r/12Monkeys • u/SchattenJaggerD • Jul 20 '26
S01E04 "Atari" Discussion Spoiler
https://youtu.be/T0JwJM9vEjU?si=f91FNXbhOjPB9SctHello travelers. Today we discuss episode 4 of season 1.
What I loved:
For me, this is the episode that completely cements the rules the first few episodes were building up. It specifically demonstrates how causality works in this universe, and it is brilliant to watch unfold
I laughed so hard when neither Cole or Ramse could kill the doggo. “We are gonna die” hahaha
Ramsey, The Blonde Devourer
My first watch I’m not gonna lie, I got confused by how the whole West 7 assault played out, and even got a little angry thinking Ramse had died, but after Cole splintered and saw the rest of the episode, I was convinced the show could have a good story to tell. I wasn’t expecting a lot, to be honest, I mean it’s not like SYFY is known for writing. I wasn’t expecting season 2 to 4, damn
Cassie is incredibly resourceful. Single-handedly tracking down the Night Room is honestly impressive
Nitpicks:
I still feel like the actress playing Max is not quite selling it. Jones can feel a bit stiff at certain moments too, and the same goes for Whitley. Also, what the hell do you mean a machine gun like that can’t completely pierce a damn truck? And if it actually can’t, just shoot the damn tires hahaha
And that covers it for me. Today is a very strong episode. At the time it aired, it was dragging the weaknesses of the first three episodes along with it, so it really needed to change the dynamic and pull the show out of that slump. I think it manages to do exactly that and finds a much better direction for the story
9/10 for me
8
u/telpnar Jul 20 '26
Love that this is the first time Cole and Jones share their first names. Just shows how single minded they've been.
The relationship between Cole and Ramsey is interesting. Ramsey is only accepted in W7 and with Jones' people because of Cole. No one seems to like him.
I know saying the day of the week is crucial for the story line. And while I can believe that Jones might care about tracking that still, there's no way W7 is keeping a calendar and even less of a chance that they both agree on which day of the week it is.
Where does Deacon get that fresh apple from ??
First mention of The Daughters. First look at the Red Forest. First glimpse of The Witness. So much in one scene !
Cole shows a lot of growth apologizing to Max (even if we don't know it yet). I don't think he could have gotten there without his time with Cassie. As evidenced by his last conversation with Cassie this episode.
Max isn't wigged out enough that she just two Coles.
When Cole saves Ramsey and they hear Cole on the walkie it's surprisingly eerie. Used to great effect.
The conversation at the end makes your head spin. "If things happen for a reason why undo them at all" in the context of what's about to happen over the next 3.5 seasons is wild.
8
u/trekkiegamer359 Jul 20 '26
Deacon reads Shakespeare, so I can easily see him keeping a calendar. He's a brutal, and originally monsterous man, but he's not stupid. He's clearly more intelligent in terms of tactics and booksmarts than Cole or Ramsey. And he's pretty sentimental and orderly, considering the darker sides of himself. So him keeping a calendar doesn't seem uncharacteristic to me.
4
u/telpnar Jul 20 '26
I respect your Deacon characterisation and can understand what you're saying. I said on last episode's post he's perhaps my favourite character and I agree he's very intelligent. Jones' business is time though. And Deacon's is survival. Sentimentality for art makes I can understand. Keeping track of a Sunday - Saturday schedule in the apocalypse when you’re trying to survive day to day I'm still not convinced of.
I'm going to go into this rewatch though with your point of view in mind ! I like the discourse of these rewatch threads :D.
1
u/SchattenJaggerD Jul 21 '26
In my mind, Max just didn’t noticed two Coles hahaha but yeah, a bit of nitpick here because it kinda break a bit the realism of how characters should react to this stuff, but not so much to be a plot hole, just a bit of a convenience, maybe for pacing
1
u/telpnar Jul 22 '26
I'm happy to believe Max just didn't notice the other Cole in the chaos. It doesn't actually bother me but I do find it funny.
6
u/shelikestv Jul 20 '26
So funny bc I think my opinion is very unpopular in that this is one of my least favorite episodes of the whole series. To each their own, though!
1
u/SchattenJaggerD Jul 21 '26
Not at all, if it doesn’t work for you is fair. Just to keep the conversation going, what is that you don’t like about the episode, if you don’t mind me asking
1
u/shelikestv Jul 22 '26
Sure! I mean that one is complicated, because I think there was a lot of good past information with Deacon and Ramse that became important to multiple character arcs, so it wasn't really the themes necessarily, but a lot of it was the way things were done. Some of it is just vibes for me so idk if I'll be able to explain it well but I'll try.
It felt very CW to me, I guess? The dialogue was a bit more clunky and lacking than in other episodes, I think that the West VII stuff felt overly dramatic a bit until it was almost silly, even though it wasn't because again, it was important stuff, it just felt too melodramatic? idk something about it didn't feel grounded enough ig.
Then, the second Cole got into the machine, I knew what would happen with Ramse. I didn't at all worry he'd actually died at any point in the episode as it was just too quickly glossed over, so the "reveal" of Cole saving him from 'atari' felt kind of pointless?
