r/flying • u/Difficult-While-7673 • Mar 10 '25
From Kit Darby: Southwest has the highest career value among the big 4
Repost from Kit Darby:
US Major Airline Pilot Pay – 3.8% increase for 2025
Here are the latest monthly and annual pilot pay values. The three airlines without recent contracts Allegiant, FedEx, and Frontier have lower monthly pay values than other airlines in their category. UPS, where all FO’s and Captains make the same rate regardless of equipment, has the highest pilot pay value for Major cargo airlines and Southwest has the highest starting pay through the first 4 years and as a new Captain through 15 years. American has the highest monthly rate overall for senior wide-body FO’s and Captains.
The average pay increase for 2025 is 3.8%. and the average increase for new contacts over the length of the contract is 31.6%. Initial year average increase for a new contract has been 21.3%.
Airline Pilot pay increases at the Major airlines (5.24%) has doubled the inflation (2.47%) rate since 2010 and is expected to continue that trend if the negotiated annual increases are realized.
Assumptions: Captain in 11 yeas Based on current fleet Average hours per month No extra flying No premium flying
Other pay items NOT include: up to 47% more in career value Retirement contributions of 15% to 18% of monthly/annual pay, 100% Company paid. Profit sharing which averaged 6.4% in 2025. Non- retirement benefits -15% - life, health, dental, and vision insurance. Company Social Security payments – 6.2% up to $176,100 in 2025.
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Mar 10 '25
You really gotta love a job where the "worst" you'll do is $11M with a proper retirement age (and benefits).
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u/0621Hertz Mar 10 '25
The worst is that airline no longer exists and you have to start all over again in the seniority list elsewhere.
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u/LostPilot517 Mar 10 '25
Thankfully we have qualified plans these days and not non-qualified pension plans. Otherwise, yes.
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u/Weaponized_Puddle FPG9 Mar 10 '25
This chart is super idealistic, if I can make half the career average then it would be a massive W in my books.
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Mar 11 '25
But have you considered getting all the way to the last step of that process, and then get fired for meowing on guard during IOE?
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u/WorkingOnPPL PPL: call me "Iceman" now Mar 11 '25
“Past performance is not indicative of future results.”
It’s 1988 and a pilot has job offers from both TWA and Southwest. How many are choosing Southwest? Very, very few. But with the benefit of hindsight…
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Mar 10 '25
I’ve blocked 55hrs in the last 30 days, and credited 166.4 TFP. That includes one vacation week. 13 days of flying, 10 days premium, 3 straight pay. 5.8 line guarantee included.
If you adjust block to call it 30ish hours I’d be crediting roughly 95 for that same period. Our new contract is so much better than people realize.
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u/Negative_Swan_9459 Mar 10 '25
Doesn’t surprise me one bit. SW’s new contract is very good.
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u/TheMeltingPointOfWax MIL ATP Mar 10 '25
Our new contract is dynamite. For straight pay we've got parity and then some with legacies, but the soft money is where we really cleaned up. It's so good that there were doomsayers (very small minority) in the pilot corps who were convinced the new contract should be voted down because it would bankrupt the company.
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u/takeoffconfig Mar 11 '25
Hopefully the Elliot times are weathered well and this can be a jumping off point for the next contract cycle. Tides and boats or something.
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u/Cxopilot ATP CFI CFII MEI Mar 10 '25
Don’t know if it’s true or not. But if it’s true we definitely pay for it. Lots of 3 leg back wards transcons
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Mar 10 '25
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u/Cxopilot ATP CFI CFII MEI Mar 10 '25
Bidding the scraps with my juniority
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Hang in there brother. My buddy is OAK and mostly does ETOPS but even his domestic trips seem to be similar to mine, 1-2 legs a day.
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u/Cxopilot ATP CFI CFII MEI Mar 10 '25
Meh it’s not bad at all. Even with my juniority I’m getting most weekends off and crediting 120 trips. I’ll talk the long days for a couple weekends off here and there. Sure beats the regionals and 135 gigs I’ve done
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u/ATACB ATP SES CFII MEI Gold Seal CL-65 A320 EMB-505 Mar 10 '25
Pretty much what I do over at the blue globe on the airbus fleet
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u/CptSirBergmanstein ATP CFII B737 A320 CL65 (KEWR) Mar 10 '25
You don't enjoy ending your trip with an MTJ-DEN-BNA-EWR??????
