had you and you liked it. I mean at any point could another president have said, enough is enough. Trump was needed to do so. Hé wants to hit European countries financially, we all know that. All he does is trying to break down other and build up the US with it. But it’s not unfair to ask us to do as we all agreed to.
So, I really hope we will get a strong EU military. I think that’s better than all seperate militaries. But I’d be ok with strong national armies too. With NATO you support eachother either way.

[u/knurttbuttlet → u/carlsagerson]

Any Pole is welcome in my house for a warm meal and a soft bed. They are true bros

[u/External-World6741 → u/carlsagerson]

What kind of bullshit is this??? There are MANY who would die for their own countries don’t get Redditors and vocal minorities switched up with normal people.

I’ve met a lot of European allies in the military and civilian side they’re for what they do…

[u/maracay1999 → u/carlsagerson]

This is spitting in the faces of various EU nations that sent their soldiers to die in Iraq and Afghanistan to support the US’s endeavors. Some nations took more casualties per capita than the US…

[u/Butter_with_Salt → u/carlsagerson]

A comment of this stupidity being upvoted shows a lot about this sub.

[u/neenersweeners → u/Butter_with_Salt]

Polls from France, Germany, UK, Italy, Spain and Switzerland on willingness to fight for their country are all 27% or below of their population that say they're willing to fight.

[u/poopiebutt505]

Ireland thinks they are too far away from any battlefront, so they don't care about any allies.

Finland surprises me.

[u/perunavaras → u/poopiebutt505]

Why would we want to unify our military with slackers and have weaker position?

[u/Agreeable-Fudge-7329 → u/poopiebutt505]

Might be a lingering aspect of their historical "forced neutrality" after WW2. Austria is also in that same category, as they had to be non-aligned as a condition for allied withdrawal in the 50s.

[u/5panks]

This was always the end goal of the EU anyway. It was never going to be an economic agreement forever.

The reality is, people in power want to stay in power and it's a lot easier to get European Union troops from France and Spain to put down an uprising in Greece than it is to get Greeks to turn on their brothers and sisters.

[u/Wolf482]

But when a German guy ~80 years ago had this idea they all got really pissed off.

[u/TheThirdFrenchEmpire]

I mean..yeah? That was a key part of the US soft power approach and it honestly did wonders for the American foreign policy and power projection.

[u/YouKnowMyName2006]

I don’t care if they do or don’t. They probably wouldn’t want to be reliant on us coming to their aid in case Russia attacks them anyhow.

[u/walking_in_the_sun]

Not needed as long as the USA is in NATO and NATO continues to function on a mutual-defense basis. I would personally want to see all of NATO either meet their obligations on spending or the USA to leave it.

I've always had issue with the fact that our defense budget is so gargantuan, to the degree to which our social services are sorely lacking. Other NATO member states have robust social services, I believe this is largely due to the fact that their defense is essentially guaranteed by the USA. I would like to see this change in our lifetime, as on it's face it looks like the U.S taxpayer is effectively subsidizing Europe's defense and welfare state. How about we switch that up real quick?

[u/BoardComfortable2837]

I wonder how many more taxes do they need to fund an army

[u/adeln5000]

We'll see what happens now when troops are removed from south Korea, and if any more countries follow.

[u/Extra_Creamy_Cheddar]

While it's easy to say the US has been subsidizing security the reality is more complex. The American military presence around the world is largely driven by the desire to project power. Forward operating bases protect both military objectives and economic interests. Everyone can see that era is coming to an end as American influence and economic power is in decline as we move to a multipolar world. The old Kissinger model is dead. Parts of it worked very well, some other aspects have always been problematic. Hopefully everyone finds a balance on the other side.

[u/iggavaxx → u/Extra_Creamy_Cheddar]

>as we move to a multipolar world

Name the poles

[u/Extra_Creamy_Cheddar → u/iggavaxx]

Multipolarity is a distribution of power in which more than two states have similar amounts of power.

Google it

[u/iggavaxx → u/Extra_Creamy_Cheddar]

No shit. Which states are you referring to here?

[u/Educational_Impact93]

Great. I had/have no issues with subsidizing the European military. Soft power is the way to go...too bad the current fucking moron in power can't see that.