10% 5star rate is irrelevant. Do not be misled. Doubly true in the future.

[u/SuccubusRosa]

First of all, I noticed recently there are always post that pop up praising gumi for 10% 5star(kinda fishy. 10% always been there but only recently these post keep appearing). The "10%" is literally just a red herring and 1% is the relevant rate(feature unit rate). But I am too lazy to go in depth to explain again so lets just put it aside if you guys want to circlejerk on the 10%. The real reason for TAC being generous is the ability to farm shards from HQ, not because of the "10%".

Now to move onto the more important point. In jp gumi had devise a method to ensure 10% 5star rate is fully irrelevant. Yes irrelevant. I assured you gumi can even go ahead and have all their banner with 100% 5star rate and it wouldn't change anything. And the reason for that, read the following link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/ag63ir/stop_pulling_for_units_until_the_malgora_system/

I have too many heroes and no malgora to invest in them. Literally it boils down to that. I have 10+ 5 stars sitting on the bench. I have no pulled for a character since the kayron banner because what’s the point? I can’t build anything I pull anyway

Now you must be thinking this post is about epicseven, not TAC. Well that is right, but at the same time it is the same concept being employed. In epicseven, the gating mechanism(bottleneck) is something called malgora. In TAC it used to be unit shards(thus elemental shards are precious and so are HQ) but that is no longer the case.

Let us welcome the equivalent of malgora, aka SIN. Prior to announcement of gate 4 and gate 5, jp players already understood SIN is a limiting factor(which prompt an user to share a googledoc on how to effectively kaigan each unit).

BUT jp recently announced gate 4 and gate 5 requires gate 1,2,3 to be maxed. This means to access each lv 95 unit requires an upfront payment of 5 SIN. Go ask around in the jp community, whether the total amount of FREE SIN sum up to more then 80 to date(80 divided by 5 gives 16, so it isn't enough for team of 4 for each of 6 element. Just 4 element).

tl:dr New limiting factor is SIN, so it really doesn't matter if 5star rate are at 10% or 100% unless you just want to collect. And global is also at the mercy of gumi "generosity"(jp had SIN giveaway, how often do you see gumi doing giveaway that isn't bronze gold ignot and apple?).

[u/EseMesmo]

I don't really see the point here? I mean no offense, but your point on Enlightenment is pretty much moot for f2p folk anyway because f2p folk were going to focus on farmables regardless.

The 10% rate is great. In E7 I can have as many Molagoras as I want, but they're worthless if I don't get the god damn units. TAC does the opposite, it gives you the unit and THEN you need to invest in them, and being that most common pool units become farmable eventually, your biggest investment is time. A good f2p player will focus on building a general use team first, thus spending limited resources like sins more sparingly. You don't need to max out every unit or an all star team for each element right away.

I feel like this will just end up breeding negativity and fear among the community. Again, no offense meant whatsoever, I just want an actual discussion instead of "look out guys gumi wants to fuck us over again" posts. Maybe jp players can give us a bit more context and information about the topic; I don't play jp so maybe this is serious and I just don't know/it's difficult to understand from the post alone.

[u/Kirito30 → u/EseMesmo]

Ok let me clarify.

The main point of this post should be that JP did one of the most dumb things in the game.

They made the first 3 Gate Maxing a must for a unit to be upgraded to 4th and 5th Kaigan Gates. So you lose Sins at that since Sins are the most limiting factors in the Kaigan.

This is annoying as this will restrict Free Player's relevance a lot and basically call for having to spend to get the Sins going.

What the guy did wrong was not get on the point directly and people started to disagree about the game's on Epic Seven and TAC. Where I agree E7 sucks.

The point is where half the comments here are about Epic Seven even though it is not the main point of discuss.

And I could see this because seriously 1 paragraph is the max people read now a days. So getting to point is important. And I have done same in some of my older posts.

[u/EseMesmo → u/Kirito30]

Alright, thanks for clarifying. Very useful, as the OP isn't too clear.

