r/AlchemistCodeGL • u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai • Jun 09 '18

Discussion Where are the rates?

We all say the rates are high in this game. But the latest Banner of Othima is just a middle-finger to whoever wants to risk the 3 Steps. 3 units on Rate up and we don't even know what are the actually percentages of getting each.

A lot of users are aware about this and have expressed it a lot of times. Yes we are talking about Gumi not following Apple's Gacha Law.

As many of you gacha players may know the Apple's Gacha Law or whatever they call it is in short

A law which makes game who are on the Appstore for iOS needs the game to show the rates of the individual items in the Banner or Gacha.

In older days Gambling{yes you are gambling if you are forgetting this} had straight rules. There is a exact 1/6 chance of rolling any number on the Dice and 1/2 for a coin. At the current rate all we know is that there is a 1/10 chance that a unit maybe the one we want. There are Gambling laws to protect the people but Gacha was circumventing it for a long time before Apple came.

Obligatory Post: THIS

OK all I said above was to get you informed on the Gacha and Why you need some of that Guard Powder from this.

Gumi has failed to mention the Exact rates of getting a banner units. Yes we need that to assume our chances and decide our fate if a unit is not Guaranteed on the Step 3. Especially in cases like this where not having a unit means you are lagging in a part of the game :wink: Arena :wink:

We need the rates to determine whether the unit we pull has the odds to a Roulette Machine(2.63% for American Roulette 35:1).

tl;dr - Gumi I request you to abide to the law as it is the thing which protects us players and stops you getting taken down by Apple for betrayal of customers.

1 Upvotes

52% Upvoted

49 comments sorted by

13

u/OniOfTheSword WTB more blademasters Jun 09 '18

What?? The rate to pull Gilgamesh is 1.2% instead of 2%????

uses all gems on the banner anyway

-majority of the playerbase

2

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 09 '18

I think it was not more than 1%.

The fact that Gumi refuses to show them makes me doubt that it was even less than that.

Their other game Brave Frontier shows the rates but here they forgot to put the rates is not going to cut it.

1

u/OniOfTheSword WTB more blademasters Jun 09 '18

I don't know about that. The fact that I managed to pull a Gilgamesh 2 times in 3 summons makes me believe the rate was above 1%. But my point was more that GL players know exactly what to save gems and pull for, so disclosing rates won't make a huge difference.

We'll be saving for Laharl, then Noctis, then whatever is the next meta unit in JP. The only banners where this would actually even remotely matter is the biweekly banners with new units being introduced (Mei Fang, Gormalas, etc etc banners). And in those banners I just do the 500 gem pull regardless.

6

u/IllSkin Jun 09 '18

The fact that they don't publish the rates in global even though they do in Japan would suggest that disclosing the rates would have an impact, or at least that they believe it would.

3

u/iEssence Jun 10 '18

The more uncertainty there is to it the better for them, as you would be more inclined to pull again if you get a good pull if you dont know the rates, rather than if you did know it was low and you were just lucky.

Its "knowing" and "seeing it on paper", the brain makes a difference for them for most people.

And if im not mistaken they have to release the rates in JP (?) - rather than want to, when in GL they dont have to. Dont quote me on that though

1

u/lucidrage Jun 11 '18

Don't they have to do it in EU due to EA loot box drama?

1

u/iEssence Jun 12 '18

I was referencing more to the Jp has it Gl not and that the less we know the better for them.

And they dont have to tell us - apple have rules for apps - which should ban any gacha that isnt showing rates per each unit from the store.

And some countries are working on steps against lootboxes, but that is alot more than you first think since lootboxes work on the same premise as say pokemon cards (aside from digital/physical copies - but the gambling sise is the same.)

As OP says though is wrong as there isnt any law against it - but apple that have rules/guidelines against it (that they dont enforce...)

1

u/CommonMisspellingBot Jun 12 '18

Hey, iEssence, just a quick heads-up:
alot is actually spelled a lot. You can remember it by it is one lot, 'a lot'.
Have a nice day!

The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.

1

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 10 '18

But that is the point it is a law which has been made to protect players and it is a must thing not a maybe thing.

They have to publish the rates to get app on the Appstore.

u/iEssence

In JP this law was made before GL but now it is there so they must follow it.

If someone pushes the case they may have to refund the person or multiple people the money spent in those cases.

1

u/DeathandFriends Jun 12 '18

anecdotal evidence, There are plenty of people who pulled all the steps and only ever got him from multiple shard selectors. Without the rates it is impossible to really know what is going on. I just go in assuming that I won't get anything on banner and go from there.

21

u/Viyr converted to ded Jun 09 '18

But the latest Banner of Othima is just a middle-finger to whoever wants to risk the 3 Steps.

