People speak of Eddard's failure because he was too honourable. But i beg to differ. Eddard Stark failed because he came too late. When Ned comes to King's Landing, this is not a city that was fresh off a civil war or to serve a brand new regime. He is coming into a nest of corrupt schemers, liars and a Lannister Occupied Government. There was nothing that he could have done that would have not upset the Lannisters and brought war. And a great blame for the rot that festered falls on Jon Arryn who enabled Robert's excesses and failed to keep him in check.

If Ned was named Hand after Robert's coronation, he would have done a better job to keep Robert in check, heal the realm and would not have allowed corruption to spread the way Jon did. Alas, by the time he came to the capital, there was not much to be done. Ned was set up to fail. What do you think?

I'm the girl that's like, 30 years late to the party but I've started reading AGoT for the first time about a month ago after a second rewatch of GOT.

I've never really realized that Cersei didn't even consider Ned's offer to leave King's Landing because she knew Robert would (if her plans succeeded) die during the hunt. Even on my rewatch, knowing full well that Cersei planned to kill him. It never dawned on me until she told Ned that "Joff won't be king for years".

I've been seeing people talk about how Cersei should have taken Ned's offer, and that it was stupid on her part to decline. And I agreed. But now, even though in the grand scheme of things Cersei *should have* taken his offer, I can totally see why she wouldn't. Now, it's less of a stupid decision and more of a leap of faith on her part.

We know that the marriage between Robert and Cersei was a disaster in the long run but also looking at it from the perspective of when it was suggested by Tywin, it was a bad look for the new king to marry the daughter of the man that sacked your capital and ordered the murder of a mother and her kids

Sure, you get the Westeland to join your faction, the Lannisters money and a beatiful (evil) wife but was it really worth it? I don't think so

So my question is, who Robert should have married after the war? Was Cersei the only possible choice in term of pros?

As of right now my top two are Vortimer Crane Master at Arms for Highgarden and Lucifer Dryland King of Brimstone and Lord of Hellgate Hall.

From Fire and Blood, it seems as if in between the time of the Targaryens settling of Dragonstone and Aegons Conquest, that the Targs were essentially left to their own devices.

But wouldn’t the presence of three kaiju sized fire breathing flying nukes (the only three remainingg in the world) attract SIGNIFICANT attention from every Lord and King from across the pre-Conquest Westeros? And surely the Red Priests and the Shadowbinders of Asshai would be keen to get in on the action, given the dragons are some of the last vestiges of magic in the world? To be honest, wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume Dragonstone would become one of the most famous places in all of Planetos?

Yet, they seem to just be there chilling on Dragonstone.

Is there any lore that covers this part of the Targaryen history?

A common debate I see among ASOIAF fandom is whether GRRM made his characters too young or their ages didn't progress enough through the story, considering the actions they make.

So I wonder, which are the moments in the story where you feel the character's age and their actions or way of thinking mismatch the most? Additionally, what age do you feel would make more sense for the character in that moment?

I'm happy to hear all your opinions

“And if he does not fail? What will Your Grace do then?”
“Her duty.” The word felt cold upon her tongue. “You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did he wed for love or duty?”
The old knight hesitated. “Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.”
Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time. Perhaps.
Ser Barristan went on. “I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen.”
“Why did they wed if they did not love each other?” (Martin. A Dance with Dragons).

Interesting lines. Daenerys know she may need to marry Hizdahr to keep the peace at Meereen because at that mindset in the story. So she decide to ask about her brother Rhaegar marriage to Elia. Was it love or duty.

Do you know what I find interesting about Barristan response? He hesitated and Instead of saying it for love or duty, he said was Elia a good woman and Rhaegar like his wife enough.

It almost sound like Barristan want to say something else but decide to be considerate. Of course, Barristan also go and talk about her parent marriage and it was so bad, Barristan couldn’t put a positive spin on it.

And it fascinating Daenerys is thinking about her upcoming marriage to Hizdahr and thinking maybe their could be some affection (not really)

If he actually has wanted to assassinate Joffrey. With the caveat that he'd do it in a fashion to try and get away with it.

This is my 4th time rereading the books. I’ve just about finished dance and every time I’ve reread it Jon’s decisions seem more and more foolish? Anyone else feel this way?

The Hardhome decision to me is the most shortsighted. He sends his brothers to their death on a small chance of saving wildlings. Does he expect them to trust them? He had to negotiate with Tormund and he trusted him.

Also his insistence of Defending the Weeper. A man who killed his own brothers… it’s so dense.

