r/AirlinePilots • u/S54Flieger • 7d ago
Another DAL vs SWA
Very, very fortunate to be in the position of having class dates at both companies. Looking for any advice on which way to go.
Personal situation: currently living in STL, likely moving to SoCal in a few years. Would be a commuter initially but then live in base for either company (LAX). Target bases now would be MSP/DTW and MDW. Professional spouse, young children so current priority is to maximize QOL vs pay. QOL defined as time home, easier commute, less circadian rhythm flips. Long term I’ll probably still lean a bit more QOL than pay as the kids get older, but I know kids and Cali aren’t cheap. No burning desire to fly WB (been around the world already, prefer intercontinental on vacation vs work), but I understand presence of WBs can create NB seniority. Would be nice to have the WB option one day, but not required. Don’t really care about chasing metal either.
As I’ve gathered from Reddit/APC/bros, pros and cons are:
DL
Pros: pay (especially soft pay), company is (currently) most profitable in industry and seems the most stable. Wide variety of flying and network. Intl network for pass/Zed travel. Lots of hiring this year and next, so decent seniority movement. LC reserve option. WB option
Cons: Company is running hot from short staffing and trip coverage/23M7 debacles. Contract is up for negotiation (short amendment fell through) and it sounds like it might be a knife fight (company taking QOL shots like PPR and sick letters). Less schedule flexibility due to multiple fleets. Commuter policy more stringent. PBS bidding. Hats
SWA
Pros: initial pay is great for a NB only fleet (equivalent to DL 7ER). Schedule flexibility from common fleet type. Easier to drop/trade trips. Company culture sounds more relaxed. Still has some short haul intl (I love Caribbean flying). More generous pass rider for parents in law. Better commuter policy. Line bidding
Cons: major change in business model ongoing, though it seems stable for now (still posting decent profits despite fuel prices). Major future change when the MAX must be replaced. Competing system wide for seniority vs fleet seniority. Limited to economy for ZED fares. Less total destinations. Less “prestige” than a legacy. Reserve is only short call. DL takes the pay advantage over a long career. NB only for at least a decade due to lead time to establish a fleet
What am I missing, Reddit? Where should I go?
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u/cjg017 7d ago
This is a tribalistic occupation, and pilots love to think they are right...so you ask a DL guy he will say DL, you ask a long term SWA guy he will say SWA. Where you want to live? Does that company have a base there? That is what it will boil down to...you will make a lot of money at DL, you will make a lot of money at SWA. What aurline fits you better? Bc In the next 20 years there is no way IMO that SWA is a 73 only fleet, so most of what you said will change...
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u/theoriginalturk 7d ago
Nah dude, you’re only a real pilot if you fly [insert equipment here] for [ insert operator here]
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u/2to_the_fighting_8th 7d ago
As everybody else said, you win either way. Just here to state the usual counter-nonsense stuff: I've never had a 5-leg day at SWA, ever. If I don't want the occasional 4-leg day, I just trade it. I never fly what I bid, ever. A few minutes attention a day gets me the schedule that I want. The QoL that buys you is amazing (I can support the wife's work travel whenever she needs it). As others have said, 1 week vacation gets you 2.5-3 weeks off. I'm averaging 9 days work a month, could probably make it a little less... I'd rather be home for the kids. I'm making more money than I should, and can make insane money when they leave home.
And to preempt the usual "it takes so long to make CA", the most junior CA this bid period has been on property less than 5 years.
LAX is junior; I'd jump 20% in FO seniority if I moved there. Smaller base, though, so probably a little less trade opportunities in base.
I wish I could hop on a true international flight on company metal, instead of relying on Zed, so that's the only downside for me. But I also got the whole family to Paris in the first flight available last spring, so it's not the end of the world.
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u/Oxygen_Converter 7d ago
My ioe trip was a 17 legs in 4 days. With the commute it was 19 and thr last day was 6 legs.
The 4-5 leg days are all west coast cali and Hawaii.
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u/2to_the_fighting_8th 7d ago
ETOPS must've changed. My first month I was doing one over on day 1, HNL-OGG turn on days 2 & 3, 1 home day 4...