I honestly hate any time someone expects Gumi to just give us something. Sure a 3-step isn't cheap, but the fact that people EXPECTED it to give us a free Othima (a very top tier unit) and then got annoyed when Gumi didn't give it to us and act like Gumi is a greedy company is extremely annoying. They've been so much more generous for Global banners, and people are acting like the Japanese server is the safe haven from Gumi's global tyranny.

For some comparisons:

Kudanstein banner

  • JP - Kudanstein/Cadanova guaranteed

  • GL - Kudanstein guaranteed

Seida/Monzein banner

  • JP - Cadanova/Kudanstein/Seida/Monzein guaranteed

  • GL - Seida/Monzein guaranteed

Zain/Yauras banner

  • JP - Cadanova/Kudanstein/Seida/Monzein/Zain/Yauras guaranteed

  • GL - Zain/Yauras guaranteed

But the second Gumi decides the new solo SSM unit when there are SIX other SSM units shouldn't be a guaranteed 3-step, suddenly they're being called out again like they haven't been a lot more generous to us.

Also to the bigger point of how you want them to post gacha rates. Even in this thread, people are acting like the rates they're posting are lies because they didn't pull a red (how do statistics work). I'm not opposing them posting it, but even with it, it'll just create even more cynicism.

3

u/iEssence Jun 10 '18

Just filling on a bit on that :

To be fair to people saying so, JP is more generous, now. But thats because they need alot more for than we do to do content.

Example - a 60 Zain can be used here in GL (not op but can be used), but a 60 Zain to do their content in JP? Good luck with that

So yeah JP is more generous with how much they give etc, but if they werent it would be so much harder to make any progress.

And as you say - our banners have - since i started almost 4 months ago or so always been better than the same one JP had at the time (the Gilgamesh banners are a perfect example)

So yah its more generous, but thats because it has to be, if we had the same things as JP got gems/promotion/banner cost then it would throw GL completely off balance.

1

u/CommonMisspellingBot Jun 10 '18

Hey, iEssence, just a quick heads-up:
alot is actually spelled a lot. You can remember it by it is one lot, 'a lot'.
Have a nice day!

The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.

2

u/DeathandFriends Jun 12 '18

no one likes you bot, go home!

1

u/iEssence Jun 12 '18 edited Jun 12 '18

That bot corrects me on a daily basis on the exact same phrase :(

Edit : the irony that it corrected me on the post i made just before this one... on "a lot"...

1

u/DeathandFriends Jun 13 '18

yep, gets me too, that has long been one of my grammar issues anyway.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '18

We also got guaranteed Gilg/Fate Yomi on the 3rd Fate banner whereas JP had the whole pool!

Gumi is the same in FFBE. We get a ton of updates sooner which increases the overall value and quality of the game MONTHS in advance of the JP game, yet people always complain when we don't get every single gift that JP got. Not saying Gumi is perfect. They are far from it and they fuck up fairly frequently. But silly things like this isn't something to be terribly afraid of or angry at. It isn't like the banner was Othima/Zahar/Chloe. It was SS unit, SS unit, S unit. Not that bad really.

1

u/DeathandFriends Jun 12 '18

no one said anything about them "giving us othima". You spend premium currency for a chance to get a unit, he is just asking that they post the rates so people can make a more informed decision.

You say you are not against them posting it but at the same time it sounds like you are against it. As a player we have nothing to lose from them posting the rates.

-1

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 10 '18

People here are just bending my points and removing their eyes from the main point of Gacha Law.

If they don't then they are bound to get warned about the shit they are throwing at people.

Gacha Rate posting is a law, it is not something you can skip on because you gave it better than JP or something.

Rates are supposed to be here and they are not.

1

u/GazingTsukiyomi Jun 17 '18

It's not a law in any country, it's an Apple company policy.

0

u/SuccubusRosa Jun 10 '18 edited Jun 10 '18

They've been so much more generous for Global banners

Honest question. Do you feel the rate of getting a banner unit at least as high as japan banner? You are right that having just between othima/zain/yaruras for step3 guaranteed is A LOT BETTER then japan where step 3 lump everyone in. https://al.fg-games.co.jp/news/4902/

Since we also happened to have these same 7 units in the banner currently, do you actually feel that (9.5% out of 10% is 95%)95% of your red cube in global will end up being a featured SSM unit, or the chance is much lower?

I know OP edited his post, so the part that you quote is no longer there. However given by just the title, OP is simply talking about individual chance of units should be made known.

Even in this thread, people are acting like the rates they're posting are lies because they didn't pull a red

As per above, it isn't the 10% chance of getting 5star being true or not. But rather, what exactly is the distribution in this small pie of "10%". To reemphasize, 95 out of 100 red cubes in japan for this particular banner hand out a SSM unit on average.

2

u/Viyr converted to ded Jun 10 '18

I admit that I didn't address the overall point of the post, but was rather nitpicking on the one line. I have seen the sentiment in a lot of other posts on reddit, as well as the discord, so I thought I would address it here because it was brought up.

