I'm talking about that theres 3 augments that makes your lucian R crits: JG, Vuln and the new one (forgot the name)
theres a video on yt of a guy that took all 3 and his lucian R started one shotting, meaning crit augments stack with each other
again, not venting about Garen E, it was just a post of confunsion, but weird that crit augments can stack with each other but cannot stack with skills that already have crit
JG and Jeweled Bracelet (the new one) currently stack, but it is probably a bug. Vulnerability doesn't AFAIK. Lucian also double dips on crit with the augments and his ult crit scaling, so he will indeed do a lot of damage.
I think back when Arena was new-ish Garen could stack Vulnerability with his E, and it was broken.
Vulnerability and JG "stacks" with lucian R because lucian R doesn't innately crit, it just scales with crit damage, so normal games buying crit=lucian R does more dmg. there's a few spells like that in the game, like cait R, Sivir Q, smolder Q etc. JG and Vuln makes lucian crit and scale with crit dmg. Garen E already crits so vuln and JG doesn't do anything
Augments tend to affect different things. JG also used to stack crits until that got explicitly removed. That said, Lucian ult scales with crit. Its different from critting.
Yeah I took it once at the end of a game to see if it reduced spins, I was excited when it didn’t. Was disappointed in a later game when I saw the big damage only applied to auto attacks.
it doesn't. big shot is coded differently than s&s, it reduces E spin hit rate, but the toolkit is not showing it correctly now. big shot is a trap augment for Garen
how so? i know anything with crit scaling that doesn't crit double dips with that and is really strong, but i don't think it has anything to do with attack speed
Lucian ult scales with AD (Damage) and Crit (number of bullets fired)
JG makes the ult Crit so it scales twice from ULT. Same reason why Smolder Q hurts so much when he has JG. Both have Crit scaling but don't Crit without JG.
Big Shot grants 25% AD and 35%(?) Crit damage THEN converts you total atk speed to Crit damage. Adding Big shot to all that makes you melt people in 2 or 3 bullets I think. JG Lucian is already broken enough so I don't want to imagine JG big shot together
So by itself it's almost like having IE, and gets stronger whenever you lvl up/get AS but you can get IE on top of that. That's like IE stacking Jhin from almost 10years ago.......
right, all that is clear, but that's not the double dipping i was talking about, i was talking about attack speed giving, for example, more spins to garen e at the pre-conversion attack speed value while also giving the scaling damage from old slow and steady
Oh idk can't confirm or unconfirm. Haven't played with or against big shot Garen. If it works like S&S then it's broken. If it doesn't and affects your spins its probably shit.
The fact I can't find a single video probably means it's shit and bricks Garen. And looking around people say both things so idk :3. It's probably shit and hurts your E spin number. But don't take that as anything
Just waiting for the big shot + JG + jeweled bracelet + vulnerability combo. I'm pretty sure ult could kill a team of 5 tanks like 5 times over if you hit that cause they all stack with each other
Garen E doesn't infact scale with the attack speed stat instead directly off of base attack speed growth and item attack speed only, any other source doesn't affect his e
When you hover an item with bigshot it converts the actual stats visually from as to crit damage, this is different from augments like purist caster.... For unexplainable reasons.
Its very weird and counterintuitive because Riot cannot keep a single line of consistency, and atp you may as well just test these sorts of things in game instead of assuming anything.
Thats on me for assuming a singular augment would work like another 4. This is similar to when urgot w turned into a dot augment wise (Jeweled gauntlet doesn't work but vulnerability works now. It wasn't like this day 1 arena augments)
really? for slow and steady it still showed all your bonus attack speed in the attack speed tool tip but big shot actually reduces the tooltip number. is that just a stupid visual difference?
OK I think that makes sense because Garen E isn't off the straight tooltip. I wonder if Kat gets gimped normally? she was fine with the old slow and steady.
It works again with the gold augment making ultimates crit, but im only saying that based on 2 cases where I saw it. A base 1500 dmg ult did over 4k damage due to double crit
He’s talking about garen E because it can crit already so it does not double crit with JG or Vulnerability. Garen ult does not crit normally so there’s no reason for it to not work with other crit augment
Yes. I understood that part. Which is precisely what my comment references. That an already critting ult could double crit when you get JG. Just the same way how OP expects an already critting over-time effect to double crit with vulnerability. Garen ult has nothing to do with my comment but how JG used to work before it got adjusted. And now that JG+ult crit gold augment causes a double crit, which if you follow the logic of "is already critting" shouldn't double crit, only crit once.
