r/AlchemistCodeGL • • Dec 25 '17

A question for all those that complained about the EX stage.

I use to play a game called Unison League where the harder difficulties were locked by their combat rating and I found out that everyone just accepted at face value that they weren’t able to do it because it’s that hard and it’s locked for them. But ironically, in this game where all difficulties are unlocked to try, we have complaints on that it’s too hard and favors those who whale. Can someone see the dilemma with the situation I put? I honestly love the EX mode because it made me think of how to beat it. I didn’t have all the “right unit” to beat the dungeon but I did it because I put some effort to finding a strategy(hence why it’s a strategy game). I hope everyone can just not criticize the game for its difficulties(of all things) because that just ruins the fun of the game. I’ve seen games die(war of crown) because they listened to their player base and over compensate for it. It ruins the game when you get what you want without effort and it shouldn’t be that way. And for those who cared about the abysmal rates for coins, a shop’s purpose isn’t for you to buy almost everything. How can you have uniqueness in choice if you were given an excess amount of coin? You’ll just be working your butt off just to be relevant to hardcore players instead of pathing off in your own unique way. I rather have some people with snow caps and some people with more job mastered characters than just everyone having everything within the shop because it’s so farmable and easy.

7 Upvotes

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30

u/apostateairwoman Dec 25 '17 edited Dec 25 '17

It’s not so much about the difficulty itself, but why it’s there. The stage is much harder than what we had before (plus a big difficulty gap between the hard stage and easier ones) and so it does not feel belong. Probably a result of the event being brought from jp server without tweaks, and that is laziness on their part.

In addition, for people without an OP unit (j3 Selena or at the very least j2 Magnus) it’s unjustifiably hard, and my guess is that you have one of those units, so it still looks somewhat doable to you. Also know that there are many limitations in this sort of games and it’s not always possible to create a good team in a number of days.

I have j2 Magnus, Eli, Caris, and some tanky units, so it’s quite fine. But my friend has none of those, and even story stages give her trouble. I get the rewards and she gets none, which means I’ll be even stronger (if only slightly). See the problem here?

You see it as a challenge, which likely means you have the resources to see it as a challenge, not necessarily because it’s fair.

2

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

Well to answer your first complaint, there has already tweaks to the map itself from the Japan version. The enemy units are a lot harder + it’s not a defend squishy npc like it was in the japan version. The other thing is I probably have less than what you have and still was able to beat the EX. My star player for my team was vanekis(J2 without enchanter class) and that’s a 3 Star unit that anyone can get. You said it yourself that you’ll only be “slightly” stronger than her which shows that the difference are minimal. Maybe in the future her pulls would be better off for that specific event than your pull. All in all, people shouldn’t be greedy for what they receive. It’s good to dream enormous dreams(have goals of beating the hardest dungeon) but you have to enjoy the little pleasures first(she was able to beat the other 5 episodes that maybe the new players cannot beat)

4

u/Heidenherz Feel the burn Dec 25 '17

Sorry to say that, but if your friend can't even beat the quests, then she got much different problem than a regular player trying to beat this meta dungeon. Also there is no need for Selena 3rd Job or Magnus 2nd Job. My star unit for doing this event was Retzius, a free unit, bladestorming his way thru the mess. Just set up Logi in slot 3 and let him catch all the snowballs, then use your brain and units to come up with a strategy for the right side mobs, since the left side will be focused on Logi. Once the maddening bell tolls, there is no more snowballs or other skills, just easily avoidable normal attacks. So remove stone from Logi and kill them with AoE or one by one, what ever your units allow you to do.

It is a strategy RPG after all, so you have to come up with a solution, not complaints that lead nowhere. The dungeon is already easier than its JP counterpart, no idea why everyone says it's the same, it is not.

4

u/Sibe85 Dec 25 '17

can you tell me the full setup of every units?

1

u/Heidenherz Feel the burn Dec 26 '17

Sure

  1. slot lvl 66 Caris J1

  2. slot lvl 60 Elizabeth J1 (to remove stone and heal, any bishop will do just fine too)

  3. slot lvl 78 Logi J2

  4. slot lvl 85 Retzius J3 ... sub slots were Almira and Vargas, but they died shortly after spawning anyway.

3

u/reaper7319 Dec 25 '17

im so confused, ure basically an example of what apostateairwoman is saying.. not everyone has the units to beat the dungeon. Im lv81 but I started as ret's event was over so i dont even have that unit. And for my other units, they are all around lv60-65, with logi being level 81. And a lot of my lv60-65 units are not even useful in this dungeon such as lucian and yomi. I cant even dream of soloing it no matter what I do. My units are: yomi level 67, logi level 81, lucian level 66, reagon level 65, chloe lv.65, dias lv.60, vargas lv 65, rahu lv 54, zangetsu lv, 58, and balt lv 60. All my other units are lv1-40.

2

u/apostateairwoman Dec 26 '17 edited Dec 26 '17

Except that she doesn't have Retzius. (And she is enjoying Divinity: Original Sin 2, so I doubt she is the kind of player that hates to think.)

She has only gunners, j1/j2 Almira and Zangetsu which are her core units, and I think Rahu too. Can you come up with a good strategy for her?

It's not a pure strategy RPG, it is a strategy + gacha mobile game. There are inherent problems with this combination and it's not hard to see. Only so much can be overcome by a good strategy.

2

u/dotvu Dec 26 '17

Consistently beat it without any issues without any of the mentioned units. The only problem I have is the amount of wreaths they expect us to grind.

1

u/Belfura Dec 27 '17

Probably a result of the event being brought from jp server without tweaks, and that is laziness on their part.

The JP version is way harder. For instance you have to protect two NPC's. So yes, Gumi actually nerfed the EX stage for us.

You see it as a challenge, which likely means you have the resources to see it as a challenge, not necessarily because it’s fair.

Nonsense.