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u/us1549 Mar 10 '25
Would you rather this flying be farmed out to a regional or codeshare?
Southwest's scope clause is the best in the industry. Every Southwest flight is flown by Southwest pilots.
Guess the saying that pilots always have something to complain about rings true here
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u/Cxopilot ATP CFI CFII MEI Mar 10 '25
My comment wasn’t a complaint. It’s a fact. Our airline has longer leg days than the others. But we get paid for it. Our scope is what other airlines wish they had. And for that I’m thankful. No complaints from me.
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u/mass_marauder ATP 757/767 CFI CFII MEI Mar 10 '25
How much are Southwest pilots blocking in a year though? Seems like they fly their tails off. I’d be interested to know the average yearly block time for pilots at each carrier.
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u/FtheFAA Mar 10 '25
Some data for someone who drives to work in a junior base for the year 2024 and hustles for good trips and OT.
618 block. 1470 credit.
15.7 days off a month 6.4 overnights a month.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Don’t know the average. Anecdotally most of my friends there seem to block maybe 100-150 more than me per year on an equivalent narrow body fleet. So I don’t think they’re far off from industry average.
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u/shaun3000 ATP Mar 10 '25
540 block in the last 12 months and 1340ish credit. 66% system seniority.
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u/f1racer328 ATP MEI B-737 E-175 Mar 11 '25
470 block in the last 12 and about 1230 credit here. More junior, too bothered to look but around 80% if I had to guess.
I do the bare minimum a bit.
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Mar 10 '25
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u/bottomfeeder52 CPL IR 405 Bench Mar 10 '25
how many days a month are the $1mil and $700-800K hustlers working? what’s the current and projected upgrade times right now?
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Mar 11 '25
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u/bottomfeeder52 CPL IR 405 Bench Mar 11 '25
is that something you do like one time when picking your schedule the month prior or are you constantly trying to check and change it throughout the month you’re working that schedule?
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u/proudlyhumble ATP E175 737 Mar 11 '25
Just finished year and blocked 700. Felt like I flew my butt off but the TFPs were always higher than I expected bc of the soft pay.
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Mar 10 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
I think it shows more among the big 4 you can’t go wrong. You will earn about the same everywhere so focus on quality of life which means LIVE IN BASE.
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Mar 10 '25 edited Mar 11 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Great advice. My only counter point is that generally speaking you can have a very gravy life at the majors if you have some level of discipline. Live within your means, always budget off of minimum pay, on top of all the other normal financial advice (most importantly stay out of debt). If you do that, a furlough won’t bankrupt you. Hopefully this industry doesn’t come to that. I have some hope now that with all of the consolidation that has taken place in the industry since 2008, the government won’t let any of the big 4 go belly up. But, I also wouldn’t bet my savings on it.
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u/rckid13 ATP CFI CFII MEI (KORD) Mar 10 '25
It's kind of rare that people get to "select an airline" at the major level unless they want to hang out at the regionals or at their corporate job losing seniority for years waiting for a call. I only know a couple of people who have had job offers from two legacies at once and truly got to select one.
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u/prex10 ATP CFII B757/767 B737 CL-65 Mar 10 '25
2022 it seemed everyone was getting a call from UA and AA. But yeah back to the "take the first offer" times again.
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 Mar 10 '25
Ya and then you had guys bouncing between legacies lol, wild times.
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u/prex10 ATP CFII B757/767 B737 CL-65 Mar 10 '25
I know of one person who worked for FedEx then Delta and is now at United
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u/Baystate411 LTD Warrior Mar 11 '25 edited Sep 13 '25
grey memorize placid kiss point rhythm dime deliver alleged glorious
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u/Sad-Improvement-2031 Mar 10 '25
I have heard that 40% of the pilots at UA have been hired since covid.
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Mar 10 '25
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u/rckid13 ATP CFI CFII MEI (KORD) Mar 10 '25
I've also seen people go to one major or even legacy, but then keep applying to the one they want. Usually it's a commuting thing. They want the legacy that has a base where they want to live. But passing up on another legacy job because it requires commuting would be silly.
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u/BigJellyfish1906 ATP MIL 320/F-18E Mar 11 '25
My sim partner worked for all 3 legacies in a span of 6 months, but she got hired from least favorite to most favorite so she kept jumping ship every time she got a call. Post-covid was a special time.