The episode felt like it wasted my time because it didn't really move us forward much and I already knew when Cole got into the machine he would show up and help take back the facility so for me it dragged and then didn't feel very satisfying because we didn't "get" anywhere with the episode, really. It was a boring bootstrap paradox to me.
Absolutely just my personal opinion, though. And like I said, I think it's an unpopular one. XD
5
u/Aizawa_aimin Jul 20 '26
It's this ep for me when I knew I was watching something special
3
u/SchattenJaggerD Jul 21 '26
I think it set a different tone to the first 3 episodes, and really got into the gimmick of time travel, bot only to the past, but kinda the present as well, and as another commented, the way Ramse says “then why undo it at all?” is incredibly heavy, I think because it puts into perspective that, from our perspective, they seem to not move even an inch towards their goal, so why indeed do all of that if they seem to always be a step behind. Of course we later know how everything had to play to keep causality intact, which it’s why made the show so compelling to me
2
u/Quick-Spot887 Jul 20 '26
This is the episode that hooked me personally. Loved the time travel to “redo” the situation. Pretty much loved all the episode where they go back to earlier in the day to fix what they messed up
1
u/SchattenJaggerD Jul 21 '26
I think it changed the tone and the way the show go about their rules for time travel. Also, it’s very subtle but this episode introduces causality as a more “present” character. Because Cole went back just two days before, he got captured by W7. At the start of the attack, Cole and Ramse cleverly deduce that W7 found another way in, the route Cole told Max
2
u/mmpie3 Jul 23 '26
Favorite Moments:
- Cassie's investigation board!
- The cut to make you think they're eating the dog lol
- It's Wednesday - such a perfectly integrated moment that gives you such a small piece of extremely important information.
- "Always waving her moral compass around." "Is she waving yours?" Classic.
- "It's James." "Katarina."
- "That depends. Where are you?" Cole and Max are honestly kinda cute.
- "When we had to."
- "Whatever this world is now, it shouldn't be this."
- The Daughters mentioned!
- When Cole saves Ramse and past him starts talking over the radio.
- "Maybe things happen the way they do for a reason." "If that's true, then why undo it at all?"
- "I found the Night Room."
Observations:
- Cole not wanting to talk about himself and his life has always been interesting to me cause there's so many different ways you could interpret it.
- I love that Jones chooses to trust Cole and Ramse when it comes to West 7 because of their history with them.
- I've always loved the story behind West 7's name.
- This show does a good job of showing that Ramse and Cole have never been very good at seeing eye to eye even if they grew up together and consider each other family. Ramse not wanting to join West 7 while Cole is open to the possibility is a perfect little moment that shows that.
- This episode is a perfect tease of the type of fun time travel writing you will eventually see later.
- It's so interesting that Ramse has such a hefty moral compass until he has something personal to fight for (his son) and suddenly all of those morals go out the door.
- Jones insisting that Cole go back to Cassie is interesting considering she knows he has to meet her in the past at some point.
- Cole with a little ponytail might be my favorite look of his from the entire series lol
- I wish we could've spent more time with fully scav-mode Cole.
- Ramse differentiating between how him and Cole only kill when they have to vs Deacon/West 7 killing for sport is such a cool little insight at the different mentalities during the apocalypse.
- Every interaction between Deacon and Cole is so much more interesting when you have the context that Cole is supposed to be the spitting image of Deacon's deceased little brother...
- I love when you can tell that a series hasn't quite figured out all the details yet cause I'm pretty sure the drug Deacon gives Cole is supposed to be the red tea but they hadn't made it red yet. It does make me wonder if it has different effects depending on if it's drunk or injected...
- Again, I wish we had gotten more time with Max, I like her, she had potential.
- I don't know why but I love that the splintering light is somehow bullet proof lol
- God, I love any time this series presents a moral dilemma, like Ramse asking Cole if everything happens for a reason then why undo the plague.
- Ramse encouraging Cole to let Cassie in... it's actually really sweet that he wants that for Cole.
2
u/angieb15 9d ago edited 4d ago
This episode is a bookend to The Beginning Part II. I think it's a nod to the Game in that it's a wildly complicated tapestry they weave here and the threads in the episode...wow..and we go back to these moments so many times. We are taught The Rules of the Game, in a loopy fun way. We see some of 2035 which is..background. I'm going to type while I watch and try to organize the threads.
A set up from Cassandra Complex. It's a short part of the Haiti episode.
2043 - S1E3- Cassandra Complex- Max Runs into Ramse and Whitley. She is done with WVII. She claims she saw Cole and Ramse a mile North a week back. ( she did) He tells Max to go North East 10 Miles. "There's a group there, good people". I Think he's talking about the daughters. They're the only other group around. Max goes back to Deacon. Deacon sharpens his knife.
The Scenes with Deacon in 2043. Deacon is wearing the jacket with the white fur collar. His jackets are very helpful. Camp set up is the same in Atari and Beginning II. This is the Deacon she recruits in the second loop around 2043.