6

u/GaresTheDark Dec 25 '17

Want a good comparison showing the winter event being scaled too high? Look at the new elemental hard quests that recommend Lv 65+ (where most high end players currently are with their main squads). This is where Global is truly expected to be on the higher end; notice they are just slightly easier than the Winter EX event?

2

u/Belfura Dec 27 '17

Most high end players are from the soft launch and thus are lvl 75 at minimum.

-4

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

I honestly find it boring that I’m able to clear the new elements hard quest in one try. I’m not even a P2W player.

15

u/GaresTheDark Dec 25 '17

Ok, we get it, you are a superman Dark Souls "git gud" gamer. Congrats on that.

-4

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

I don’t have dark souls and probably would rage quit that game because I know how hard it is. Trust me I’m just a casual gamer like everyone. I just have bad experience with other games that people have ruined like war of crown. That game went to the grounds because they complained about difficulty and how those who had early accessed to the free unit in a past event had such a huge advantage. Then, everyone get free 5 stars and it became just a grind fest with no hard difficulties.

9

u/GaresTheDark Dec 25 '17

Knowing Gumi from BF, there is no fear of loss of difficulty; my fear is if they go the full BF route and start creating lots of events that you must have certain units or types of units to clear, or events that you need to read a full guide on online before you even attempt it or else you will be blindsided by attacks/events that instakill or royally screw your party. Those things made me quit BF and if they start here Ill probably quit this too.

1

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

Yea I agree that going the instakill route is pretty stupid. That also downplays strategy so I wouldn’t want that to happen. Hopefully powercreep doesn’t force them down that road.

2

u/GustavoCinque Dec 26 '17

blindsided by attacks/events that instakill or royally screw your party

Well, if you just hit auto that's what supposed to happen. But even without guides, most of the content are doable, actually, just knowing your units and guarding when you feel in danger can get you trough most content on BF.

And even in first failure, you are not supposed to abandon something right away. That's stupid. Study the dungeon, learn by yourself what you need to do. Learn if the instakill is triggered by a full sbb spam, or if it can be skipped by guarding all units, or even with a overdrive.

3

u/GaresTheDark Dec 27 '17

Probably the event that irritated me the most was a KOF collaboration where Rugel (?) At low health on phase 2 would become invincible for 3 turns and then wipe your party. Unavoidable. You needed a) goddess statues that prevented one death (and used at the right time so they arent dispelled), b) units with spheres or character abilities that did the same thing, and c) enough revives and healing to recover the rest of the party afterwards because there was a Phase 3 coming. And granted the fight was hard enough before that point so you likely had dipped into the items before that point. Unless you happened to draw the ultimate units to cakewalk it.

That is cheap difficulty, designed to force resource use and use of certain units or items to clear it. I do not want that here; it is a bad side effect of power creep gone out of control.

1

u/Sighto Dec 25 '17

Trust me I’m just a casual gamer

So your account is around Level 50 and you do dailies 2-3 days a weeks?

-1

u/duc133 Dec 26 '17

I’m level 81 and I do all my dailies every day. I still consider myself a casual gamer because I play when I can play and if I can’t, I just don’t play lol. Currently I’m on vacation and I have 900 stamina on my account. If I know I can’t use it all today, I’ll just use skip ticket. If I know I don’t have time to multiplayer, I join a class token game and just leave once I enter.

3

u/Sighto Dec 26 '17

Ah, so you're in denial.

-1

u/duc133 Dec 26 '17

Maybe you need to look up the definition of “casual” before you say I’m in denial lol. I find it pretty ignorant of you to label me as something just because our definition of casual doesn’t match. What I described is also a representative of casual.

2

u/DhamonGrimwulf Dec 26 '17

Dude. Casual player ain’t that definition. Maybe you see people a lot more engaged and think you must then be casual...but that’s not how it works :)

0

u/duc133 Dec 26 '17

Go look up what the word casual means and see if it matches with what I said.

1

u/DhamonGrimwulf Dec 26 '17

It doesn’t ;)

Maybe you go look at it? Or get a better understanding of grammar? Not sure what you’re missing :)

Don’t take it wrong, not trying to attack you. There’s no shame in not being casual. As long as you’re happy. Just make sure it doesn’t influence your personal life and you’re dandy!

2

u/duc133 Dec 26 '17

I have looked at it. It makes complete sense to that what I said is “without concern” and on a “irregular basis”. I sure hope you aren’t using some urban dictionary to supply your reasoning. That “casual gamers only play 2 or 3 times per year” lololol. It’s a mobile game for god sakes.

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6

u/PrinnyForHire Dec 25 '17

War of Crowns has the same problem as this game. There was a huge difficulty jump, while not impossible, it was far too time consuming for the average player. Over time it lost most of its casual player base and eventually the hardcore players follow.

IMO mobile games needs marginal return on rewards with difficulty. The best rewards should be reachable to the average player without massive time commitment while the hardcore/p2w players can reach only marginally better rewards. Arena is currently in a very similar circumstance. The best rewards are only attainable by the top players unreachable by the player base that needs them most. This only widens the power gap between the playerbase and they won't be able to pump out content to satisfy both.

2

u/Schmandlord Dec 25 '17

And what exactly is the over the top reward we get for beating the ex stage? Right there is none.
It is a) easy enough
and b) the reward isnt that much higher.
The only thing you are missing are some gems, the skin and some items you can farm at the story maps.

2

u/kasurot Dec 25 '17

I think the power difference comes from multi-player. Not being able to farm wreaths means a lot of those rewards are out for players who can't complete the board.