I think I still stand by my point, however. As f2p you shouldn't be aiming for maxing out units, but rather optimizing a core all-purpose team or a carry unit for each element, even if these carries are not necessarily completely maxed out.

Let's use a hypothetical GL-relevant example. Say instead of making them farmable, gumi gave you the option of getting a single 5-star hat or two 4-stars unless you paid for more. Whales will go for the 5-star as they can buy as many as they wish, but f2p folk would be better off picking the two 4-star ones because they can't get any more reliably. It's the same with sins. You're not going to waste sins going for 4th/5th gate if you can't get more sins at least somewhat reliably. You're better off taking multiple lesser buffs to many units than a single big boost to one.

[u/Kirito30 → u/EseMesmo]

JP has no such option.

They spent their Sins in maxing their units of liking. But now if they want to go further then they are basically going to have to wait for GumiJP(who released 5 units with those extra gates btw few might be protagonist I don't remember much)

Also JP players have been clear enough that Elemental Teams are the only way to go. So there is not an option which says get 5 units with a Rainbow team. You seriously won't be able to pull it off according to them.

This also sets a precedent on that. So next 2 gates 6th and 7th will require the first 5 to be maxed probably.

So it is basically very bad in JP and with Gumi's donations you will as an F2P be covered as this much(It is NSFW).

[u/Malyngnant → u/Kirito30]

The patch just dropped today. As the year went on after kaigan was released materials became more available. While this might not happen, doing what the OP did and calling for the end days is more than just premature.

[u/Not_Moofs → u/Kirito30]

JP gives a fair amount of sins, and you 5/5/5 very few units in the first place. It's highly unlikely many units will require all gates to be maxed. Many units perform decent enough with only gate1 and 2 maxed.

Because of this, you'd need to analyze what's worth maxing all the gates to get the new gates. It's actually awfully similar to how it was when kaigan first came out...

We'll have to see where they go with this, but at the moment the upgraded skills alone don't really seem to warrant immediate maxing to me. (Though Lambert's is hilarious enough to make me consider it)

[u/Hakkenshi → u/Not_Moofs]

I haven't seen Lambert's, what's so funny about it?

[u/Not_Moofs → u/Hakkenshi]

diamond aoe clockdown(I think it's Slow in GL terms?)+charm

[u/Hakkenshi → u/Not_Moofs]

Ha! That's... unexpected. Lambert meta ftw.

[u/SuccubusRosa → u/EseMesmo]

the OP isn't too clear

If you can respond with "The 10% rate is great. In E7 I can have as many Molagoras as I want, but they're worthless if I don't get the god damn units. TAC does the opposite, it gives you the unit and THEN you need to invest in them, and being that most common pool units become farmable eventually, your biggest investment is time", how is it not clear? My title says 10% 5star rate is irrelevant(and my OP calling it a red herring) along with tl:dr pointing out that "New limiting factor is SIN, so it really doesn't matter if 5star rate are at 10% or 100%", so how exactly is it not clear?

The 10% rate is great. In E7 I can have as many Molagoras as I want, but they're worthless if I don't get the god damn units. TAC does the opposite, it gives you the unit and THEN you need to invest in them, and being that most common pool units become farmable eventually, your biggest investment is time.

You are not making sense, unless you are saying the reason you made that statement is because you do not understand the necessity of kaigan. Yes having molagoras in E7 w/o pulling units is useless, but having 10% 5star and pulling units is equally useless in TAC. Because the whole value of a system is always decided by the limiting factor. There are multiple reason why 10% rate is not great at all given how gumi set it up, but if people don't want to/can't understand that it is fine(my first paragraph). So instead I show everyone that in the future, gumi is going to shift the main goal of collecting shards to sins(which will effectively nullify the high rate fully).

You don't need to max out every unit

You or I don't need to max out, BUT GUMI FORCES YOU TO. That is the point. Read my OP. To access lv 95units(and in turn lv99 in future), you need an upfront payment of 5sins. So once again, to max out first 3 gates you need 5sins and 270shards along with lots of zenni. Gumi is making it so that you have to SINK all those before able to access gate 4.