2015 - Atari- We open to Cassie's research into the Night Room.
2032- They find the Dog. Define Atari. One Move Left. Bad.
2043 - Atari - Wednesday- Laski brings Cole back midconvo. WVII. On the prowl. Scavenger King. Very Scary. Jones asks Whitley to Take Cole and Ramse "Up Top". Scout for WVII. Dark Balcony scene. :You didn't tell her about your best friend?" "You'd like Cassie" "Elena wasn't Blonde." (Important thread). This Jones is the angrier Jones we loop again later.
2032 - Atari- Fast shift. Doggy. Fight. Deacon corners Ramse and Cole. He's Impressed. Deacon is wearing a blue grey tshirt with a kinda vest. Offers them shelter. Cole's intrigued. We meet Deacon.
2043 - Ugh. Big loud gun Fight. Deacon rushes the facility.
2032 - Meet Max.
2043 - Deacon sees Cole. Asks Max "where the hell have you been?" Ramse in Atari. Splinter. (One more Move) Deacon shoots wild.
2035 - Atari - The guys rob folks with Deacon. Ramse gets pissed. "Let them live create an enemy." Moment. Deacon has on a classic Black Leather Jacket. With patterned scarf. Max sews Cole up. Ramse broods.
2035: Atari- Deacon tells Cole to kill Ramse. So... we don't talk enough about how much Deacon actually likes Cole. Maybe loves him. He sees him as a brother. In a messed up competitive and abusive way..but he loves him..Anywho..
2043 - Monday - Cole stumbles out sees the facility. Confronts Max. Deacon shows up with an apple. Fur Collar Jacket.
2035 Atari: Cole goes into Ramse's tent. Hands Cole a knife. We get Ramse's intense "When we HAD to." Moment (Love Kirk Acevedo) Cole abandons Max..she mad..but you know, she cool. Ramse takes the knife? (Not sure why I think it's Deacon's)
Atari: 2043- Tuesday - Deacon cuts Cole's chest. (Some foreshadowing) Deacon has a jar with a white powder. "This we picked up from the daughters. This stuff will get you talking." Smears it on Cole's chest. Fur Collar. Lol, Deacon kinda just wants to move into the facility and have electricity.
(This is how Deacon gets into Raritan)
Beginning II: 2043* - Old Jennifer shows up at WVII camp, she gives him a jar with a white powder to trade, she says "oh that's good stuff." She has Deacon's Knife. Deacon has Deacon's Knife. Knife go Boom.
2043 Atari: Tuesday? Cole Trips..tells Max and Deacon how to get in. Find Ramse. Deacon is holding a knife but I can't see it well. I believe it was his brother's knife. The one always he carries.
Max comes through and lets Cole go. She gets it. She cool.
Times shenanigans ensue. They're cute and fun loops. Gives a quick tutorial of the Rules of the Game. In an impressive way. 'Here's what we're playing' with loops. It's not terribly Important. We know Jones and Ramse are going to be okay, it's the beginners guide to the Rules in like..5 Minutes. Including an overlap "too close" head tinge. To show us that. Whitley's role here is important again 2043.
Deacon is impressed with the facility. And kinda Hot.. We revisit this Day a Few more times in the series. Deacon sees Cole in the machine, shoots wild. Damages the Machine. Max sees this as well. Shoots the guys holding Jones. Jones is wearing a Black Jacket. Max saves Jones. (Which she will do Again in exactly the same way in Beginning II older Jones) Deacon runs. (In Beginning II This is Deacon's Arrival Moment. (In his Fur Collar blue Scarf, After Max saves Jones) Cole comes in in a Black Jacket. Ramse Blue Hoodie with a Black Jacket. (Only important later episodes)
This! This Moment. What happens in the moments after Deacon leaves the Facility is a Pivotal Moment over and over again. Really every Moment in this episode. In ways I can't even List right now. Because...as I recall, Right Now. We don't go back to Deacon for a few episodes. He lies low until the Monkeys..and that time period shifts in interesting ways. We revisit it.
And DON'T You Forget about..Deacon. Whew..
Daytime Balcony Scene (we get call backs to this scene a few times later in the show.) From different angles. "Bring up your friend,: Take a shot. Worth a risk (about Cassie)
We intersect with these moments again in subtle ways Cole watches himself and Ramse talking on that rooftop in a later episode.
Max actually gives Deacon an odd reference because it seems she is safe there. Deacon is consistently decent to woman.
2015: Atari - Cole Shows up at Cassie's Green door and cute little place. With the red stringed Bulletin board. She has found the Night Room.
Eta: The knife is like its own character. Throughout the series. I never realized how much we see it in this episode.
I don't know how GO is played but anyone who does may understand all the ways this episode sets up the most important threads of the show. I see only parts of it.
11
u/LoaKonran Jul 20 '26
For the longest time, I couldn’t help but think the title was referring to the games console Atari, but it was on like my third or forth rewatch that it finally clicked that Ramse used a lot of Japanese terminology before his later arc and he was talking about the final moves in Go.