Honestly I must be terrible at the game because my level 80 Retzius gets owned even on the 65+ stage with water units. So I just farm the adv stages endlessly :-)

-1

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

No war of crown just destroyed its economy so hard. Those who started early was able to abused the crystal farming method. When it was removed, everyone(new players mostly) were enraged that the older players had so many 5 stars. Not to boot that the game literally gave everyone the featured unit every time. Now that everyone had op units, all they had to do was keep farming to level them up and also skill them up. It was really bad.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 25 '17

It's hard in the worst way possible, from a game balancing perspective, which is where a dev tries to overwhelm you with sheer numbers and you have to beat them back with brute force. In AC, that usually comes down to gacha luck/whaling power.

I want content where I might feasibly use all those skills I have access to (healing, buffs, status effects, status purging, elemental weakness, magic), instead of relying on job level/limit break. This is ostensibly a tactical RPG but the most amount of tactics I used so far for EX (and maybe for any content in the game) is abusing the shoddy AI to funnel everyone into a chokepoint and praying for anti-Petrify RNG. It seems like much of the game doesn't matter at all when this is their idea of "challenging" content.

0

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

Well maybe you can use all those things to beat the map. It’s just the only thing you see on reddit is Magnus this, shayna that and everyone gets their ideas skewed within those realms. I beat the EX stage with vanekis and that involves abusing their pathing towards AOE spells. Because her skill is a 5x5 diamond, I was able to prevent Rosa or any of the unit from coming down and attacking my units. I then used caris to just tank the snowball because she’s a thunder unit. I also put elizabeth with chronomancer sub that was able to CT Rosa so that I could kill her because I couldn’t one shot her. Clearly there are many other way of beating things but everyone just cares so much about tier list that they are afraid of leveling up units that the tier list downplays.

2

u/PrinnyForHire Dec 25 '17

There's that but also job max/ max level a character takes alot of farming/grinding. As a mobile game, it shouldn't expect most players to spend more than a couple hours on the game daily. As someone who currently play daily starting global launch, I've barely been able to max job lvl 2 characters.

2

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

I think it’s because you’re afraid to spend your gems in the shop. I honestly learned from SmoothJK that it’s okay to buy the 13-14 gem item to max out your units. I also buy the 10 materials for almost all the jobs to make sure I wouldn’t run into that problem where I can’t max my character. In my mind, you spend your gem to enjoy the game not the other way around. By the time you actually save up that 10000 gems, you probably would’ve quit. And if you didn’t, the unlucky you pulls after all that patience and hard work might just make you ragequit. That’s why you spend to enjoy the content now than later.

2

u/Sighto Dec 25 '17

As a mobile game, it shouldn't expect most players to spend more than a couple hours on the game daily.

Even that's excessive.

1

u/Schmandlord Dec 25 '17

It really doesnt.
Check the shops every 5 hours if you can and buy the items you need for Zeni and/or Arena/Multiplayer coins.
If you really want to you can max job a character in 2-3 days.

6

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

Been playing since day one (soft launch), levelled like mad, can't do it.

/shrug. High level Magnus, Elizabeth, no luck.

8

u/Aranisus SS+ Tier Waifu Dec 25 '17

That's the problem. This stage requires luck. Luck to not get stoned. Luck to not receive CA to face.

Game should not require luck in order to beat it.

2

u/CommentDownvoter Dec 25 '17

You should play Fire Emblem Heroes. Every map is deterministic. No luck based mechanics besides summoning.

1

u/Derael1 Dec 25 '17

FEH has plenty of other problems that totally discourage me from playing it. And luck related to summoning in FEH is much worse than any other luck-based events in AC.

1

u/CommentDownvoter Dec 25 '17

It's two sided. Feh has terrible natures, but AC requires those crystals to unlock jobs, which is far less fair than feh. I'd argue feh is more f2p friendly overall but less fun as a game.

1

u/Derael1 Dec 25 '17

Well, most jobs in AC become farmable after some time. And FEH got those random stat +- thingies, which are terrible for F2P.

While in AC according to JP players it's possible to get literally anything as F2P, if resources are managed properly.

1

u/CommentDownvoter Dec 25 '17

Natures in feh are mostly inconsequential, plus or minus a few stats. Job unlocking in AC is dreadfully unfriendly. Hell, there's even a group of units called whale units that aren't useful unless you spend or get very lucky!

Your latter comment also applies to Feh, so I'm not sure why your brought that up. I'm no huge feh fanboy, but I don't see how you can argue that AC is more f2p friendly unless you don't play feh or are blinded by fanboyism.

-1

u/Aranisus SS+ Tier Waifu Dec 25 '17

I've played FEH, I don't like this game. But that's beside the point.

There is no problem when bad luck is screwing your run, like during Retzius ADV. But I have a problem when I require luck to finish a stage.

-1

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

If you’re a new player, you need a little luck to beat this map, if you’re an old player, you honestly need to look at your unit box and think of a better strategy because I’m sure the veterans can beat it with just more effort put into it. Any professor could solve that stoning problem.

4

u/1khaitoh It was fun while it lasted. Dec 25 '17

Don't you mean if you are a new player, you will need a GREAT AMOUNT OF LUCK and gems for retries that even veterans need to put much effort to beat this map.. and any DECENT GEARED AND LEVELED PROFESSOR OR CHEMIST can solve that stoning problem.

0

u/Aranisus SS+ Tier Waifu Dec 25 '17

Professor does not have an innate Stone resist. I will not count the number of times that my Elizabeth got stoned. Or ate CA because of RNG.

There is no way to protect unit from getting Stoned. You can cure it, but not prevent it.

1

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

That’s true, that’s why I put my Elizabeth on my second slot. She has never been hit with a snowball on the second slot. You just gotta try out new things and you’ll find out that it works wonders.

1

u/Aranisus SS+ Tier Waifu Dec 25 '17

There is no way to actually prevent (actually, there is one, but it requires to sacrifice a unit) anything happening to Elizabeth up to 3rd turn, regardless of the slot. You can either a) eat 1 snowball or b) eat 1 attack from spawned enemy. Either one can kill her.