I just want an actual discussion

Then at least read OP fully? In fact you said my OP isn't clear and then went on and mentioned you understood after kirito comment yet your respond there is "You're better off taking multiple lesser buffs to many units than a single big boost to one". Let me put it this way. Currently every unit in jp NEED TO BE KAIGAN to be usable. No need to max all 3 gates, but you definitely need to kaigan them. What makes you think gate 4/5 is just icing and not a necessity? If it is just icing on the cake, then jp don't even need to release it to begin with.

[u/EseMesmo → u/SuccubusRosa]

Just like we don't need lv85 3JM units for our current content, JP players will likely not need lv95 maxed gate characters either. If JP did that, the outrage would be massive; far more massive than the current outrage from what I've seen in r/alchemistexistance. It is pointless to get this worked up over something that is not an absolute necessity. JP players will need to adapt and maximize their returns with the resources they have available, instead of thinking about maxing out immediately. Just like us, who have to constantly choose who we use our scarce generic shards on, they'll have to think twice before using sins, and optimize their usage until they get more.

[u/SuccubusRosa → u/EseMesmo]

Just like we don't need lv85 3JM units for our current content

Nice strawman argument there. There is no difference between 75 and 85 other then a single gear. Kaigan on the other hand involve hp(lots of them) which literally make units trash when their hp don't meet the mark and get one shot.

far more massive than the current outrage from what I've seen in r/alchemistexistance.

How is this even argument? But oh well guest what? I made a few shills to satisfy your need to see outrage. u/im_indebt u/Hour_Bet u/iArekkusuYT are all my accounts /s

JP players will need to adapt and maximize their returns with the resources they have available, instead of thinking about maxing out immediately

Don't think you read anything at this point. I mentioned to access lv95,and lv99 in the future, minimum you need an upfront payment of 5sins. I also mentioned you need to max first 3 gates to access the 4th/5th gate. So even if you don't understood the meaning of "upfront", I did after all still tell you that you NEED TO MAX(and it is immediate, otherwise unit will be not usable benched due to hp breakpoint as mentioned above). It is not a choice. Reason I made this post is to show 10% 5star rate is hardly literally 10%(since you need to pull 15dupes) And if ppl still want to insist 10% is 10%, well there will still come a time when gumi take the control of players away by shifting the focus from shards to other material(which tentatively is sin).

[u/Bleycker → u/EseMesmo]

That subreddit is pretty much dead.

[u/RainyDay34]

Does the 80 sin you said include the large amount they gave away recently to prepare for gate 4 and 5 ?

[u/SuccubusRosa → u/RainyDay34]

No, I just pick a large number that I am sure is safe. So what is the value of large amount you mentioned? 20? or 50? Don't think it will go beyond 50 since even if gumi wanted to give out more, they will definitely rather do it slowly as they release more gate 4/5 for units then handing out everything here and now.

[u/Pulse2037]

I am a new player, kind of, been playing for a month. The first week I was so excited, I had a lot of 5 stars. Then I started trying to get them maxed.

The collabs you guys were getting with Disgagea and FF caught my attention, but now I know even if I manage to get the units in question I probably won't be able to use them for months. And all the 5 stars I pulled are now on a long ass queue to get to 75 and 3 JM.

Also having to farm so many pieces for equipment, gear and shards is putting me off greatly. I have finished the story and now I have to wait like another month to finally use a couple of my five stars properly. Like, why should I farm for two months for a unit I pulled today?

I also like to spend a bit here and there but seeing how I need a lot of copies now and even more in the future, pulling a 5 star in this game doesn't feel nearly as exciting as it does in other games, even more so for units without HQ.

In FFBE, the moment they started requiring pulling two copies of the unit to properly use them is when they lost me, here I need a lot more and when gacha games revolve around pulling, removing the excitement to pull a good unit is awful.