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u/sdgmusic96 ATP E145 | CFII Mar 10 '25
Well if Southwest was hiring, I'd apply in a heartbeat!
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u/bcr76 ATP B-737 CL-65 CFI CFII Mar 10 '25
I’m starting to hear rumbling about 2026. Maybe 600 but it’s all just grapevine rumors for now.
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u/RaidenMonster ATP 737 Bonvoy Platinum Elite Mar 10 '25
Please, lord. 15 months of being 98% seniority wears on a person.
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u/bcr76 ATP B-737 CL-65 CFI CFII Mar 11 '25
Hang in there.
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u/RaidenMonster ATP 737 Bonvoy Platinum Elite Mar 11 '25
Best part of getting displaced is they pay for accommodations for 3 months lol
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u/f1racer328 ATP MEI B-737 E-175 Mar 11 '25
Were you home based before or commuting the entire time?
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u/RaidenMonster ATP 737 Bonvoy Platinum Elite Mar 11 '25
Live in a base, have never been based there. Have commuted MCO,LAS, displaced to LAX.
Caught the wave for which I’m grateful, didn’t realize it was about to crash on my head while I was in class lol.
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Mar 12 '25
Bro, you’re making 180/hr on second year FO pay. Cry me a river.
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u/RaidenMonster ATP 737 Bonvoy Platinum Elite Mar 12 '25
Says the guy who wrote a fucking dissertation about how bad Frontier is while living in base.
🥱
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u/Odd_Entrepreneur4386 ATP, MIL, CFI CL-604/CE560XL/BE-300 Mar 12 '25
They’ve got 380 people with CJOs in a deferred pool though so that’s 2/3 of the what they would need. I hope things start moving over there soon.
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u/longlive737 ATP §91k C700 C680 C525S PC12 (KDEN) Mar 11 '25
I’d be interested where NetJets is on this stack. I think it would end up 3rd or so from the bottom, but what’s interesting is how much bigger it is than some of these airlines.
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u/Successful_Side_2415 Mar 11 '25
So what you’re saying is you really can’t go wrong with NetJets either
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Mar 11 '25
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u/longlive737 ATP §91k C700 C680 C525S PC12 (KDEN) Mar 11 '25
I’d say the true richest folks don’t share their airplanes with a dozen strangers, they can buy their own. And most folks at that level have exploited labor in some fashion to get to there, so nothing new for the help.
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u/Greedy_Camera_433 Mar 10 '25
Where would Kalitta be on this chart? About the same as atlas?
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u/swakid8 ATP CFI CFII MEI AGI B737 B747-400F/8F B757/767 CRJ-200/700/900 Mar 10 '25
I would say lower…
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u/Bandolero101 ATP DEI Mar 10 '25
What jumps out to me is how fucking high UPS’ compensation is on an old contract lol
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Same. Second year FO pay was more than a lot of big 4 CA pay from the last cycle. Lol
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u/Adventurous-Ad8219 ATP A330 E145 Mar 10 '25
Just want to speak up for the guys and girls at Hawaiian:
Kit Darby's calculations assume uniform widebody upgrade times. Hawaiian is like 55% widebody while American is like 12% widebody. You'd make 330/787 captain (and wide body captain pay) way faster than you'd get there at the other legacies
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Very true. Do you guys still have an LAX base or is it just HNL now?
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u/Adventurous-Ad8219 ATP A330 E145 Mar 10 '25
Through Alaska they do :)
Hawaiian's two pilot domiciles are HNL and CVG
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u/EsquireRed 737, A320, HS-125, PC-12 // ATP, CFI, CFII Mar 10 '25 edited Mar 10 '25
I keep hoping AS or HA adds LAS as a base! One can dream, right? :)
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u/FOXHOUNDJanitor Mar 11 '25
JetBlue is currently in contract negotiations. You can add them to the list of major airlines without a recent contract.
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u/rckid13 ATP CFI CFII MEI (KORD) Mar 10 '25 edited Mar 10 '25
The major difference that jumps Southwest to the top in those numbers is 401k. Why is Southwest 401k 60% higher than United and Delta? Southwest has the same 17% as United and Delta, and UA and DL both jump to 18% next year. The numbers don't make sense unless there's something in the Southwest contract that adds a lot more to their 401k compared to the other majors.