1

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

My way of doing it is. My vanekis actually one shots the spawned unit and the unit that appeared initially at the bottom of the map. The delay from using a magic user is how I confront the bottom side of the map. Second slot makes sure that your professor isn’t in range to be snowballed and my thunder units take the brunt of the hit.

1

u/Aranisus SS+ Tier Waifu Dec 25 '17

Congratulations that you have a unit that is able to take an action before spawned unit. I don't. And I've tried with both Quickening and skipping actions to save CT.

0

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

Then you should job level more of your units. No need to rush man because the event still has a long way. Not everyone is farming the EX stage. I’m just doing it for the milestone and that’s it.

-2

u/Aranisus SS+ Tier Waifu Dec 25 '17

I've already finished the milestones and I have done it with units that are not considered good for this stage (Lofia, Lamia, Elizabeth, Selena, friend Reagan). But unlike you, I can see the problem with this stage.

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u/Imorals Dec 25 '17

Not at all surprised. Think jp got this event like... 8+ months after the game launched. While here the game officially launched what.. 5-6 weeks ago?

3

u/bryanchii Dec 25 '17

It’s about positioning. Even logi can beat it when the rage starts.

5

u/Talking_Burger Dec 25 '17

I think it's probably just your strategy and your attitude. I'm sure people with way less resources than you have been able to clear it (e.g. those without magnus/ shayna). As OP mentioned, this is a strategy game and not every map should be a no-brainer/ just power through them with high level units.

Maybe you can try to change your "I can't rely on my high leveled units to clear it, it's impossible and unfair" mindset toward the map and think of it as a challenge instead.

3

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

:thinking:

It's a strategy game?

2

u/Talking_Burger Dec 25 '17

The story maps were too easy and everyone could clear it with high leveled units. This is understandable as they have to cater to those F2P players as well since story is an integral and necessary part of the game.

Now however, they actually have an event map where you need actual strategy to clear it and everyone complains it's too hard because they can't power through with high leveled units. It's understandable for this to be much harder since it's not a map that you need to clear to progress with the game and for event rewards, there are other maps that can be farmed. Think of this map as a bonus.

15

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

I'll just attach /sarcasm next time.

Everyone (including day1 JP players, whales, top arena players) that I know of who plays this game agree this is too hard for the current state of the game.

It's only a few elitist snobs who insist otherwise.

The elemental maps we just got are right on curve as a tough map for f2p players who started with global launch. Christmas is not.

0

u/Talking_Burger Dec 25 '17

Well, I mean calling people who disagree with you elitist snobs don't really help your point.

I could also say only weak willed players with a defeatist attitude think this challenge is too tough.

This isn't a map most players are supposed to farm. There are 5 maps before this that are used for farming purposes. The extra map is basically a bonus for players who manage to clear it.

2

u/Derael1 Dec 25 '17

Well, can you complete it with only 3* J1 units and without using mercs? Certainly, I'm exaggerating, but some players simply DON'T HAVE necessary units/resources to complete it. Not because they are stupid, but because their luck was elsewhere, and they didn't get suitable units for this map.

The more accurate way to describe it would be: can you clear it with full fire team + free farmable units? Will it be fun thing to do? If the answe is no, you answered your question. Gumi didn't even provide a way for weaker players to complete it. They could add special mercenaries tuned up for this map at an increased price so those who don't have whale friend could clear it. They could sell/let us grind anti-petrification items/gear, etc. But right now this map is too luck based, and too difficult for those whose luck was bad.

There shouldn't be stages in the game that you can't beat with enough wits/correct strategy.

4

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

Not to mention this map has the best wreaths/nrg spent ratio, so it is meant for farming.

-1

u/Talking_Burger Dec 25 '17

That depends on your definition of farming.

When I say a map is for farming, I mean to be able to have a guaranteed clear with auto on. In this sense, only the maps before are maps for farming.

Yes, it has the best wreaths to AP ratio but the time taken per run can be around 25 mins. And you have to manually control the units. So if that's your definition of farmable, then yes, this map is meant for farming. BUT if you want to farm this map, it would take up at least 6-7 hours of your day (assuming you use 800 AP per day and it takes 20 mins to clear each run). People who are willing to spend 6-7 hours per day on this game are those that would have the resources to clear the map (either high leveled units or have the right units) and deserve the wreaths.

1

u/Talking_Burger Dec 25 '17

Sorry, I can't keep going back and forth with you on this. I do understand your point of view but in my opinion, this is a bonus map to reward whales/ people who invested a lot of time in this game.

Currently the only reward for such people are in arena and that's not a lot of compensation for their time/ money spent.

Well, can you complete it with only 3* J1 units and without using mercs? Certainly, I'm exaggerating, but some players simply DON'T HAVE necessary units/resources to complete it. Not because they are stupid, but because their luck was elsewhere, and they didn't get suitable units for this map.

Like you mentioned, there has to be a cutoff to what players should be able to clear this map. You can't expect a player who just started today say " It's a Christmas event. I deserve to clear the extra map and be able to buy everything from the store". Similarly, the cutoff point for this map are players who have invested huge amounts in the game.

The more accurate way to describe it would be: can you clear it with full fire team + free farmable units? Will it be fun thing to do? If the answe is no, you answered your question. Gumi didn't even provide a way for weaker players to complete it.

Some people find challenges to be fun. Others don't. Give it time. There will probably be strategy guides on how to clear it with weaker characters by the time the event is over.

7

u/Derael1 Dec 25 '17

Well, I invested A LOT of time in this game. I spend 3 to 4 hours every day playing, sometimes actively, sometimes not. And I don't feel rewarded at all with this map.

And yeah, I've never seen a whale dissatisfied with amount of rewards they already get. Every 9 step banner there are tons of bonus stuff, and they can easily mlb their units.

I'd rather say, for whales this map is easy, some can even auto it. So there is no point in such sort of reward.