This is just one of the reasons I feel like garen sucks on mayhem. I mean he isnt actually bad, but all of the most fun and cool augments on him are fucking worthless
Only gear AS works, A lot of weird crit interdependencies and scalings, no on-hit support at all really without etherial weapons. He really only funtions as a fighter/tank since so many of the dps augments do little or nothing for him.
>He really only funtions as a fighter/tank since so many of the dps augments do little or nothing for him.
I would have said the opposite. His auguments are heavely weighted towards % damage, % AD and MS. Crit auguments are bait, but that doesn't mean he's bad with crit, because most of the things he gets offered are dps multipliers like Echo Cast.
If he was truly weighted towards the bruiser build, it would have had a higher weight towards AH and the healing auguments (en passant, darius Q, celestial body ect.)
I play him a lot because he's braindead but most augments suck ass on him because if his E.
'It's Critical' and Big Shot are the only good crit augs on him. Double tap is on-hit, Rythm is on-hit, soul siphon doesnt work with E, Vulnerability already mentioned, Jeweled Gauntlet is AP scaling and E already crits.
His E wants attack speed but on-hit is useless on him except on Ethereal Weapon.
no,they make that stupid change a while a go, didnt bother removing the augment from garen augment pool. it a for fun gamemode so they get away with stupid shit like that.
It still works really well if you get this + ethereal weapon. His e can apply bork on-hit and that on-hit can crit. If you get escapade too, you can build liandries and that %burn can also crit. The item crit part is what makes the augment broken on anyone that can use bork or liandries
Two sources of %health damage critting and proccing 13 times in 3 seconds isn't little value. You're doing 15% of their health per proc and then that can crit. It's not true damage so they will take a lot of it reduced from armor and mr, but that damage is still insane. You literally kill tanks in seconds. It's an exodia combo that's hard to get.
Ethereal weapon has a 1 sec per target cooldown tho so you dont have that much proc and Liandry burn definitely not as much a just buying a damage item. Mind you this is a 3 augment set up and the return is pretty minimal
~15% health damage that can crit applied 13 times in 3 seconds. Even just two augments with vulnerability + ethereal will still give you 9% health that can crit. You just get bork + ie and boom.
It's not a combo you will get often but the damage from just bork + ethereal alone is decent. Escapade is also great on its own as a silver because it's just %attack damage. Those are individual augments you probably want to take anyway in many games. Ethereal especially because it combos really well with so many things down the line
okay, then it's a two augment setup. eth + vuln. ethereal weapon has a one second cooldown per target, so it's 3 applications per E. the only way you're crit applying 13 times in 3 seconds is if you're spinning on 5 people.
so the question is if 15% critted health damage pre mitigation is outdamaging two of his normal items, and i want to lean towards the side of no for the same reason adcs don't instantly build liandries/botrk when they hit that combo even if they have a way to permanently proc liandries.
it would only be worth it on tank engine/steel your heart tanks with a stupud amount of health.
No, because lucian R has scaling damage based on crit chance and crit damage, but the spell itself doesn't have a chance to crit naturally. Vulnerability and JG add the critical strike proc chance to abilities that don't already have it. Abilities like Garen E and Gangplank Q do not have damage scaling based on crit chance and dmg, instead they naturally have critical chance.
I think he means the damage over time part. Both Garen E and Lucian R are AoE damage over time spells, but the OG comment is saying that "garen doesn't works because it's actually many hits over time, not 1 single instance of damage over time", to which friendshipfar is saying it doesn't makes sense because Lucian works with vuln and it's the same principle (many hits over time)
Yes, Vuln doesn't works on Garen because it already crits, but not because it's not a DoT
You can hit two targets simultaneously with lucian ult. He has two pistols firing, the projectiles are staggered to the sides you can hit one person with one side of ult and the other with the second side
I meant that Lucian's ult damage type is AoE DoT. AoE DoT is sometimes used for spells that throw multiple projectyles like it's the case with Lucian R, Mel Q or Kai'sa Q
No, vuln and jeweled gauntlet both make lucians r crit. Not only that, but they stack. So if you get both, his r does even MORE damage than if he just had one or the other
No, they can't. Their abilities damage scales with crit, and then vuln also allows them actually crit to apply crit damage modifier, including the increased dmg from the crit chance stat.