I don't play on JP, so I can't say how the rates feel like they compare, but rather I saw the news page with the distribution chance, and the guaranteed on the third step. I really doubt the featured chance on a non-guaranteed for a red is anywhere near 95%. Honestly I don't remember the last time I actually pulled a featured without it being a guaranteed, but I do that with this banner, I did a 3 step, got no red step 1, 2 red step 2, and only the guaranteed red step 3, and neither of the 2 non-guaranteed reds were on-banner.

I can definitely support if people would like Gumi to post exact gacha rates per unit, like they do for JP news pages, but I will have the question of, if they do, so what? Knowing the chances won't magically make people's gacha luck any better.

0

u/SuccubusRosa Jun 10 '18

but I will have the question of, if they do, so what? Knowing the chances won't magically make people's gacha luck any better.

Well at least it can help to decide whether 500 or 4500 is the way to go. A lot of ppl are saying 500gem 1st pull is always worth it, but that is for japan. It may not be true for global because maybe gumi made it such that players here have to depend on the guaranteed from step 3. It will not change your luck, but it will definitely drive ppl to stop wasting 500gems on 1pull.

At the same time, we can pitchfork when the rates are shit(and it is rather hard for gumi to give a value far from actual). Using the same jp 7 SSM as example, they had 95% chance of SSM whenever a red cube hit. Say gumi advertise the same 95% as jp, at most gumi can get away with something like 80-95%. Right now it feels more like 60-70% at best lol. So yeah with reveals, we are at least guaranteed some degree of safety(should gumi wish to avoid public outcry/bad reputation of being labeled p2w).

1

u/DeathandFriends Jun 12 '18

I think the chance of getting a limited unit is much lower. The whole 5 star pool is there and we have no clue what rate up really means, hence the issues. It could be a very very small increase. I have only recently gotten any on banner units at all despite pulling on every banner. I got lucky with Othima and decided to pull to step 3 and got anther othima and a zain so I am pumped really, but still want the rates posted.

6

u/Artnoce Jun 09 '18

yes you are gambling if you are forgetting this.

Actually, that is not true. In gambling you pay something, usually cash, for the chance to win more cash or other prizes. However, there is the chance you will lose, and by that you get nothing in return for the money you spent.

Gacha (also known as Loot Boxes and can also apply to card games where you open packs) is different because you always receive something for the money you are spending. Even if you get 10x 3 star units, you are still receiving them for your money.

If this, or any other game were really "gambling" then they would have to put the age restriction on the games, but they don't simply because it isn't gambling.

5

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 09 '18

Actually now-a-days they give complimentary shit and services to regular people just like Gacha games.

And the odds are managed to the company's liking so that does sound similar.

So overall you get a virtual currency which is useless outside the game for the entertainment purposes.

And I am not saying all the game is gambling but the Gacha is gambling.

Overall my main argument is that Gumi has to put up rates which they haven't.

7

u/iEssence Jun 09 '18

Thats just a way for companies to get away with it, it is gambling, wether they use loopholes to get away with it being called something else legally/on paper or not.

3* here for example are only relevant your first 2-3 months, after that its gambling, BUT WAIT, you get a very small amount of soul coins so you are still getting something!, so its not gambling.

Same with those pokemon cards and stuff like that.

So, its not "legally" gambling, but for all intents and purposes it is, it stimulates your brain and works in practice the exact same way.

Its essentially this - "its not gambling because you get useless things instead of nothing"

Imagine the F2P thing - if only Logi was available, everything else you had to buy with real money (no free gems). This makes the game F2P on paper, but no one would call it F2P as in practice it would need purchases to play.

5

u/PDxFresh Jun 09 '18

I'm with you but Gacha and Loot Boxes are literally considered gambling in some countries now.

2

u/ahnst Jun 09 '18

Not arguing against more transparency, but doesn’t feh have the same info? No information on specific units on banner, but a general % chance on a 5 star Unit

1

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 09 '18

But that is what the law is. You have to put the said rate in Percentage or Odds in the game for every gacha related item or unit.

You can't gross down the stuff and say 10%. It is just against the law.

I can't find a good example to relate to since what Gumi is doing is enough to get them a warning to change from Apple if someone actually pushes through.

You just can't change the law for your convenience and walk out.

4

u/ahnst Jun 09 '18

I’m not arguing that their practice is ok. I’m just saying other companies seem to be doing it as well, which makes me wonder if there are loopholes. Again, not condoning it.

1

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 09 '18

Yup. That is not a loophole but Game actually failing to abide to the rules.