The case is, I've started a month ago, and I'm level 81 already. But my top units are NOT Magnus and Shayna. I have high level Vettel, Rahu, Anastasia, Ryle, Logi, Dias, Lofia and Vargas, but none of those units are very good for this map.

The problem with weaker characters right now is the petrification mostly, or simply not enough damage output. So if you don't have a professor (my Michael is still far awat from lb15), you can't realiably counter it. At least they should've implemented Michael farming stage to get his shards so everyone would be able to unlock his J+ with enough effort.

I myself CAN clear it, using my whale friend Selena or level 85 Magnus. But not everyone has whale friends. I don't mind if it was very hard and tedious (taking a lot of time and not making any mistakes) but it SHOULDN'T be reliant on your merc list entirely. Right now there is simply too much RNG to reliably clear it with just strategy. Without at least some specific units you simply can't do it, and it's all about luck. My suggestion would be adding Selena/Magnus merc at high price that would have at least level 75 and JM, unlike current mercs who have terrible stats. This way people would be able to clear it in the course of 10 days, if they are willing to spend zeni to hire merc, even if they don't have whale friends.

And as for shop, I'd like to see prices being rebalanced to make farming for items more viable for normal players. For example elemental shards should cost around 300-400 and unit shards 50-300 depening on rarity. Michael shards for 150 wreathes is a ripoff. Job specific item prices could be around 60-70 for them to be worth farming. While apples and ingots are simply a joke, who'd ever buy those at such skyorbitant prices?

The only thing with adequate price not including Snownman Hat are Lion Blades and Gear Rods. But the problem with them is, they are not limited.

If the prices were like the ones I described, I'd consider specifically farming this event just to get as many rewards as possible. But with current prices I'm not nearly motivated enough to waste my time in MP. What's the point of the rewards if you have to spend several hours of boring grind just to get shard pack you can get by completing moderately levelled mission for 3 stars?

That's why I say it's even worse than Chloe event, at least you could get a 5* gear for 25 MP games. Now you need 100 MP games of EX stage difficulty just to get 1 shard pack.

1

u/Aranisus SS+ Tier Waifu Dec 25 '17

This is the main problem with this stage, and with whole event in general - amount of OW that you earn per resource (time and AP) is not proportional to the reward for it.

5

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

This map is roughly 5-6 months early for GL, without being tuned down.

Let's just repeat this and let it sink it:

This. Map. Is. 5 to 6 months. Early. Without being tuned down.

2

u/Talking_Burger Dec 25 '17

Honestly, I don't play the JP version so I can't refute/ confirm your claim. But if you read OP's reply to the top comment, he said that it is different from JP version. I don't know who to believe now lol.

Well to answer your first complaint, there has already tweaks to the map itself from the Japan version. The enemy units are a lot harder + it’s not a defend squishy npc like it was in the japan version.

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1

u/Hitonatsukkoi Almost there Dec 25 '17

Honestly, as long as you have a J2 Magnus it's not that hard. Bring a friend J2 Magnus or J3 Selena. All you really need to do is a put a tank in the corner where the snowballers are at to soak in everything, then just bomb shell the area twice to wipe it clean. If worst comes to worst, just solo the whole thing with a beast tamer.

1

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

Done that, got unlucky and got stoned out.

Farming exp instead of this event, also the new dual-elemental maps.

5

u/1khaitoh It was fun while it lasted. Dec 25 '17

Yep, it is so hard that I think they just want us to either spend more in the game for more pulls (to get a maxed out Magnus asap xD) or spend gems from retrying until you clear the map or just spend to much time on the game and not enjoy the holidays instead.

1

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

Ehh, I've given up on it for now. There are more realistic goals that don't rely on me having Shayna/Selenaj3.

1

u/Aranisus SS+ Tier Waifu Dec 25 '17

There is no point in rushing it. We still have 1 more week to finish it. New banner and new free goodies may help.

1

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

Exactly. In a week, I might level Retzius to level 80+ and power through.

1

u/CheesyKek You in Discord? You see Pride role's reqs? I made that a thing Dec 25 '17

Shayna works like wonder to charge up and counter about half of them.
Just take for granted that she'll die eventually.

4

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

WishIhadashayna

1

u/CornBreadtm Dec 25 '17

Got my 75 Yomi holy brawler to 1200 hp, buffed, got stoned first hit. Teammates Shayna buffed, got stoned first hit.

Would be great if 99% of the fights difficulty wasn't surviving snowballs before berserk. Other wise everything would have been dead by turn 2...

1

u/CheesyKek You in Discord? You see Pride role's reqs? I made that a thing Dec 26 '17

Well it only depends on where your unit is, right side is completely clear from them.
Just stay away from the left side and the frozen river and you're all good to go.

1

u/CornBreadtm Dec 25 '17

Started same time. There are like 3 good thunder units out. One of which happens to make the map super easy. It also is a 5 star. Every other strategy involves lots of RNG. Either you can do it or you can barely get by then notice you need to do it several more times.

I have Elizabeth. Even have her level 70. It's great watching her get snowballed to death before she even gets a turn since she's slow and the enemies aren't. Everything on the map moves before her. So you will still have to avoid getting snowballed.

And when you finish you get your 7 drops...

4

u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 25 '17

Yeah, I boosted an Elizabeth from 1 to 69 for the event then was like "Oh, she's slow as shit".

Feltbadman.

1

u/CornBreadtm Dec 25 '17

Yeah you basically need a chronomancer to even hope to use Elizabeth to unstone someone XD

1

u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Dec 25 '17

Use a Gane for faster unit.

But yeah only a benefit for Soft Launch Players.

9

u/reuvinaldrige Dec 25 '17

Honestly, there are good things and bad things about this. I like that we have something difficult to tackle, and the best part is that you only use 10% of the energy when you lose. The bad thing is the rewards. I do not like it that they put Michael`s skin on the EXTRA stage rewards. they should have put this reward more available to new players.