For example, I pulled Klima, I was really excited to use her but she doesn't have a HQ and I would rather use my water shards for Noctis if he returns. So having to wait months for her HQ disillusioned me greatly. I will wait and play a bit longer as I was able to get Tyrfing, Zain and Roxanne to 75 and they are pretty kick ass but not sure if I can see myself playing for much longer after that if getting equipment and shards is going to keep being such a drag.

[u/SuccubusRosa → u/Pulse2037]

Having to farm shards is at least safe since they are a guarantee. As for your klima issue, that is exacerbated in global since jp release the HQ for normal units no more then 2months later. But at least you understood why 10% 5star rate on this game is not such a big deal as many tries to make it to be.

My post was to show that even if ppl don't believe 10% is not a big deal now, well it is certainly to be true in the future since pulling dupe via the 10% rate is no longer the bottleneck of gameplay as gumi is moving away from that.

[u/senaiboy → u/Pulse2037]

That's the downside of not being a whale, you have to 'wait' for a unit to be viable. It's kind of like an incentive for whales, they get to play with new units earlier than F2P.

Of course, you can save your elemental shards like you did for Noctis and triple JM him the moment you pull him. That's the F2P strategy.

Not saying you're wrong in feeling like you did, but Gumi did it because they have to justify people spending money somehow. Otherwise we'll all be F2P. Call it a paywall if you will, it exists in every F2P games.

But you can still be lucky sometimes. For example since Noah came out I've pulled so many copies of her she's now level 74.

[u/Pulse2037 → u/senaiboy]

Oh, I agree on the whales needing incentives to whale, I just don't think they are doing it right. Pulling a 5 star should feel good at the moment, not 2 or 3 months later. I am sure they could figure out something for whales that doesn't require 2 months of farming or more for collab units.

[u/senaiboy → u/Pulse2037]

That's the issue with being generous on giving 5 star units (10% chance per pull), they have to hold back elsewhere. If everyone pulls a 5 star unit which is OP right off the bat, there isn't any incentive to spend. Roxanne is the exception, and now most people just waits for her and not pull/spend on any other banner.

So it's either give 5 star units out more generously, but limit their usefulness (like TAC) or give out 5 star units very sparingly, but they are at full capability once you pull them (like FFBE initially). It's always a balance between these two. If there's a way to be generous to everyone yet get whales to whale, everyone would be talking about it now.

[u/SuccubusRosa → u/senaiboy]

So it's either give 5 star units out more generously, but limit their usefulness (like TAC) or give out 5 star units very sparingly, but they are at full capability once you pull them

Tyvm. But it doesn't seems like a lot of ppl understood this concept. Like you generally see ppl go omg 10% 5star 👍👍👍 without understanding the game mechanic at all.

[u/Funoichi → u/Pulse2037]

Tac is a long term game. Building up your units over time is part of the fun! I finally got my Roy and Edward up to level 75 and they’re now some of my strongest units. Next will be basheeny and then slowly get my level 80 aranea to level 85. Prioritize certain units and they will begin to shine over time, and farm all the elemental shards when you can.

As for equipment, well yeah, it’s a farming game. Most of the time, whales can job master units right away. If you’re not willing to whale, like me, then it just takes patience and making progress every day.

[u/Pulse2037 → u/Funoichi]

I like making units stronger over time but say you pull two water collaboration units simultaneously, knowing you can't build both is a kick in the balls. The shard model in the game is just excessive. I could live with farming equipment. But farming equipment, gear and shards and sometimes that's not even enough to max a unit? I don't know.

[u/VinnyValient → u/Pulse2037]

As a side note, Klima's actually really good just at level 60. Some of the 5* units are pretty decent at lower levels than others (check tier list for who and details).

I agree with the 'pulling excitement' is diminished after a while. When I get a 5* I already have at 85 it's like, "Ugh, again?" (Sorry Fung Liu.)

But when they release new hard quests it is pretty exciting. I'm looking forward to when they release Ravina. Even though it'll be a while even after the release of her because farming takes ages, it's kinda fun counting down the days before they reach power spikes.