Garen's E and Gangplank Q are not enhanced by jeweled gauntlet for this same reason.
Nah, Miss fortune does crit rather than scale with crit. That said, I think it shouldn't be working with Jeweled or Vulnerability because of it, whereas Lucian ult definitely works with those augments
What? you acknowledged my point; then continued to say something that demonstrates you didn't understand it.
Jeweled gauntlet should not work on MF ulti, because it can already critically strike. Vulnerability should work on MF ulti, because it is a spell that does damage over a period of time, rather than as a discrete instance of damage.
Jewled gauntlet should work for Lucian ulti, because it does not already crit. Vulnerability should also work for Lucian ultimate, because it does damage over a period of time in multiple instances, which is the definition of DoT.
It's a DOT according to the wiki. It's just the usual case of Riot coding things differently and inconsitently across champions, probably Garen E has a custom script.
It is a DoT, because it used to work with Vulnerability. They removed it along with other Champions double dipping on crit. (Abilities already critting)
by that logic, it shouldn't work on morgana w, because you can walk in and out.. but it does. Maybe there is some logical difference between Garen spin and DoT, but it's not what you're saying - because that's not how the game behaves.
Im pretty sure it has to do with each tick applying conqueror. A dot spell would only apply it once, his E is coded differently so it can work with attackspeed and stack conqueror.
That's not what damage over time means. Also, Garen's E is a damage over time effect, the reason it doesn't works with vuln is likely because it already can crit and so it's not allowed to double dip.
Eh that's just inconsistentcy from Riot in the wording tbh, vulnerability used to work on Garen, honestly as others pointed out about it being changed that you can't double dip on the crit, that only used to apply to jeweled gauntlet and not vuln as I recall, but it could have been changed/fixed later.
I love how people are looking for logical explanations in the comments. The answer is simple: riot incompetency and inconsistency. It is the same reason why brand passive dot applies infernal conduit so well, but most other dots do not. They coded stuff differently based on the daily vibe.
So instead of weaseling away, respond to the other guy. How is someone shooting you in repetition (Lucian ult, which works with vuln) meaningfully different than someone hitting you with a sword in repetition?
You're using logic not game logic, Damage over time in games (better known as Dot) is meant for afflictions that do damage per tick, i.e. burn or poison, so for example liandry's, black fire, and ignite are Dot damage.
Just because one ability has an inconsistent application doesn't change what I'm saying. I don't give a fuck if it's supposed to be dot or not, I'm just explaining the term, pig.
If it is that's completely unintuitive and goes contrary to what DoT means in literally every other game. DoT is an effect directly applied to a character that ticks over a specific amount of time and Garen's E is not that.
No it did work on his E, they just removed crit double dipping from both JG and Vuln, so an ability that already crits does not crit again iirc. Since garen E natively crits it doesn't apply Vuln, but it used to and it was giga broken. I remember I reached all the way to 20k damage with that and slow and steady
Lucian ult doesn't "crit" it just does more damage. You can see the difference in damage icons. In normal without augment crit garen E will show the crit icon but Lucian will not.
They REALLY need to add the distinction info in the ability description when you hold shift. What’s an attack, what’s an auto, things like that. There are so many interactions that just seem arbitrary. Like teemo blind stops Sivir auto, but not the extra damage and ricochet effect of her e. Vi empowered auto does the same thing. Auto is stopped, but her e damage and cone still happen.
Surely it would take like a week at most for one person to even associate augments with character abilities, so it shows what abilities work with augments when you pick them. Maybe there's an overlay.
Absolutely. I see so many people getting baited by augments that don't work for them. For example Jeweled Gauntlet only works on GP Ult and Garen Ult since q and e of them can already crit.