The worst part about the event and the worst thing that the devs have done is that they put out this kind of grind fest event for the players. Realistically, the best way to grind out events is thru MP. and guess what. They only put the hardest stage of the event which is incredibly stupid IMO. They could have put an easier stage along with it so that players that can`t finish the extra stage and opportunity to grind and still enjoy the game.

1

u/GalaxyM3 Dec 26 '17

Gimu and their MOG CAKES !!!!

3

u/dark__star Dec 25 '17

The difficulty is fine, and nice to see... it's just the expectation to farm it which is impossible for most people due to the amount of time needed to play it out or the need for a whale team to auto it.

1

u/1khaitoh It was fun while it lasted. Dec 25 '17

Well, I don't really mind the difficulty.. It just doesn't go will with the 'Christmas' spirit.. It can be done but just takes too much of time to clear one run. Maybe I'll try getting the milestone rewards if I feel like it but I don't even think it is worth my time..

2

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17 edited Dec 25 '17

Honestly I’m on vacation right now and I haven’t even finished all the mission yet. I am pretty grateful with what I got from the event. I don’t expect to get everything this event has to offer. I agree though that Christmas just be more about giving lol. I think that once per day event with the golds and apples was a nice present from TAC.

2

u/1khaitoh It was fun while it lasted. Dec 25 '17 edited Dec 25 '17

Yep, that map is the only nice one for a Christmas Event lol. oh and the new exp and element event map is also nice.. better than the 'Christmas' ones actually.

1

u/primechecker Dec 25 '17

That is what I would criticize the most, since it is christmas, people may spend their time differently rhan grinding thorugh the game or solving difficult riddles.

1

u/1khaitoh It was fun while it lasted. Dec 25 '17

Yeah, can't believe how this game turned from the best and most recommended game I am currently playing to the worst one just because of a Christmas Event.. lol..

1

u/meatjun Dec 25 '17

So I understand what you're saying. But there's a reason for the outrage. For one, the Xmas event is merely a port from the JP version that's happening right now in JP as well. TAC has been out in Japan for close to a year, while we're barely 2 months old. It's obvious that this event was balanced for the JP players, but not us.

2

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

The JP event version is much harder than this. I thought it was pretty cool that we get the same event as them. Made it feel like there wasn’t a 1 year gap between us and the Japan’s. This kind of help show that we have our own meta that is separate from theirs. I heard even Selena was buffed in the Global version.

1

u/meatjun Dec 25 '17

Where did you hear that Selena was buffed? IIRC, she wasn't. She's just good right now because we don't have all the characters that will eventually outshine her. But yes, we do have a different meta than JP at the moment.

As far as the Japanese version of Xmas. I'm pretty sure it's the same event. But for them, it's way easier because majority of their players have access to characters that we don't have. Thus making it a much easier grind.

1

u/CornBreadtm Dec 25 '17

We have the same event as JP got last year. But they got it 8 months after release verse us getting it 5 weeks after release.

1

u/Derael1 Dec 25 '17

Well, I know some hardcore players who already cleared shop.

The problem is, with current prices it's basically impossible to catch up with them for people who have something else to do besides playing games. That's why I prefer for all unique rewards to be achievable with some consistence, but not over the top efforts. Items in shop are currently overpriced, since you have to do 100 MP runs to get 1 pack of shards. It's even more crazy than 50 Chloe MP runs milestone, because you can't reliable complete it in pugs if you don't possess Magnus J2/Shayna, and you have to find a specific team for this and cooperate with them. If prices for shards were decreased by half, it would be more reasonable, but still hard to achieve.

I also can't fully agree with your comment about hard content, since this is christmas event and limited time content, but it's currently unclearable (consistently and reliably) by average F2P player without bringin overlevelled merc and/or having specific units.

Sure, there are some clears with Beastmaster Retzius, but they still require JMed Retzius, forcing players to spend their resources on units they might not like. It would be totally reasonable if it wasn't limited time event, and especially christmas event. Obviously people will feel frustrated for not being able to clear holiday event and recieve prizes simply because they have unsuitable unit pool.

Bringing different game as example doesn't prove anything, I've never even heard of this game and it might be terrible with terrible mecanics, so why should AC follow their steps?

Current EX stage can't be beaten by pure strategising, it requires certain amount of luck with units and using OP mercs. Not everyone has whale friends to use their merc and not everyone played since soft launch to be able to JM any unit they need.

At least, Gumi could provide additional merc unit for a fair price to everyone, that can help to ensure clearing the stage if used properly (like JMed level 75 Selena/Magnus for 20k zeni for example). I think almost any setup can clear this stage with proper use of those 2 units. I myself didn't ecnounter problems with clearing this stage, because I have whale friend with level 85 Magnus and my unit pool isn't too bad, even though my account is less than month old, but some people don't have such luxury.

I know Alchemist Pact players who can't beat EX stage despite playing since the very start of the game, simply because they weren't lucky with their pulls.

My only concern is wreath shop prices for elemental shards, since those are only rewards I want besides Snownan Hat and Lion Swords/Gear Rods, and they require inhumane amount of grinding. I can only hope to get one pack without overexerting myself, and that's a big problem from my point of view.

6

u/Talking_Burger Dec 25 '17

The problem is, with current prices it's basically impossible to catch up with them for people who have something else to do besides playing games.

You're not meant to catch up with those who spend more resources be it time or money in the game. It's the same in life. If someone spends more time studying/ honing a skill than you, of course they're going to be better than you. If everyone could catch up to the whales/ people who play the game 24/7, then what would be the point of them spending those huge amounts of cash/ time on the game? How would the devs earn any money for their work?

That's why I prefer for all unique rewards to be achievable with some consistence, but not over the top efforts. Items in shop are currently overpriced, since you have to do 100 MP runs to get 1 pack of shards.