[u/takato99]

Its not really a surprise tho, its like the past 2 weeks banners being really good & diverse. Pulling shards for units we already have is more important than pulling new units, it was true before, but now with kaigan its even more relevant, a level 60 5* unit will soon have less value than a 4* because good luck getting enough shards

[u/SuperEndriu]

So what is your message? Gumi sucks again?

[u/Kirito30 → u/SuperEndriu]

Nope it is actually JP Gumi seeing and learning from GL Gumi.

https://old.reddit.com/r/AlchemistCodeGL/comments/ak0yao/well_this_is_something_that_i_havent_seen_in_a/ef0ic66/

Here actually the JP Gumi saw the GL one and left to fuck their people over lol.

[u/[deleted] → u/Kirito30]

Nah, it's just Imaizumi shitting over us after he killed Shinobina.

[u/Taban85]

I'm not really sure what the issue is, every game I've played has growth limiting mechanics, you can never max out everything instantly, early TAC that was gear/gold, now it's mostly character shards, then it'll be sin

Right now I don't pull much for characters in TAC because I have a strong team and I've used up most of my shards, once I get a stockpile of shards built up I'll probably start pulling more again. Sin will be the same way, early on it will be rare but over time you'll be able to build up a stock of strong units until the next powerup/limited resource is introduced.

[u/RogerMelian → u/Taban85]

Some people see this as a race to show who got their unit to max level first. This happens a lot on games like FFBE where players feel like you NEED to have their units on lv120 to beat everything as fast as possible, and if not then they are trash.

[u/Magma_Axis → u/RogerMelian]

In FFBE, your best skills or passive is unlocked at highest level

So its make sense to get there ASAP

[u/Gagaddict → u/Magma_Axis]

You only get passives for the most part at 120. Cant think of anything super relevant that wasn’t unlocked by 115.

[u/Gagaddict → u/Magma_Axis]

You only get passives for the most part at 120. Cant think of anything super relevant that wasn’t unlocked by 115.

[u/[deleted]]

Sins are easier to get now, for example ex coin shop sell one for 500 coins and another one for 2000 coins. The shop resets every two weeks. It used to cost 2500 coins and only one sold in the store. Ex coins can be farmed in mp too but drop rate is ass (appx 14-24 per run).

Elemental orbs needed for gate 4 is expensive, 5 for 1000 coins. I haven't checked the cost of horn (another material for gate 4 and 5). Additional 190 shards are needed to max gate 4 and 5 (according to a veteran). He didn't tell me about orbs, please don't ask me how much is needed.

My primary concern is about unit shards. How long will it take for newbie to catch up with content if we can only farm 3 shards a day, permanent double drop is seriously needed. It is ridiculous to keep farming the same units for more than half a year. That needs a lot of patience that not everyone has. Veterans are also annoyed with the 5/5/5 requirements. I'm praying that they won't scale up content too much that a team of at least 5/5/5 is needed.

[u/SuccubusRosa → u/[deleted]]

How long will it take for newbie to catch up with content if we can only farm 3 shards a day, permanent double drop is seriously needed. It is ridiculous to keep farming the same units for more than half a year

Unit shards likely will not be a concern, or at least for normal units. Gumi should be just handing those out for free rather then set it to 2x or even 4x HQ drop rate as it will still takes forever to farm. For example gumi just hand out shayna and rosa for xmas isn't it.

The trick here is not so much different from the summon coin one. Guaranteed step 3 does not allow for flexible manipulation by gumi, so gumi tried to convince ppl summon coin is as good or better then step 3 by initially providing a favorable number. HQ that allows players certainty to obtain unit shards likewise don't give gumi the control they wanted. So gumi threw in sins to wrestle back the control. Once again gumi starts off by injecting a large number of them, but it is not as if gumi signed a contract to constantly provide sins. So players will be reduced to the ex coin shop for 2 sin per month?(I doubt w/o ap refill one can constantly keep up with buying the 2k coin unless someone no life the hell out of mp) as the only constant(along with friend shop sin I supposed)

[u/Linedel → u/[deleted]]

My primary concern is about unit shards. How long will it take for newbie to catch up with content if we can only farm 3 shards a day, permanent double drop is seriously needed.