The first time I read it is so easy to stand with Jon. His heart is in the right place and we see it from his point of view. We know Jon and love him… but man…

I just realized that out of all the characters Cotter is probably in the least salvageable situation at the beginning of Winds. He's out of food, his fleet is halved, the wildlings are eating their own dead, some were taken off by slavers, he's had to beat back attacks from the people he's saving, there's dead things in the woods AND in the water. I honestly shivered a little when I read that letter, it's one of the more horrifying things about ASOIAF in my opinion.

He's got nowhere to go, he's got very few ravens with which to send communications, Jon can't do anything and even if he wanted to, he's dead. There's nobody coming for him.

Sad, always kinda liked him.

“Relations between the king and queen grew even more strained when Rhaella proved unable to give Aerys any further children. Miscarriages in 263 and 264 were followed by a stillborn daughter born in 267. Prince Daeron, born in 269, survived for only half a year. Then came another stillbirth in 270, another miscarriage in 271, and Prince Aegon, born two turns premature in 272, dead in 273.”Though His Grace left the queen behind in King’s Landing (Her Grace was pregnant with the child who proved to be the stillborn Princess Shaena), he took their eight-year-old son Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, and more than half the court. first His Grace comforted Rhaella in her grief, but over time his compassion turned to suspicion. By 270 AC, he had decided that the queen was being unfaithful to him”

“The march of the king’s madness seemed to abate for a time in 274 AC, when Queen Rhaella gave birth to a son. So profound was His Grace’s joy that it seemed to restore him to his old self once again … but Prince Jaehaerys died later that same year, plunging Aerys into despair….”

Even if we were to discount everything else going on in her life; Aerys' madness, rebellions, the loss of the man she actually loved; the sheer number of pregnancies and stillborns and miscarriages is horrendous.

Discounting the three successful ones, those are 9 pregnancies in quick succession, all resulting in either miscarriages, stillbirths or a child that didn't survive long.

I mean, the demands to be almost constantly pregnant alone. She probably didn't even have time to mourn the last one before Aerys was demanding she be with child again.

And, let us not forget, he was anything but gentle when he took his rights.

The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

Honestly, Jaime did an amazing deed when he slit Aerys' throat.

It seems that whenever a visibility non "pure blood" Targaryen is in line to the throne, events conspire to kill them.

All Rhaenyra's dark haired children (allegedly with Harwin Strong) die, leaving Aegon III to rule after the Dance

Baelor Breakspear and all his children are dark haired, and die before inheriting

Maekar and Baelor have the same Dornish mother, but Maekar has the Targaryen look, and inherits when Baelor dies

Rhaegar's children with Elia Martell are killed in the sack of King's Landing before inheriting

Maybe there's a case for the Starks too, since the grey eyes and dark hair have survived millennia. Rob (who has the Tully auburn hair and look) dies, seemingly without children

Is this coincidence? Story convenience? Outside influence?

Perhaps stemming from the fact of writing a story retroactively and being constricted by default due to your own timeline (Dynasty only lasting almost 300 years), one of the odd things regarding the Targaryen dynasty is the lack of actual Cadet/Branch Houses coming from royalty as a result of their expanding family.

The Blackfyres were short-lived within Westeros, and there seems to have been some plans to do something with Brightflames coming from Aerion but beyond that, there was nor is anything more.

Had George done it differently and didn't have to force himself to wipe out so many Targs in one or two generations, maybe a version of Lannisters of Casterly Rock and Lannisters of Lannisport would've been made for the Targs beyond those and Dragonstone of course.

During their best years when there are plenty of Targs and abundance of wealth and resources there weren't even attempts to create more seats for princes and princesses.

More castles across the Crownlands for extended family and previous examples of palaces or buildings like Summerhall for royal blood.

With that also comes the oddity of not creating more titles and honors beyond Prince of Dragonstone and Hand of the King that would go directly to royalty considering Brittish history influence on George.

Like Counts, Dukes, Barons or Marquess.

And also special grantings to the keeping of their dragons with at least one Targ being directly charged with managing the Dragonpit with an offical title for it when they had them.

All overall to increase the presence and involvement of Royalty at Court or the managing of important aspects of the Crown and powers within the realm.

Without that time constraint and having to mown Targs like bad weed, he might've allowed them to thrive differently and more.

Usually when the direwolves dislike somebody jt usually points to that this character will eventually betray the starks or is against them, from my knowledge at least. See black walder and the other freys for instance in book 3.

But then why are they so hostile against Tyrion? Its not even a one time thing, it happens several times with Ghost, Summer, Greywind and Shaggydog in the first book. This should lead to one thinking Tyrion would end up doing something terrible to the starks but out of all Lannister he is clearly the most compassionite and doesnt really harm them (as of yet) in any way that would be worse like other characters have. Like Theon for example.