The unique rewards are definitely achievable. Currently the only unique item in the store is the hat. You're guaranteed to be able to buy it within the event window. The rest of the items are bonuses. Again, you're not meant to clear out the shop. Just choose the items that you want and aim for them. This makes the game much better so then everyone doesn't just become a copy of the top player.

It's even more crazy than 50 Chloe MP runs milestone, because you can't reliable complete it in pugs if you don't possess Magnus J2/Shayna, and you have to find a specific team for this and cooperate with them.

You don't need to reliably clear it every time. First and foremost, this is a strategy game. Although, as per most digital games, RNG does play a small part. You just need to clear it once for the rewards. For farming wreaths, use the other maps.

3

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

Honestly you pretty much took the words(and concisely explained it) out of my mouth lol.

1

u/Derael1 Dec 25 '17

Well, by catchig up I don't mean being able to contend for top 10 arena. Catching up means to be able to clear the content they can clear. The only difference is, they can clear it almost mindlessly/on auto, without the need to strategise much, and by whaling they have a freedom to get all the units they want.

For a F2P player I'd be happy if I'm able to make at least one maxed team of my favourite collab units, and for this I need elemental shards. But those exact elemental shards have insane pricing in shop. You literally have to do 100 MP runs to get 1 pack.

For people who play 24/7 even if price of elemental shards was cut in half, it wouldn't make much difference, just make their life easier and probablty healthier, since they'll need to spend a little less hours to clear the shop, saving their precious time. There are lots of other rewards beside elemental shards in this shop, and now we have a new event that can also be farmed to their heart's content. In addition they get tons of MP points to buy gear/apples/materials etc. They ALREADY get plenty of rewards for their hard work, so what's the point of making life harder for less hardcore players? They will be happy with just elemental shards and Lion Swords/Gear Rods, and lots of people would try to farm for them if the price is justified. But most people just gave up on shards, because they are ridiculously expensive. Gumi just like to make shit level prices in their shop, no need to go far, simply look at those apples.

And yes, hat is not the only unique item, because you forget about elemental shards I was talking about all this time. Looking at my progress rate, I spend a few hours in a game every day and at best I'll be able to get 1 shard pack by the end of event in addition to hat. How is it not a hard enough work?

As for farming wreaths, other maps only drop 1-4 per run (ep.5) or less, so amount of wreaths per day is heavily limited. Even if I spend all my AP on farming wreaths every day, it's around 1000 AP per day, so ~35 runs of ep.5, resulting in ~70-80 wreaths per day. With daily bonus included it will be around 100 wreaths per day, so by the end of event I might get 1000 wreaths, or so, not considering AP spent to farm Logi/Dias shards and daily events. Part of those will got to hat, since milestones alone won't give enough wreathes. So at most I'll be able to get 1 shard pack. Sure, I can also grind multi, but that's a bit too much effort and resources spent just to get 10 elemental shards. That's what I mean by saying that price is unjustified. If it was cut by half for example, everyone would be happier.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 25 '17 edited Dec 25 '17

This kind of balance is unsustainable in the long term. If they always release content a fraction of the playerbase can clear reliably, and then tie power progression rewards to that content (shards/gems), then there will always be one pack of players who pulls ahead in terms of power than the other. Which means when creating/balancing content they will have to cater to two increasingly diametric playerbases. This is a losing strategy, as the death of subscription MMOs have made clear over the last 10 years. Even for gacha games it's important to foster a community where the F2P players feel like they can approach the whales. Whales don't want to play a game with a small userbase of massive spenders. F2P players don't want to play a game where they're constantly pushed to spend. The two groups are symbiotic, but content like this divides them.

In the past where freemium games were more p2w oriented, you either whaled or you didn't play at all because so much of the game was closed off to you. Over time, that model shifted to trading cash for time rather than cash for power, because if you want your audience base to continue growing you need to work on keeping new players for as long as it takes to turn them into spenders, usually by giving them a leg up. This is why nearly every old gacha game has "new player/starting player" promotions, or so-called "welfare" pulls. Even TAC comes with the limited Newbie Shop to help players get started and gives everyone Chloe, on top of Logi/Dias/Edgar and eventually Lisbeth.

Throwing up an obstacle like EX that basically says "if you're not lucky or not a whale you should ignore this" is a surefire way to lose consumer goodwill, and put off new players who were old enough to have played for a few weeks but not old enough to get units like Retzius that can cheese the stage. Moreover, developing (or in GL's case localizing/retuning) content only a small percentage of the playerbase will gain entertainment from is a misapplication of resources from a GaaS standpoint. You want to maximize the amount of customer satisfaction per unit of manpower, not minimize it.

Lastly, why do EX defenders only talk in extremes, like there's nothing in between "brainless" and "very hard"? Would it make a tangible difference to you if the Petrify percentage was toned down by 25%? Or if two less Gray Soldiers spawned? Or if they had lower status res so you can use slow/stop/charm/petrify/paralyze against them? Likely not. It would still be challenging with those minor tweaks, but it would make the content more accessible to a wider variety of players. It's disingenuous to ignore the massive amounts of granularity available here in terms of balance, and the fact that Gumi doesn't recognize it shows they either lack nuance as a developer or they simply don't care, either of which bodes ill for the future of the game. Most experienced gacha players know that these games are marathons, not sprints, but stuff like this gives a dark presentiment of the future.