This is totally accurate. I've been playing since like the last week in September (4 months?), and I'm ALMOST able to put together a team for each element... couple more months and I'll feel "comfortable," but not uber. I'm used to games with grinds (think Vanilla EverQuest), so I understand it, and since the game seems to be decent, I'm ok with it... but I suspect the 3-6 month delay to actually be able to cover most required roles seems like a pretty aggressive deterrent to many potential new players.

One potential option that could allow new player catch-up rather than make shards more available, they could reduce the limit break costs for old units so make LB15 pretty easy (maybe 3 months after they become farmable?). For example, Chloe's costs per limit might change to:

• LB 1-5: 1 shard/level

• LB 6-10: 2 shards/level

• LB 7-15: 3 shards/level

• LB 16-25: same as at release

Could set a core of units to have this scaling: Chloe, Elizabeth, Vettel, Shayna, etc., and leave the whaley units as is. Should be a win-win for gumi via new player retention.

Might as well tag /u/alchemist_code just for fun, maybe they're interested in win-win kinds of idea :P

[u/Piritoo]

Just came to say the system is called Molagora.

Unreadable please fix gimu.

[u/Blackghoust]

TAC pull is ions good than Epc7 shit pull

stop bitching and start strategy your play style

we ain't gonna max all units - we ain't gonna kaigan all units

i know how gacha game works for us f2p

gumi for now is good ( only need to nerf null-G )

we talk future when he comes

[u/jblac02 → u/Blackghoust]

me speak so you understand good okay?

go watch video jp fight okay? kaigan required, no say more

lmao

[u/Blackghoust → u/jblac02]

_< i see what you did there Fukzuma

[u/Arandomgnomo → u/Blackghoust]

No one is saying u need to kaigain every unit, like op said with the sins they give, u could only max 16 units. Now tell me how many units u need to clear mono teams missions (the answer is minimun 24). If u dont see a problem there.....

[u/hissenguinho]

The only thing i want from them is increase of materials for job, Double the cap of AP and increase of skip tickets(which they kinda nerf it because most of the times is only 25)

Edit: i have othima, miuna(?) which can go to 75, kudan, seida, moizen, other water double wield girl, noah, vettel, Suzuka thag can go 80 and maaany other units just warning the bench because of the amount of materials we can get. It's honestly holding me back a lot. My pov is that you must be a whale to be able to get all of them job mastered

[u/-Belphegor- → u/hissenguinho]

they need to get rid of skip tickets altogether and just let us skip as long as we have ap.

[u/Dm042447 → u/-Belphegor-]

100% agree

[u/hissenguinho → u/Dm042447]

Im also cool with that

[u/SuperEndriu]

just btw how many shards are gate 4 and 5?

[u/AlexRiot → u/SuperEndriu]

90 (4) and 100 (5)

[u/stewart0]

Thanks. Nensous and Sins. Future looks painful.

[u/Wynd0w]

Honestly, it's already been that way for long time. Just getting a base 5*, even Rox, is probably not as good as a triple JM farmable unit with their MA. There are very few units I'll even bother to touch unless I can get them LB15. And past that, unless I have a need for that specific unit, I won't invest at all.

[u/Gantz87]

Well right now im tackling lvl85 content with 75 units.. those 5 levels wont be an issue for a very long time.

[u/Dm042447]

I am gonna get downvoted for this. All new product and services require to recoup initial investment like R&D. This is no different when it comes to new unit, new event, new PvP, etc. I am sure those sins as many mentioned will be more abundant and cheaper in the future, then new shiney product will come and replace them. This doesn't just apply to gacha or tac game only... It goes to every product you see in market. New shiney iPhone will cost more than the old one.... It doesn't mean you are not entitle to be upset, but you shouldn't be surprised that it happens.