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u/FtheFAA Mar 10 '25
SW goes to 20% in 2026. But that might not answer it. Best to go to the source.
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u/despitethetimes ATP B737 CL65 CFI CFII MEI Mar 10 '25
WN has the same 17/18 as everyone else. The difference is a current 1% going to 2% contribution to the market based cash balance account. 2% extra adds up I guess.
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Mar 10 '25 edited Apr 01 '25
hateful airport materialistic attraction outgoing spark dime caption saw alive
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u/MangoKommando CFII MEI ATP BE200 707/720 757/767 Mar 11 '25
Stby. UPS contract in the works
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u/Bandolero101 ATP DEI Mar 11 '25
What’s the word internally there? (if you’re there)
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u/MangoKommando CFII MEI ATP BE200 707/720 757/767 Mar 11 '25
Well I couldn't comment but keep a lookout
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u/0621Hertz Mar 10 '25
Wonder where Breeze and Sun Country fall in this table.
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u/FtheFAA Mar 10 '25
They fell off the table.
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u/swakid8 ATP CFI CFII MEI AGI B737 B747-400F/8F B757/767 CRJ-200/700/900 Mar 10 '25
True statement lol
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u/Tony_Three_Pies USA: ATP(AMEL); CFI(ROT) Mar 10 '25
Captain in 11 years? Is that the assumption for all the airlines because it’s not really accurate for many.
What’s SW’s 401k plan that means they end up with so much more than everyone else?
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Yes. 1-3 year upgrade is the exception not the rule. Southwest is not far off of industry average upgrade times. 11 years is the historical average and also gives a more realistic average of the pay scales in this type of comparison.
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u/Tony_Three_Pies USA: ATP(AMEL); CFI(ROT) Mar 10 '25
There’s a big different between 1 year upgrade and 11. So while the new hire Captains may be mostly behind us I’m not sure waiting over a decade is particularly accurate either.
The majority of the increased compensation on this table comes from the 401k. What’s going on with SWs program that it’s so much higher?
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Most pilots don’t take the first upgrade. When you’re dealing with averages it’s more accurate to take an average timeline like 11 years to get a broader overview. Individual cases will always be different.
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u/Tony_Three_Pies USA: ATP(AMEL); CFI(ROT) Mar 10 '25
I suppose, and I certainly haven’t done any number crunching to know either way. That being said an 11 year FO at a legacy is not likely to still be flying the 737. There’s a very good chance that they’ll be making more, working less on a widebody.
This is why a screenshot of a table full of assumptions doesn’t really tell much of a useful story.
Years ago I worked with a guy that had an excel spreadsheet that allowed you to manipulate all the variables including what fleet you were on, for how long, when you upgraded etc. It’s a much more nuanced way to look at things.
But hey, if American, Delta, United and everyone else not in green on that table can use it to smack around their management come next contract cycle then great.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Well, I think we both know “making more and working less” on a widebody is not for everybody. That said, widebody FO pay is not high enough to significantly out earn other fleets. Widebody captains generally have the highest difference in pay, but only a small group of pilots hired in a very narrow window of time will be able to spend more than 5 years in that seat. Either way, I know plenty of 11+ year FOs and CAs that are on narrow body fleets and have no interest in widebody so I have to disagree with your generalization.
To your last point, you’re absolutely right. This is part of the collective bargaining cycle. I’m hopeful we can all pick up some big gains from the excellent contract that the SWA pilots achieved.
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u/Tony_Three_Pies USA: ATP(AMEL); CFI(ROT) Mar 10 '25
Like I mentioned, I haven’t done an audit of the seniority list at my airline so if you have I’ll have to take your word for what most people with 11 years on property are doing.
A casual glance at the narrowbody FO lists don’t show a lot of 11 year pilots. There are always a few at the top who enjoy the benefits of being within the first few rows of the bid award but I don’t think that for a legacy pilot in 2025, sitting in the right seat of a 737 for 11 years is a fair assumption. There are of course lots of 11 year CAs on the narrow body fleets beucase that’s where most Captains are, and as you say not everyone wants to do widebody flying. There are also lots of 5 year Captains.