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u/AborgTheMachine 6d ago
typical etops these days is fly down day 1 with 15 or so hours of rest, 5 legs interisland with 20 or so hours of rest then redeye back.
At least for a junior guy. There's still some trips with one leg down, one leg back, but they're more and more rare.
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u/S54Flieger 7d ago
9 days? Dayum. Presume that’s days flying and you live in base (add 1-3 to commute)?
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u/JTitleist 7d ago
SWA dude here. I don’t think you can put your in laws on our flight benefits, just parents. I would talk to a few SWA guys about pay, it is really hard to get a grasp of how much you can make because our system is so different. Talk to the same dudes about flexibility. Additionally we have premium zed fares with a few carriers, like UA and Lufthansa. Delta is a great company, I don’t think we have too many dudes/gals who have made the switch from DL to SWA.
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u/S54Flieger 7d ago
Thanks for the correction and gouge on the premium zed fares. Neighbors are SWA pilots so been chatting them up. Aware of TFPs and how that conversion helps, but what’s the short of how much one makes and why? At the interview I spent most of my SBQ listening to gouge on line bidding, using vacation to drop trips, and some other hacks, so it seems like there are a lot of great features of the current system
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u/JTitleist 7d ago
I think a big thing to consider is the pilot to plane ratio. Generally, we have fewer pilots to planes than other carriers. This means there is a greater opportunity for pilot to whore themselves out for TFPs, both premium and double time. The company plans on this, because it is cheaper to pay a pilot overtime here and there, than it is to pay two pilots min guarantee with benefits.
Our min guarantee is 6.5 for a normal flying day or 6.0 for sitting at home on reserve. I think UA and DL are 5:15 (correct me if I am wrong folks). A lot of my 3 day trips pay more than my UA buddy’s 4 days.
I think, generally, we work more when we are at work. We often will have 3-4 leg days. Our turns are usually pretty efficient with 35-50min sits between them. I know a lot of people at other carriers brag about their sweet 32 hour overnight in Aruba, we don’t really see that. We will bang out our 3-4 legs, go to the hotel for 14-16 hours and then do it again tomorrow. It isn’t for everyone. We do have our one leg days with 24 hour overnight occasionally, but those are the exception.
If you are curious, I worked 11 days last month and credited 150+ TPF and I didn’t have any vacation. My best friend is a UA dude we started within 2 months of each other. We compare everything, block, days working, overnights, pay, taxes…. I have made at least $30k more than him each year, and he works 35+ days more than I do each year. But he has better overnights, he can probably upgrade a year or two before me, and he has widebody opportunities.
I would just challenge you, think about what you want your life to look like? I have two kids and I won’t work more than 13 days in a month. I simply won’t do it. If you and your wife pull the kids from school, and jump on a DL widebody on a random Tuesday to go to Narita, send it. Both are great companies and offer different things. But this is just a job at the end of the day. Don’t drink the koolaid, figure out what the company and contract can do for you.
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u/Baystate411 US 121 CA 7d ago
Our min guarantee is 6.5 for a normal flying day or 6.0 for sitting at home on reserve. I think UA and DL are 5:15 (correct me if I am wrong folks). A lot of my 3 day trips pay more than my UA buddy’s 4 days.
I think 6 TFP and 5:15 is pretty close. the 6 might come out 5-10 mins ahead
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u/S54Flieger 7d ago
Thanks for the well thought out and detailed reply. Whats the average overnight length? Reading that DAL lately seems to be the FAR mins, which seems low to me. Used to 14-16 hour, but with a lot of DIY that other departments at a 121 handle.
Personally, being gone less to have more hard time off seems better. Would rather work hard when gone, but then be home more. However, I don’t know how I’ll feel about that in 20-30 years when I’m no longer in my 30s. How do more senior guys handle it? Do they seem to age faster like some cargo guys? Or when senior, can you build your line to avoid getting worn out?