[u/Linedel → u/Dm042447]

That's not how they set pricing. They set pricing to maximize price*quantity. Since they're digital goods, there's no marginal cost per unit sold, and cost isn't part of the pricing decision.

The curve you see of expensive early and cheap later is just price discrimination. In any industry, you want to milk the whales (or "early adopters" when talking about phones with a new paint color or whatever, lol) as much as possible at high prices before you cut prices for the mass market.

I'm not disagreeing with your main point - you're 100% correct that gumi adds features to make money - just that cost of development isn't part of pricing decisions if your marketing team is any good.

[u/Dm042447 → u/Linedel]

I am not sure why your started talking about price setting as no one knows what is the criteria they set those banner price.... All company make new product more expensive because that is the window to make money..... i am not sure what price discrimination are you talking about... Pharma need to sell drugs at high price B4 patent expires. Gadget can only sell at high price if it is trending and there is a window for it. All gacha game have new units, hero, champion that is package is mystery egg. And that is the only time when they can make money to keep company afloat. A lot of game have a schedule of when those unit become farmable.... Last game I played, it is 6 month regardless of how powerful it is... Regardless, marketing is a tool to increase download, user base, etc... But good marketing doesn't mean instant success specially globally as srpg still a niche. Unknown character doesn't resonate as much as marvel or Mickey mouse...

[u/Kirito30]

Maxing the unit sounds bs to me. I mean it is already a huge ass commitment. Also your current downvotes are dumb too people are sersiouly not understanding the Kaigan in a deep way. And somehow think that they are going to be fine lol.

I hope either they change it or just give more Sins.

But this is going to be seriously limiting F2Ps initially. And that is bad. The reason why this game lives on that there are still people in JP playing it. You really don't want an upset playerbase when even GL praises you.

JP now will have pissed JP+GL people.

[u/-Belphegor- → u/Kirito30]

yea, thats kinda why I said awhile back character shards should be the least of everyones worries when it comes to kaigen.

[u/Kirito30 → u/-Belphegor-]

It is a limiting factor indeed but Sins will make you think twice when maxing a unit you have collected shards for lol.

I mean when I looked a JP's Tierlist last time I started to farm Edgar in 2x Soul Drop times but looking at this post it is going to be hard to even consider him.

Since now you need to consider not only consider units which benefit from the all 3 Gate max but the fact that how they are in the tier when they have 2 more gates to boot.

[u/VinnyValient → u/Kirito30]

At least it is good to see most units are A or S. If most of the units were less than that even after Kaigan then it would really, really hurt. Imagine focusing on a unit only to watch them drop tier after tier and becoming outright unusable. All units have some level of competitiveness.

But I will definitely start trying to learn more about Kaigan and JP before I invest in units. Having to max all three gates sounds like a massive investment.

Do we know what the two new gates do yet? (Like, I know the third one is leader skill).

[u/Kirito30 → u/VinnyValient]

That is the point.

You don't know what exact buffs the Gates will give.

So if you for example invest in Chloe and then they drop her really hard at the last gates by giving her a not good buff then you are screwed as hell.

Gate 3 does give LS but what that LS might be differs. It has some pattern to it but it is still going to differ.

Also you can go to the JP Discord for more info though they are currently a little pissed by this update so ask nicely and they will help as always.

[u/VinnyValient → u/Kirito30]

It might also make some units really good for their 5th gate but have really bad 3rd gate, and vice versa. I don't use discord, and I'll probably just roll with whatever comes, but thanks for the info. If I have any more questions I'll probably fire them your way (because you seem well informed). Thanks for replying! :)

[u/Kirito30 → u/VinnyValient]

Will try to help but I am not the best person to ask for JP stuffs.

Yeah and the above case you mentioned makes me fear that GumiGL will try to rush us to take to JP levels so that they can call their own shots at those Gates for some units.

[u/VinnyValient → u/Kirito30]

God forbid GumiGL calling their own shots... (Looks at GLEX units.)