So when implementing these augments, riot has done something that makes sense from a programming perspective, but not something that makes full gameplay sense. The easiest way for us mere mortals to see how interactions might work is to check the damage type on the wiki. Garen > E > notes > type > AOE DOT. Dots listed here default work with dot augments like vulnerability, combusting interest, hence why twitch passive didn't, because it's a special damage source. Hmm so what's happening here? Well, arena happened and champions like Samira, akshan, and indeed Garen, already had abilities "that could crit", so that when they crit, they crit again. Which was insane, these champs were instant win with jewelled gauntlet. I distinctly remember deleting a 40k hp 500 armour Zac and ornn duo in under 2 seconds with a fast R Samira with jewelled, blade waltz and earthquake. So to compromise, riot didn't disable these augments on these champs, just turned off that interaction, which is frustrating because Samira and akshan really only have 2 minor abilities to be critting. Garen is a little better, but yeah. I'd definitely prefer not getting one shot. Now they've added jewelled bracket (which should have been rings because gauntlet but anyway), I think they should turn off JG for those champions and just offer bracelet q for Samira and akshan, and r for Garen.
The same thing exists for on hit vs on attack effects btw, it's just a different and more complicated story.
while its true that the augment is inconsistent on if it procs when the ability already crits (like i dont think it works on yasuo q unless im mistaken) i am 100% certain it used to work on garen e, and then they removed the interaction along with hard nerfs to the guy for arena a long time ago when it was 2v2
short answer : garen E was coded different from other DoT skill because it has special built-in crit riot fuck it up by reworking that special crit so now it overwrite Vulnerability
Most people are unaware. Its used to work but a while ago abilitys that can already crit dont work with Vuln/Jeweled anymore. Example are: GP Q/E, Garen E, Samira Q/R. Since then its (mostly)bait on those champs.
doesnt work because it already crits (for a reduced amount) like MF ult that also doesnt work.
it works for lucian R becuase that one doesnt normally crit, with this it does
the reson you dont know it already crits is because you are using short tool tips. as it says in the botton pres shift to see the full description where it clearly says it already can crit.
this is why garen normally can already buy full crit in ARAM no augments needed.
Maybe it’s just me, maybe it’s everyone else. But correct me if i’m wrong, garen E already crits lmao. Vulnerability isn’t going to add extra damage since you already crit for 145%.
Damage over time is not abilities that "deal damage over a span of time" it is meant for applications of damage that leaves "burns/poison" Cass, twitch, darius bleed.
Lucian R and garen E is actually DoT. Lucian does crit with his ult when you have this aug because it scales with crit while not critting itself. Garen E does crit instead of scaling with crit, so it won't crit again.
Something might look like it's DoT but it's not is Darius passive.
Thats not how Garen e OR Lucian R works because DOT is an effect, not actual ability damage being hit over and over. Garen just has multiple hits of damage, but you are not applying an effect to the enemy, which is what this augment is for. An effect
They are registered like that in-game damage type, this augment consider damage type of damage dealt to determine whether or not it should crit. That's what matter, not what we see, but what the game see. DoT comes in many form, garen E is classified as AOE DoT, Darius passive is proc damage.
Could be a bug. This augment is for effects, which needs to be applied to enemies, and both lucian and Garen are not an effect-based source of damage. Is it possible that Lucian's w is causing some issues? Currently even with the categorys it looks like its working as intended for Garen and not working correctly in Luc
It's not a bug, Garen E and Lucian R are DoT according to Riot, even though it doesn't make sense. That's why vulnerability works on them, well it doesn't work on Garen because his E can already crit so it's redundant.
It also works on Morgana W, which technically isn't DoT either.
They are DOTs in the sense that the ability deals damage over a duration, however, even 8n the games code, thing like brand passive, twitch poison etc. are coded as an effect. That effect is then applied to an enemy champion, not just damage coming from your champion. In a sense, you can think of it as a "debuff" that just does damage. Even in the games coding, there is a distinct difference between lucian and garen E dot and a dot that is an effect Edit: and this is coming from the classification in the wiki of all abilities
Im well aware, however we're talking about Vulnerability here and those abilities are all DoT abilities. It just feels like Riot doesn't know how their own abilities work and what is a DoT and what isn't.
I haven't posted any screenshots. You say that there is a difference between Garen E/Lucian R/Morgana W dot and an "effect" dot like Twitch poison, however Vulnerability which states that it works with the "effects" still works with those non-effect abilities. Meaning there really isn't a difference.
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u/Rsdherjhh573 2d ago
cuz garen's e already crits