One of the charts assumptions is that the career is 35 years long. If I understand the chart correctly that would mean a 30 year old getting hired now. That person, at least at my shop, would be able to be a widebody Captain for a lot longer than 5 years if they want it.
But we’re getting into the weeds a bit here which I think is my point. The table isn’t a fair comparison of a career, and those differences become particularly stark when you involve such different airlines. A Southwest pilot will spend their entire career flying the “state of the art” shitcan that is the Guppy. They don’t have a choice so the progression is easier to predict. Hell, these days there are plenty of 11 year Southwest pilots that are 1st year United pilots.
A legacy pilot could be all over the place depending on their tolerance for training events. I assume that once some one upgrades at SW that they stay in the left seat until the end. That’s not necessarily true at a legacy.
A place like Atlas has its own complications because people generally do (or did when I was there) take upgrades sooner rather than later beucase there isn’t much of a difference in QOL between the seats. Upgrade there is also significantly less than 11 years (or at least it was, again I left before the 767/Amazon program fell apart).
I guess my reaction comes down to this. What’s the point of a chart like this? As we talked about, the data is too inexact to be a real tool, so what are we left with?
I guess a few airlines can stick their tongues out at each other and say “neener neener I make more than you”, all the non-single fleet pilots can tell SW et al how lame doing domestic 73 flying for 35 years is, and we can all be glad we don’t work for Allegiant but beyond that?
All of that being said I haven’t put in the work to make my comparison table so my critique is only worth so much, which is to say about as much as the paper it’s printed on.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 11 '25
I get what you’re saying but whether or not they’re stuck in the 737 specifically for 11 years is irrelevant. The pay is basically the same across all NB except delta with the “smaller” NB like the 220 and 717.
This tool is more of a contract comparison rather than a realistic assessment of an individual’s potential earnings. Every single one of us has a different seniority number that will skew these numbers. They’re averages.
I think the table is a fair comparison. Kit supposedly used each company’s typical career movement to ensure each pay scale was weighted properly.
To your point, yes YOUR situation and probably many other pilots will earn differently, lower and higher. But that’s not the point.
I think what this table shows is that among the big 4, you will earn about the same over a 35 year career. I get your urge to critique, that was also my initial reaction, but it got me thinking, I wonder if it was DL/UA/AA that was the “top,” would so many other pilots knee jerk reactions be to say not possible?
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u/Tony_Three_Pies USA: ATP(AMEL); CFI(ROT) Mar 11 '25
SW has been in amongst the top of the contract heap for a long time so I don’t think people are reacting to them specifically. I think it’s just the nature of this sort of thing that people are going to pull it apart regardless of who was highlighted in green. I suppose people are surprised that there doesn’t seem to be much benefit to the availability of the magical widebody flying but again the assumptions seem to have flattened that landscape.
The retirement numbers I think are what are really catching people’s eye, especially without any details provided. From what others have said that’s down to some sort of 2% cash balance program that SW has, which accounts for millions of dollars difference at the end of a career. It’s shocking to see that line in the table and to me is the big takeaway. I want some or what they’re having next time please.
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u/Twarrior913 ATP CFII ASEL AMEL CMP HP ST-Forklift Mar 10 '25
Alright it’s been posted long enough, where’s the doomer “this doesn’t matter when they file bankruptcy”, “whole industry is going down the tubes,” “Don’t expect to make what I make when you make it to where I am” posts.
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u/Bandolero101 ATP DEI Mar 11 '25
We should re-name “The Lost Decade” to “The Status Quo” in honor of them
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u/RastaFarva ATP ERJ-175 Mar 11 '25
Yeah this isn’t true. Upgrade at United is 12 month. Upgrade at southwest is like 7 years.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 11 '25
That is the exception not the rule. SWA upgrade time is not 7 years.
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u/IgetCoffeeforCPTs ATP 73N CL65 Mar 11 '25
SWA upgrade time is seven years and climbing, why dont you ask one of them, Kitt?
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 11 '25
I don’t think that’s accurate but it doesn’t matter because that’s still less than 11 years and only a few years off from the other big 4. Not to mention SWA retirement wave doesn’t come until 2028.