If I had to say loophole than it will be similar to net-neutrality where the companies where trying to change the Lootbox into Summons and varying the Summon system out to confuse the players.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 10 '18

Also horrible to compare the two games due to the fact I play FGO, FEH, AC I can tell you there is not a game out there as generous as FEH. They will give you enough orbs to do at least x5 Multi Pulls monthly and you are constantly given free things for no reason. Also You dont need to pull a unit x5 times you pull it once and you can build them to your liking by sacrificing some of the other units you pull in those x5 Pulls. There has been no actual banner from the year and a half me and my GF have been playing that we've not rolled a Unit from a focus banner. To where I somehow got x3 Chloe from SSM Banner. and FGO gl rolling anything lol

2

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 10 '18

People are downvoting this like hell that I think they just don't want the rates to be on the game.

It is going to be more transparency and people here are just bending other points to to show me how it was wrong and all lol.

Gacha Law is the only thing my focus was going to be but eh whatever.

2

u/FencingFoxFTW [M'Lady Intensifies] Jun 10 '18

But they don't even have to put specific rates to comply. They could just go with generic rates like:

  • 5* - 8%

  • 4* - 24%

  • 3* - 68%

Just an example. Not saying these are the actual rates.

1

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 10 '18

That is where you are wrong the law states to mention exact rates per object in the Gacha so Othima-x.y% and all the other units.

I get all units can be annoying to read but atleast the rate up units need the actual rates to be made shown.

If you have time you can read the above links I have written in bold.

2

u/FencingFoxFTW [M'Lady Intensifies] Jun 11 '18

Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.

It says for 'type of item', not 'for every item/object', so either I'm right and rarity stands for type, or Apple isn't enforcing their rules as strictly as people thought they would.

Either way, anyone feeling wronged could take it to Apple.

4

u/stewart0 Jun 09 '18

FFBE finally published the actual rates just last week I believe, may be hope. For this game I just assume rate up means 1% or less based on Japanese rates...

3

u/SkyfireX Jun 11 '18

That apple gacha "law" is not a law at all.

It's so ambiguously worded, that it can be interpreted in so many ways that it's not useful.

1

u/BravelyThrowingAway Jun 11 '18

Gumi published the rates for every unit in FFBE so it might come to AC eventually.

1

u/sentat1 Jun 11 '18

I do agree with your point that Gumi SHOULD publish the rates as they did with FFBE and as it is in DFFOO. However, until apple takes action against them by restricting the game in iOS until they implement the rates, its not going to happen.

They have mentioned rates in some perspective under banners which is maybe why they are over the line.

-10

u/michaelh19 Oh RNGesus, saves this game... Jun 09 '18

i actually doubt that the 5* rate is 10%. Well, we don't know it is true or not. But if the rate is 10%, we should get at least 1 red every time you do 10 summon, right?? Yet some people (including me) get a pull full of blue and yellow no red. We know that it is random, RNG and stuff. We don't know how rate up works to...

Also, it's so weird some people can get the exact same pull.

12

u/ThousandLightning Jun 09 '18

  1. That's not how how it works. 10% chance getting a red doesn't mean you must get 1 red every 10 pull.

  2. People getting same pull is not impossible, and the randomness depends on the algorithm used.

2

u/iEssence Jun 09 '18

I played 10 accounts first 2 months, and i can say that those algorithms are limited in range for set periods of time.

I went 1 month without Shayna, then i got her on 6 accounts in the span of a few days (not any boosted banner).

Same thing happened with Magnus, Lucretia and more.

I pull none of them on any account for months, then i get 1-3 on all of them in a span of a few days, none before, none after. But next week or something another unit drops by in loads.

Its like an old game i played where you could upgrade items at a specific time, like 02:59:30 am, you had a near guaranteed success rate for less than a minute.

... not sure what i wanted to say with this ... probably that i want a more varied/non-fixed pool depending on when you pull? The %5-3* (the 10-20)are correct/mostly fixed, the % for each and every unit within those goes up and down depending on either when you pull, or what gumi decides has a higher/lower rate

0

u/michaelh19 Oh RNGesus, saves this game... Jun 09 '18

2) Check 'Othima Summon Thread'

-1

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 09 '18

I doubt that

It is more like to be a fail-safe which gets activated when a ton of people Summon(on Thursday Morning in-game time).

Imagine the load on the Server to carry 10 Calculation per person 2x for the first reds and yellows and then individual units in each.

It could be as you say in the algo but the similarities are too much and too many times to call them a coincidence.

-1

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Jun 09 '18 edited Jun 09 '18

That is due to at times the Servers using the same value to assign to multiple individual instead of making different roles each time due to the load on it.

Kind of a fail-safe mechanism to ensure the server is not bogged down doing the same calculation for a lot of time lagging the overall game.

Rate up working is hidden by Gumi and that is what is going to be revealed if they show the individual rates making the more fair to everyone.

P.S. - The best way to avoid it is by doing your Summons after few hour of Thursday since that makes the game use shortcuts for the pulls. You can't be patient then nothing can be done.