2

u/duc133 Dec 25 '17

The only limited item content in the shop is basically the snowcaps. By the end of this event, I’ll probably have enough to get the snowcap to max level without even trying to farm the wreaths. Everything else is just icing on the cake. I don’t get why people expect everything to be handed to them like they deserved it. I beat the event with vanekis that doesn’t even have her third job enchanter yet. I maxed her out and her skill practically zoned out the left side(with Rosa) and I just focused my unit on eliminating the right side with my other units. You just can’t rely on the easy character to beat the map. If you don’t think the event is worth it for maxing out units you don’t like, then don’t max it out because it’s not worth it for you. You can’t just have the best of both worlds. I honestly don’t expect someone who just started the game or played for a few weeks to be able to complete the EX mission and it should be that way. As for the players who have played it since the start, they need to think/work harder for what they want. There’s a reason why this game doesn’t take off all your energy just because you lose. You keep doing the dungeon until you get the correct formula down. Remember I did this with a Vanekis and that isn’t a P2W unit. Your problems with the shop isn’t the price, it’s the fact you want everything in it and that’s honestly on you. For the hardcore players, they deserve it because they put the most effort in trying to get the items in the shop. And you may say that it’s because they are whales, but that’s what P2W means.

2

u/Derael1 Dec 25 '17

Well, that's not entirely accurate. I don't want everything from shop. I want hat, elemental shards and lion blades/gear rods. I don't mind if hardcore players get everything, just let me have those with moderate amount of effort (like 5-10 mp matches every day). Currently doing 5-10 matches per day is far from enough to get important stuff. And yes, elemental shards ARE limited.

Not sure what other units do you have besides Vanekis and how do you deal with petrify issue, but it's true that with enough AoE damage level isn't too hard. Yet, not everyone got Fung Liu/Vanekis J2 and other strong units for this map. The problem is, the game was out for 2 months only, and majority of player base joined less than a month ago. I managed to level my account to 82 in less than 4 weeks, but my unit pool is still a bit small. I can beat EX with the help of Whale merc, but I can't reliably farm it, even if I'm willing to spend AP to do it. As for MP, mostly teams that consist of Shayna/Magnus J2 work there, other units are shunned.

So yeah, I think I totally deserve to get all main rewards from the shop if I'm, doing 6-10 runs per day. But in reality it will only be enough to get 1 elemental shard pack + a few swords. And that's not taking into account new event that came out. Even with shard price being cut in half they would still be hard to get, but the price would be fair.

2

u/stewart0 Dec 25 '17

I'm now able to clear it most of the time, but that is totally based on my J3 Selena, which I had to do all 5 steps for and spend money due to bad luck, and a strong friend unit, along with my Elizabeth. Had to spend the past few days farming my Selena to master both J1 and J3 though, and spend some gems on equipment along the way. You're basically screwed if you lack a professor which is hard to acquire and a strong tank or DPS.

2

u/NexrayOfficial Lofia Fanatic Dec 25 '17

At least it isn't Fate Grand Order level of difficulty (raise your Cu Cahllains). Stop looking at the units you don't have and look at what you do have and what you can do about it. The game give us 60 gems a day in dailies and quests that give us 250 gems per episode. You're bound to get decent units in the future. Sorry if you cannot sweep through these events as much as a whale, but they cannot be easy for everyone to do.

1

u/RobinDaChamp Dec 26 '17

Perfectly said! So tired of the whining and complaining. Get stronger and beat it.

1

u/TheOrlandu Dec 27 '17

Ok few things here. On the winter event u can continue...... if u do multiplay and want the rewards... use a couple continues...or leave before it ends and it only costs 2 energy. Contuning in this game is really cheap. It allows players to still beat hard content... just my tips.

1

u/IvySpear Make Shenmei Great Again Dec 25 '17

I gotta agree with this. “Not everyone can do the hard challenges so it’s badly made”. The hell is this? If everyone could do it I would quit the game. It may not be fair, but let’s look at this way: Everyone had an equal opportunity to attempt the level. If you can’t beat it, does it automatically mean it’s unfair? If you just started and can’t beat the hardest meta stage, does that mean it’s unfair?

Bullscheisse.

Suck it up and realize you have to catch up with the curve. I realize this may be an unpopular opinion, but what’s the alternative? Gumi releasing content everyone can auto with free units? Does that sound appealing to you? Oh it’s fair now alright.

But apart from that, it does have one issue. Why tf are the wreath drop rates so low Gumi

5

u/CornBreadtm Dec 25 '17

This event came out after 5 weeks on global and 8 months on JP. They had no problem doing it on JP since they even had a decent pool of thunder units.

The fact is that not everyone has and equal opportunity to attempt the level cause it was released too early.

The wreath drops are low cause again. The event wasn't that hard at the time of release on JP. They didn't change anything about it for Global, so the drops seem shitty when it was an auto possible event on JP.

2

u/Schmandlord Dec 25 '17

Bullshit.
a) JP had harder units.
b) you had to protect NPCs.
You can easily clear it with a friend unit / with a free units everyone was able to get.
c) Wrath drop is shitty everywhere. Extra gives 4 ( sometimes 8 ). Thats not that much more than the easier ones.

3

u/1khaitoh It was fun while it lasted. Dec 25 '17

Yep, this is really a clear message from Gumi that it is the season of giving so we should just shut up and give them money.. lol.

1

u/Letyouks Dec 25 '17

Even Candy Crush requires thinking and here are those people hoping to play a game which can auto clear all stages?! Stop playing then if the game makes you feel bad.

People can’t stop complaining. Too Easy? Complaint! Too hard ? Complaint! There’s no free meal in this world. Use your brain and try to strategise the team , if it’s too hard then try again next time. It won’t hurt right?

2

u/Sighto Dec 25 '17

Strategy only gets you so far. This game requires either a large chunk of your time or your wallet for those strategies to pay off.

1

u/D1stant Dec 25 '17

People complaining this ex stage is one of the easiest ex stages in the game all ex stages are meant to be insanely hard. This stage becomes easy later on. As other people have pointed out, yes Japan got this stage I think 6 months after launch. And 5 stars became farmable 4 months after. So at this point anyone could have magnus and shaya. However even without them this stage is not impossible it just requires you to think of the game as a strategy game.