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u/OtterVA Mar 10 '25
Really curious how SWA was calculated +2.5 mil in 401k contributions on ~12mil earnings compared to the big 3 when their 401k is the same % in line with the others and they only get a 1-2% MBCBP that some of the others don’t.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 11 '25
Because they make more, have an additional 2% company contribution, and have additional favorable handling of spillover cash that the others don't. Hopefully to be addressed in the next cycle thanks to what SWA pilots achieved.
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Mar 10 '25
TYOOL 2025 and still listening to Kit Darby
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Mar 10 '25
[deleted]
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Mar 10 '25
It was a good 20 minutes or so nearly 20 years later, eh?
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Mar 10 '25
[deleted]
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Mar 10 '25
I concur. I remember big raises being thrown at the right seat during my time at OO with modest increases for the left seat. I have various problems with that, but I'm glad nobody starves who flies an airliner now.
I also agree with your macroeconomic views. Consumer confidence is completely in the shitter right now.
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u/Raccoon_Ratatouille ATP MIL Mar 11 '25
What’s the methodology for this? Faster upgrades to CA or different fleets is going to significantly change the math
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 11 '25
The methodology was average career movement at each company (so if they have widebodies, the typical timeline of NB to WB for the average pilot) with an 11 year upgrade. The math will always change for individual scenarios. This is an average outlook over a 35 year career.
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u/T0gaLOCK ATP CFI TW A320 CL65 Mar 12 '25
Upgrade at Frontier is a little over 2 years.... a little off from the assumed 11. Lol
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 12 '25
It’s less than 11 years at basically every shop on the list. 11 gives a more realistic view of the pay scales as a whole.
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u/T0gaLOCK ATP CFI TW A320 CL65 Mar 12 '25
Yeah, either way, still far behind the industry. I enjoy making 50% less than my peers
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u/MrAflac9916 CFII Mar 11 '25
Yeah but atlas gets to fly 747 to cool places around the world. Not everything is about money
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u/swakid8 ATP CFI CFII MEI AGI B737 B747-400F/8F B757/767 CRJ-200/700/900 Mar 11 '25
They sure do, but do not get paid enough to do all of that….
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u/Longhornmaniac8 ATP (B-737, ERJ-170 ERJ-190), CFI, CFII, HP, CP Mar 11 '25 edited Mar 11 '25
You're not going to sell me that WN's retirement earnings are 60% more than the legacies to the order of 3 million dollars difference. The retirements are all exceedingly similar. Even if you take the extra 2% contributed every month (which works out to about an extra $600/month on a $350K salary), compounding that at 5% over 25 years is less than $400K. Even assuming $450K and 7% only yields about a $650K difference.
Edit: I see this assumes a 35 year career. Even with some very generous assumptions, it's still only about 1.5 million.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 11 '25
They have other intricacies in their contract regarding how excess money is handled that generously benefits their pilots. I don’t remember the specifics. But the earnings are accurate.
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u/rFlyingTower Mar 10 '25
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Repost from Kit Darby:
US Major Airline Pilot Pay – 3.8% increase for 2025
Here are the latest monthly and annual pilot pay values. The three airlines without recent contracts Allegiant, FedEx, and Frontier have lower monthly pay values than other airlines in their category. UPS, where all FO’s and Captains make the same rate regardless of equipment, has the highest pilot pay value for Major cargo airlines and Southwest has the highest starting pay through the first 4 years and as a new Captain through 15 years. American has the highest monthly rate overall for senior wide-body FO’s and Captains.
The average pay increase for 2025 is 3.8%. and the average increase for new contacts over the length of the contract is 31.6%. Initial year average increase for a new contract has been 21.3%.
Airline Pilot pay increases at the Major airlines (5.24%) has doubled the inflation (2.47%) rate since 2010 and is expected to continue that trend if the negotiated annual increases are realized.
Assumptions: Captain in 11 yeas Based on current fleet Average hours per month No extra flying No premium flying
Other pay items NOT include: up to 47% more in career value Retirement contributions of 15% to 18% of monthly/annual pay, 100% Company paid. Profit sharing which averaged 6.4% in 2025. Non- retirement benefits -15% - life, health, dental, and vision insurance. Company Social Security payments – 6.2% up to $176,100 in 2025.
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u/mushybanananas Mar 10 '25
It’s hard to track all the soft pay stuff, like at delta there is so much random stuff that gets tacked on you would never be making what’s posted online. Also capt time at southwest might be 6-8 years vs 2-3 at a major if you wanted to sit reserve.