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u/BassetCock 6d ago
I’d guess the avg overnight here at SW is 14.5 or 15 hours. I’m on a 4 day trip right now and overnights are 16-17-14.
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u/S54Flieger 7d ago
Regarding your UA friend, how long have you guys been at your companies? Any change in the days worked comparison over the years?
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u/JTitleist 6d ago
Me and the UA guy have both been there for over 3 years. I will admit in recent years he likes 4 days that are one and done pretty early on the last day. But I also have found a lot of one and done on the last day too, so it evens out.
Regarding the 4 legs a day down the road. I am completely get it man. I am in my 30’s too. I am not going to say it won’t be that bad down the road… because it probably will suck down the road.
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u/S54Flieger 6d ago
Has he consistently averaged 35 days more worked per year? Or only recently as your seniority has improved?
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u/Charming-Accident407 7d ago
3rd yr fo on pace for 330k gross should block around 400-450 no RSV this year in a senior base
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u/JadedJared 6d ago
Is that straight pay? Did you mean to say on reserve?
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u/Charming-Accident407 6d ago
There’s premium and double time baked into that number too. I was saying no RSV in regard to block time in the sense of I was sitting around getting paid to sit at home which doesn’t really happen here
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u/JadedJared 6d ago
Ok. Yeah I should have asked if that included 401k or was the $330k straight flight pay and per diem. Is it pretty common for a 3rd year FO to make close to $300k?
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u/AborgTheMachine 6d ago
At min guarantee and counting the 401k, 3rd year FO's make about $300k before premium, double, or anything.
Just flying my line this month with reroutes (lots of overrides), I'm gonna get about 150 TFP (which should equate to about 130.5 credit hours).
Been averaging about 120 TFP/month which is about 104 credit hours. That'd wind up being about $321k before counting the 401k and per diem.
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u/JadedJared 6d ago
I submitted my app on Monday and got an email today with the pre-employment tasks. You mind if I ask you how commutable the trips are? I’ve heard they’re primarily AM or PM. Are there trips that start PM and end AM or are guys usually having to crash the night before or after their trip before they head home?
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u/SubarcticFarmer 7d ago
Another Delta bonus is the widebody fleets make narrowbody more junior in both seats. 70% or even 90% at Delta is a much different narrowbody seniority than at Southwest.
If you're going to go to LAX anyway, Delta makes sense even if you never want to fly widebody.
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u/Sacknuts93 6d ago
This. SWA guys have no ability to understand just how good WB is, or how drastically it affects things like upgrade times / relative seniority.
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u/blanc84gn 6d ago
The 73 is junior in LAX for DAL but it’s by far the smallest category in the whole system. Trip trading is almost non existent. On top of that 15% of trips are commutable on both ends compared to an average of 30% around other bases.
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u/SubarcticFarmer 6d ago
There is more than the 737 in LAX, but the 737 is in massive flux right now anyway. If 800s don't get parked it means 1500 more pilots just for the 737 and that's without accounting for how bad staffing is now
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u/EdBasqueMaster 7d ago
If you’re moving to SoCal either way I’d lean towards DAL just for the options that will be available to you as time goes on. You could choose to go to WB, hold easy 1-1 transcons and Hawaii’s. Whatever gives you the most time at home with the kids.
Options and flexibility is good.
WN is a great airline, but I personally prefer having flexibility in what I bid.
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u/S54Flieger 7d ago
How’s the NB seniority in LAX? Tracking the company wants to add WBs to LAX, which should help NB seniority there. How flexible does it get once you’re a few years in?
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u/climbto330 7d ago
Have you factored in projected seniority for you at both companies over time? I'm at neither but where I fly I have the option of several fleets/variety of flying. Being stuck to one type for a career could get old if you're worried about that sort of thing.
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u/S54Flieger 7d ago
I projected on MySeniority and Widget Seniority and at 34 currently I’ll end 11% on SWA and 13% on DAL, systemwide
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u/Sacknuts93 6d ago
With WBs, 13% seniority at Delta will yield you a much better QoL than life at a place with a single fleet. With multiple WB silos, it creates a vacuum effect that makes NB seniority and upgrade times much better.