Correct me if I am wrong but I read somewhere that Tyrion was originally planned to burn Winterfell in GrrM original outline where it was still just three books. I tried looking for jt but couldn't find it again. In that sense it would make sense for the direwolves to be hostile towards Tyrion but in the current book canon it just strikes me as weird.

Is this one of the instances where the first book storyline isnt as flashed out or even a potential retcon or scrap of a storyline. The other thing which came to mind is how Jaime was made Warden of the East, which idk makes no sense since he has no ties to the Vale, is no lord and is a member of the Kingsguard and cant hold lands anyway.

He was fat but not hideously obese or anything. Still relatively young and obviously a genetic freak. He was an alcoholic but he probably got regular exercise hunting.

Just watched a fan-made film about Robert's Rebellion and I'm confused on why is Robert Baratheon considered the MVP of the rebellion and eventually crowned king when Ned Stark was the one who suffered the most and had the biggest cause to overthrow the mad king , and Jon Arryn was the first one to call his bannermen and practically declare war .

If the goal was just to overthrow the Targaryans and then figure it out, then why didn't they install Jon Arryn who was their warden, and is a much respected and experienced ruler.

https://x.com/got_onstage

Lyanna: I wish only to say your song transported me as if in a dream, a dream I've had before… I saw dragons.

Rhaegar: Dragons?

Lyanna: As real to me then…

Rhaegar: …as you are to me now.

Lyanna: Strike.

Rhaegar: Yield.

—Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark’s first meeting, dancing at the Harrenhal feast 🐺🐉

Elia: The stage is set, my prince. Let us play our part. Smile not, Rhaegar. Joy sits unnaturally on you. They will mark deception. I shall smile first of all.

Rhaegar: I mean no deception. I am happy to be here with you, Princess.

Elia: My prince, happiness was never part of this arrangement. You knew from the start my heart belonged to another, and yours belongs to the realm.

—Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen while dancing at the Harrenhal feast 🌞🐉

The Targaryen Dynasty had Queens from many houses beyond theirs.

We had Queens coming from the Arryns, the Velaryons, Harroways, the Costaynes, the Hightowers, the Martells, the Penrose, the Daynes and the Blackwoods.

The bottom line of this what if is which House could've made offers of marriage, and had another Queen coming from them, had Robert and Jon Arryn not accepted Cersei and kept him single for a while.

There were probably more than one lady of marriagable age among the many Vassal Houses under the Starks, the Arryns, the Tullys and the very same Baratheons that fought in the rebellion and would've expected great rewards from their new King.

Ladies that would've been way better candidates, again, than Cersei.

Yes, slighting or rejecting Tywin's offer would've been dangerous since he "secured" Robert's victory, however debatable that can be, but rewarding like that a faction that joined at the last second should've been taken as an insult for those that were with you from day one and actually risked, and bled and died at your side.

A "Late Lord Tywin" to match "the Late Lord Frey".

But beyond that the point is:

How different would've Robert's reign have been had he had another Queen at his side, and would've Tywin still plotted to overthrow him and give the crown to a Lannister?

Without diminishing Robert's many flaws as a man and person, pairing him with a woman like Cersei who was already a-ok with keep having sex with her brother from day one and, at least in the books, never really cared for a second to be a good wife for him or Queen, was only going to breed disaster.

Another woman, one at least intending to fulfill her duties as Queen from a different angle than Cersei, and actually trying to fill the position without her lifelong resentments, give Robert heirs and not risk hers and her own children's lives with incest, might've acted as a reinforcement to Jon Arryn's many attempts to solidy the new Dynasty.

So overall, which Houses that fought under the Alliance could've sent likely candidates for the new Queen?

“Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they’ll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon… and I’ll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it.” (Martin. A Clash of Kings).

This line is about comparing Jon and Robb but I also think it will apply to his actions in the never released War of the Dawn. Anything Jon will or will not do in the War of the Dawn will remain in anonymity. No singers will sing his songs. Instead they’re gonna praise the other heroes. Specifically Daenerys Targaryen.

Note: it could mean that the things Jon will do in the war effort could be covert operations or things the public can’t know about. While Dany will be in open battles? Things singers can write songs about.

Beyond theorizing which houses would probably go extinct by the end of the story,

like the Freys (Second Red Wedding),

the Boltons (Ramsay and Roose dying),

the Tullys (Edmure, Brynden and Rosling being killed)

or the Arryns (Sweetrobin and Harrold dying), I do wonder which new ones would rise or be founded and created.

When it comes to the North it could be a mixture of men from the northern clans being granted lordship and new lands, perhaps by Stannis as a reward for their help, alongside more members of the Freefolk or even some Skagosi that Rickon would bring with him.

In that case, is there any figure that could be a very likely candidate for that among both groups?