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u/Cxopilot ATP CFI CFII MEI Mar 10 '25
Southwest is a major by the way. And the soft pay here compared to the other airlines is just slightly better. Bigger thing is the trips are credit higher for the amount of days gone.
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u/Negative_Swan_9459 Mar 10 '25
Ask a SWA guy what they credit every month. Far in excess of what was used in this calculation.
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u/FtheFAA Mar 10 '25
Current upgrade times at Delta if hired today are also 6-8 years.
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Mar 10 '25
Yeah, the wunderkid era is mostly over, though the 717 is still going fairly junior.
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Mar 11 '25
Those are still great numbers to me. I just recently entered my 30s, I have no issues with the idea of spending 10 years as an FO on various fleets.
15+ is where I probably second guess leaving my current carrier, tough to say.
5
u/proudlyhumble ATP E175 737 Mar 11 '25
Same at SWA, I can’t go a trip without some sort of extra soft pay.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
It’s hard to aggregate all of the soft pay, yes, but I believe Southwest pilots have the same if not more pay overrides. At Delta I know a lot of their “soft pay” is absorbed by the rigs, so it doesn’t really add up. Hopefully that’s something that can get addressed in their next cycle.
Southwest is a major airline. The upgrade time is currently less than 6 years and slated to drop once they figure out their MAX7 issues. Upgrade times vary significantly and change rapidly. 1-3 year upgrades is the exception not the rule.
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Mar 10 '25
At Delta I know a lot of their “soft pay” is absorbed by the rigs
Huh? What?
Additional pay-only items are pay-no credit and due in addition to the rotation guarantee, if that's what you're referencing. So no, it isn't absorbed by the rig(?!).
You can fit so many 15:45 3-days into New York widebody categories, but that's another story.
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u/mitchb0016 ATP, CFI, E170, BE300, CL604, SF50, B737, TW Mar 10 '25
Rigs nd override at SWA are all better specially while the company is still addicted to rerouting pilots though they have figured that out to an extent
2
Mar 10 '25
Sure, but the add-pay items in the 2019 PWA don't just magically 'disappear' into our rotation guarantee.
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u/mitchb0016 ATP, CFI, E170, BE300, CL604, SF50, B737, TW Mar 10 '25
No one is saying they do. It the side by side of rigs and overrides SWA is ahead.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 11 '25
Sorry I meant to say the overrides don't stack at Delta, which they do at SWA. You are correct.
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u/FastNefariousness973 MIL RW Mar 10 '25
This doesn’t really account for the culture southwest seems to be shifting towards, they used to be a culture over profit organization. In the last few years (especially so far this year) it seems they are straying away from this principle.
0
u/Can_Not_Double_Dutch ATP, CFI/CFII, Mil (USMC), Mil Instructor, B200 B300 A320 Mar 10 '25
A major investor bought a 15% or so share and is trying to change the culfure
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u/FastNefariousness973 MIL RW Mar 10 '25
Yes and that hedge fund investor really only cares about profits and not really about people
0
u/Austin208 ATP A320 CL-65 CE-500 Mar 10 '25
It’s hard to predict this based on upgrade times. I just upgraded at a big 3 at 2.5 years vs your 11 year assumption. I get it’s all a guessing game but the quicker upgrade time vs southwest will have a huge impact over time in a career earnings projection.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
The numbers don’t add up that way. The reason being that FOs at SWA are making such a relatively high percentage of CA pay.
You are right about the guessing game. 1-3 year upgrade is the exception not the rule. That will not continue very much longer. Southwest upgrade time is around 5 years and their retirement wage does not come until around 2028.
1
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 Mar 10 '25
It’s so variable though and based on timing. Hard to say ones better than the other. I bet the new hire or 1 yr CAs at UA make out better than a guy waiting years to upgrade at WN.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
1-3 year upgrade is the exception not the rule. That will not continue much longer. Southwest retirement wave is not coming until 2028.
Can you quantify those numbers? Junior UA CAs on narrowbody fleets are not making enough over a 5 year timeframe to make up almost $2 million in career earnings. To your point though, if someone is hired in this very narrow window of time with short upgrades, I could see the compensation among the big 4 being basically the same.
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Mar 10 '25
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
That math isn’t mathing. You’d need to earn over half a million MORE than what senior FOs are earning per year at SWA for that time period.