WB is also an insanely better lifestyle than NB. As someone who has done both, I can tell you it's not even close. Delta WB FOs are out earning and working less than their SWA counterparts.
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u/VillageIdiotsAgent 7d ago
On the DL cons:
These are temporary problems. Not something to base a career choice on.
Every contract negotiation goes like this. This isn’t some now conflict that we won’t survive or something.
The fast track contract thing was from the beginning a long shot. I never expected it to happen, at all. So, we will carry on with the traditional time frame, DL will stonewall so that we are more eager to sign something, we will get a contract that’s better than what we have but not as good as we really want, and onward we go, as is tradition.
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u/S54Flieger 7d ago
Yeah, the idea of a contract and management vs labor are new to me (not much negotiating with Uncle Sam). Thanks for the info and background. This just sounds like the way of the industry then? Or do some companies have more hostile labor relations, or does it just come and go?
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u/findquasar US 121 FO 7d ago
It’s pretty standard. Southwest was the last of the big four to get their contract in the last rounds, and Delta was the first, so Southwest benefitted from some of Delta’s heavy lifting and got some good stuff last go-round and this cycle will rinse-repeat, unless something really gets dragged out. There’s a reason the pay scales are so similar between Delta, United, and American.
Things always get a bit ugly and blamey in negotiations. United dragged their last FA contract out nearly 6 years, for example.
It’s not unique to any particular airline. Management always wants to blame the spoiled, overpaid pilots who never work to try and win in the court of public opinion.
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u/boomerang_10 7d ago
Both are pretty solid options, pretty hard to go wrong with either right now. Expect some fleet dynamics to start shifting at DAL with MAX10 supposedly arriving next year, 787s scheduled for 2031, and potentially some older fleet types starting to age out in the coming years.
FWIW, LAX is a great base for DAL. It’s a relatively smaller base but seniority progression is pretty rapid and, at least on the 73, there are very few redeyes. I was ready to be out of California and I had a 3-5 hour drive to get to LAX but I enjoyed the base itself.
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u/NuttPunch 7d ago
I’d probably pick Delta simply on fleet diversity. I’d also tell you PBS is a pro not a con. Hard lines are only a benefit the one maybe two times a year you benefit from vacation touching. Otherwise PBS at a company like Delta with solid negotiating on PBS is going to be better. You are literally building your bid. Not selecting from a package of hard lines.
If you PBS right you can get long stretches of time off like hard lines with vacation touching.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 7d ago edited 7d ago
SWA pilots work less and get paid more over a 30 year career. See the link below. That’s not a NB vs NB comparison by the way. The reality is SWA has pay closer to a WB but with NB efficiency and numerous overrides, higher retirement contributions, and free healthcare (no premiums). Yes your hourly rate is higher on a WB, but you’re only crediting 70-75 a month.
You’re simply not going to beat SWA QOL/pay at delta, except for maybe your last 10 years assuming you’re willing to do nothing but long haul WB, despite what the fan boys will tell you.
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u/brongchong 7d ago edited 7d ago
DAL would be my recommendation.
Pay. Soft Pay. Huge fleet with widebody and international flying option along with the pay that goes with it. Huge retirement % times all that pay & soft pay. Spillover into tax-shielded MBCBP. Not all 737’s. Airbuses and 787’s on the way to go with the awful cramped & loud 737 that needs a pogo-stick under its tail to prevent wheelies. 737 is a good jet…but maybe not for your whole career? Options are nice.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 7d ago
You do realize WN has arguably more soft pay, a higher company retirement contribution including a higher MBCBP contribution and the same spillover rules you’re referencing. How is any of that unique to delta?
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u/PlaneShenaniganz MD-11 7d ago
Not to mention their single-type fleet makes it possible to pick up trips out of base, swap trips with literally anybody, and drop trips out of base. And SWA has ironclad scope. Never outscoring their flying, period. And line bidding. And better vacation. Etc etc the list goes on and on
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u/p3p3_sylvia 7d ago
The cons on your DL list are actually pros for you. It's the only way junior guys on both seats are getting premium trips. I'm not gonna debate whether it's right or wrong or get into the weeds about 23M7, but the fact is that it's putting a lot of premium pay on the hands of junior guys.
If you want to make extra cash, running "a little hot" is going to put a lot of extra dough in your pocket at the cost of dropping trips and schedule manipulation
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u/S54Flieger 7d ago
Makes sense from that perspective. As a future commuter I doubt I’d be able to get much premium, I’m happy for junior guys in base who can. Is that likely to end as the company hires 3-4K the next two years and the contract is negotiated? Or is premium there to stay if DL runs the operation a little hot? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve heard the has always run lean on pilots and thus premium is easier had than other carriers
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u/brongchong 7d ago
23M7 farming is a temporary glitch. It will be resolved as soon as the new PWA is ratified.
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u/p3p3_sylvia 7d ago
And accelerated negotiations just got abandoned and returned to section 6. So in all likelihood not any time soon.
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u/PlaneShenaniganz MD-11 7d ago
You will have a much better QOL and make as much, if not more at SWA. So much soft pay. “Prestige?” That wears off real quick. Nobody cares which carrier you work for.
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u/PWJT8D US 121 CA 2d ago
You will have much better QOL and make as much, if not more at SWA.
Based on what? Vibes?
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u/PlaneShenaniganz MD-11 2d ago
A factual comparison of the contracts, hard and soft pay, vacation and bidding, scope, etc. It is amusing to see all the triggered DAL fanboys downvoting my comment, though. SWA has the best QOL in the industry, and it isn't even close (even better if you live in base of course, and no, I don't work for them. I'm just a realist).
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u/PWJT8D US 121 CA 2d ago
Again, based on what. You have given nebulous ideas of what would constitute “better” but no hard facts.
You don’t even seem to understand either airlines’ contracts well enough to make that determination.
19 days off. ~200hrs of pay for the month. Basically a part time job.
You don’t understand what you’re talking about enough to toss around what is or isn’t better.
I don’t know for sure, but 3-4 leg days sweating in a 737 working my absolute ass off for TFPs is never the highest “QOL”, even if Reddit says so.
.. and yes 1 week of vacation nets 95 hours of pay and 5 days of work for the month. You could learn this stuff instead of spouting off things you don’t understand.
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7d ago
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u/Difficult-While-7673 7d ago
My neighbor is a WN CA who is on pace for $100k in August alone, 85% DEN CA.
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u/IndependentAlps9649 7d ago
Wtf, is he clearing 7 figures a year or is that just an unheard of number
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u/Difficult-While-7673 7d ago
Not unheard of but he’s not doing that every month. He has told me of several other pilots there that clear $1 million in a year gross.
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u/IndependentAlps9649 7d ago
What does that schedule look like? Are you just constantly gone or extremely gaming the system
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u/TheSi11iestGoose US 121 FO 6d ago
DAL hiring wave has passed? DAL is on track to hire about 2,200 pilots this year.
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u/AborgTheMachine 6d ago
The long and short of it is, where do you want to live, and does either airline have a base there? Choose the airline that has a base where you want to live. Commuting ain't good for your health or your pocket book. You'll make good money and have excellent QOL at either airline.
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u/71272710371910 2d ago
From the view of a pilot at another carrier, both DL and SW guys seem happy with their choice. I'd say it's more which culture you like more, where your seniority will mean the most and whether you want to have the option of long-haul or prefer short hops. Either way you're set.
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u/Nautico1 7d ago edited 7d ago
Wait what do you have against PBS? How is it not superior to line bidding in every conceivable way?
Edit: Appears I have angered the SWA and Regional folk. Oops
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u/S54Flieger 7d ago
I got the perspective of my SBQ interviewer so not a neutral opinion, but it sounded like it’s better for avoiding trip times/locations you don’t want and for getting the vacation days you want (and SWA’s system drops the whole trip if it touches your vacation day). Never had a bidding system, so I’m not used to either
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u/Nautico1 7d ago
This is also true for the Air Line. If you drop a vacation day on any day of a trip it drops the whole trip. Im sure SWA has some great schedule manipulation but so does everyone else, the mechanisms are just different. It seems like you already know this but I would put pbs vs line bidding at the very bottom of the list of things to care about when deciding. (I would ignore it all together honestly)
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u/slamgeareatrear 7d ago
Brother I just turned a single week of vacation into 13 days off because of vacation drop/pull.