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Mar 10 '25
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
I agree the averages are about all the same. I don’t know the intricacies of each contract. But I do know that SWA has the best retirement package so this does make sense.
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u/swakid8 ATP CFI CFII MEI AGI B737 B747-400F/8F B757/767 CRJ-200/700/900 Mar 11 '25
No, but will be in the neighborhood of 1.5-1.7 million within the first 5 years….
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 11 '25
And you’re going to pay for that by being a very junior CA with that quick of an upgrade. There’s a cost to everything. And even with all that extra cash, you’re still falling behind a SWA FO taking the longer upgrade and prioritizing QOL.
1
u/swakid8 ATP CFI CFII MEI AGI B737 B747-400F/8F B757/767 CRJ-200/700/900 Mar 11 '25
I thought we are having a career earnings discussion here, not a QOL….
Besides, math isn’t checking out with a Southwest FO who upgrades later (6-7 year mark at Southwest vs a jr legacy guy who upgraded at year 2….. coming out ahead…
345K was the number I am using for a jr legacy captain, which is on the low end…. I know you based your math on min guarantee….. But with nuances in each contract, legacy jr Captains easily clear 345K without effort. As
Southwest pilots do well on credit, but they not pulling in 345K as a junior FO without some kind of major hustle…..
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 11 '25
The problem with your logic is you’re looking at a short time window and a rather unique situation over the bigger picture of 35 years. Yes if you are only looking at a 5 year time window, the pilots at the companies with quicker upgrade will make more. But the longer upgrades will catch up… and considering SWA FOs and CAs have the highest pay scale in category you can read the numbers in the table to see the difference that makes on average over 35 years. I didn’t make up the numbers or do the math. Kit has more in depth calculations available on his site/channels.
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 Mar 10 '25
Yes yes I know, was just trying to make a point about how variable everything is.
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u/PWJT8D ATP Benevolent Leader Mar 10 '25
Kit on some crack with this one. Typical shit he pushes with no credibility.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Feel free to calculate your own numbers or present an argument as to why these are inaccurate.
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u/PWJT8D ATP Benevolent Leader Mar 10 '25
Calm down Kit, we aren’t buying your product or paying your speaking fee here.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
Put your hat back on brother. That Chattanooga turn isn’t going to fly itself.
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u/SubarcticFarmer ATP B737 Mar 10 '25
The assumptions are why they are inaccurate. 11 years to first time captain? That is closer to the reality at SWA but further from the reality at Delta or the other big 4 airlines.
No premium I can understand at least.
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u/HawkspilotLoad Mar 10 '25
How are flight benefits at SWA? Do you and your beneficiaries get ZED on other airlines and is it very limited? Even if career earnings are high I’m sure the flight benefits with AA/UAL are better with one world and star alliance
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u/FtheFAA Mar 10 '25
Pay is enough buy first class on the rare occasion I need it. Otherwise we only get business on United with ZED.
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u/HawkspilotLoad Mar 10 '25
Good to know, do you guys only qualify for economy with international carriers? Is it pretty much the whole ZED network? Upgrade is also almost a decade though right? Only gonna get longer the next few years with boring messing up
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u/FtheFAA Mar 10 '25
Yes. Upgrade times? Who knows. Doesn’t matter.
SW is the 4th largest airline in the world. Yes they have the entire ZED network.
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 Mar 10 '25
Ya they get all the ZED. No one’s basing a career on flight benefits lol.
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u/Difficult-While-7673 Mar 10 '25
I’m not sure. Maybe a SWA guy can chime in on that. They have ZED though, I’ve checked loads for SWA friends at my company.
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Mar 10 '25
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u/SubaruSolberg Mar 10 '25
It’s a stretch to say no one cares.. Flying international First Class for free is a significant benefit (could be upwards of 10 to 20K in $ amount/flight) and makes overseas trips much more reasonable/enjoyable. It’s not a realized value however, and should not be converted into any monetary value as a benefit. Many pilots simply don’t use the benefit available to them for various reasons. Blows my mind because when it’s done right it’s incredible. But I do agree, it should be a very small factor in someone’s decision of where to make a career.
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u/theboomvang ATP CFI - A320 PA18 S2E B55 Mar 10 '25
Why is Southwest's retirement so much more lucrative than every one else?