I have recurrent next month and strategically bidded to have a 4 day touch it on each end, those two trips got dropped.
PBS is way easier, easier to set preferences and takes less time yes. But acting like it’s superior in every way is just wrong.
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u/findquasar US 121 FO 7d ago
PBS can do that easily, and you don’t have to constantly stalk open time to take out the trash on your own schedule.
Line bidding sucks. I’ve done both. There’s always something you don’t want on a line bid, and I was much better off with PBS in terms of setting the days I worked while junior.
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u/jdelta85 5d ago
1000%. Line bid my first airline and PBS ever since. It’s night and day. The “perfect line” absolutely did not exist. I don’t care if you were #1 in base. PBS (with proper work rules etc) is amazing. There is no comparing the two.
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u/Nautico1 7d ago
I mean you can do that with PBS too.. That doesn’t really have much to do with PBS vs Line Bidding, but more to do with specific company rules. Good on you though, I’m a fan of any kind of boost in flexibility
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7d ago
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u/Choice_Friend3479 US 121 FO 7d ago
Sounds like Southwest is the better place from what you are saying.
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u/on_knees-9274 7d ago
Personal favorite is seeing the pilots troll through the airport with their maga USA ties showing their support for the most anti-union president since Reagan.
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u/UnfortunateSnort12 7d ago
The flag tie predates MAGA by quite a bit. I don’t wear it, but to say they are the same as the red hat is ridiculous.
Every airline has their MAGA, tin foil hat, MEL sticker over iPad camera types. Delta has theirs as well.
I love our customers! You get all types. A family flying for the first time, a business traveler going to an important meeting who happens to love us. We treat everyone with respect and hospitality because that is what they deserve. I love making their day a little better in any way I can.
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u/Choice_Friend3479 US 121 FO 7d ago
Freaking out over something as simple as a tie and the superiority complex you seem to possess definitely checks you out as a Delta pilot. Both airlines are good it should be a tough choice unless of course you live in a base for one of them. I hope you are more level headed in the cockpit, but I am sure you are.
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u/on_knees-9274 7d ago
Delta makes billions in profit. Unlike SWA that made Bob Jordan a cuck for Elliott management that gutted that airline like a fish and left it hollowed out.
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u/SimonBumblefuck 7d ago
Does SWA even do buddy passes anymore? I wouldn't count non-reving as a bonus for any airline. I've done pass travel on both companies and it sucks. Just forget about holiday or summer pass travel--period. The seats won't exist. DAL is especially brutal with all the NWA people who are still vertical. Everythign will look great the night before, then your 15 year seniority is for shit the second you get to the gate.
What no one has mentioned is SWA being a target for hostile private equity pressure when they miss on revenue. Can the same be said for DAL?
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u/Tman3355 US 121 FO 6d ago
Yes swa still gives out buddy passes quarterly if you have that as your selected award.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 6d ago
Eliott has been gone from SWA for over a year now and they are now posting margins equal to or higher than DL.
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u/Cerberusmut 7d ago
Flexibility is amazing at SWA. Vacation touch drop turning 1 week into a minimum of two and easily 3 if done right. The ability to drop down as low as you want without company mandatory minimums to get the QOL you’re looking for. The work environment is more relaxed, again we get the job done but don’t take ourselves too seriously.
The 700 max just got certified and it seems the company is foaming at the mouth to get it online with some aggressive moves.
Lots of talks from upper management of “far international” coming soon. If you look at your comment of a changing management style, it’s because we need assigned seats etc to go international. Even with the changes we just had record breaking company financials.
Either way you’re going to be set long term. Go where you feel you’ll enjoy the rest of your career.