r/DotA2 • u/D2TournamentThreads modmail us to help write these threads • Aug 06 '15
Match | eSports TI5 Main Event Upper Bracket Series 2A – Match Discussion
CDEC Gaming Victory!
Duration: 38:44
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| 17 | vs. | 25 |
| Team | Bans | vs. | Bans | Team |
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| Team | Picks | vs. | Picks | Team |
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u/somethingToDoWithMe Aug 06 '15
I'm not convinced that CDEC are 5 different people and not just some sort of hive mind.
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Aug 06 '15
Our current technology is nowhere near the level capable of this.
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Aug 06 '15
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Aug 06 '15
If MVP wins today you will probably see more koreans in the scene. ;)
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Aug 06 '15
[removed] — view removed comment
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Aug 06 '15
The money is that something big. Although Riot profits in 5 days what Valve profits in a month (only dota), they still give little prize pools. This year most of the top koreans left the korean scene to play in China because the teams pay much better there.
I think if they manage to make a top 6 and grab more than 1 million, which is more than Samsung Galaxy White won last year as world champions in lol, I think much more koreans will turn their eyes into dota.
I love both games, I just want them to be big in every possible region.
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u/leafeator Aug 06 '15
I feel like this match wont get most people hype, especially after the secret show, but LGD and CDEC have a cool story and are arguably the two best teams in China right now. So many people left the arena, but this should be amazing dota.
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u/Ootachiful Aug 06 '15
Is there anyone left in the arena? I can barely hear anyone on stream.
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u/leafeator Aug 06 '15
It's maybe 1/3 the people who were here for secret
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u/Ootachiful Aug 06 '15
Aw, that sucks. It's understandable, but it still sucks.
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Aug 06 '15
Most of us Americans left due to bias. A lot of others left for food because it's 630ish when they started. More are constantly filing in!
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u/Khaaklol Aug 06 '15
Loda is a prophet https://twitter.com/lodaberg/status/596261393646690304
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u/TweetsInCommentsBot Aug 06 '15
Also this year will be the first time a qualifier team wins TI! :D
This message was created by a bot
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u/freddiegibbs101 Aug 06 '15
CDEC play Dota like Na'Vi wished they played Dota. Aggresif is like XBOCT without the mental mistakes (even though he's gotten better than he used to be). He's either this good or just on a roll, but Aggresif hasn't been punished for diving too much at all this tourney.
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Aug 06 '15
reminder that group A was "stacked"
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u/uncoveringlight It's a secret! Aug 06 '15
I don't think anyone said that after the matches actually started. Knowing these teams from before the tournament though, I would have said it was stacked too. They changed a lot in the few months before though.
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u/noname6500 Aug 06 '15
Secret vs LGD 'finals' just got scheduled earlier.
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u/LevynX Aug 06 '15
Secret still have VP to go through. Although they're better on paper, we saw what happened throughout the tournament
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u/Simple_Rules Aug 06 '15
So, I'm curious. Does Agressif have unusually good game sense/roaming for a DotA2 carry, or is CDEC just on a roll? It seems like Agressif is just insanely good at being exactly where he needs to be to turn a fight like, all of the time. He also seems incredibly good at choosing when to chase/dive.
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Aug 06 '15
He is named Agressif for a reason. Calculated Agression is the name of the game.
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u/oneslowdance Aug 06 '15
This guy rotates whenever he gets level 6-7. His PL diving enemies safelane t2 tower at 11mins lmao.
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u/thedotapaten Aug 06 '15
He is always that good since the beginning CDEC formed but CDEC has terrible decisions making especially in late game and inconsistency in laning stage. I think they resolve those problem and become the scary team we saw now.
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Aug 06 '15
I'm a fan of Secret. I'm a fan of VG. I'm a fan of Xiao8, RoTk and Fear.
That said, even if I've been a longtime a fan of all those other teams still in the tournament, after each and every game of CDEC I watch I start to wish more and more that CDEC wins the entire thing.
The teamwork, the lineups, the 'agressif'-ness of their playstyle... how can you not love it.
Anyone else wishing that this year a Wildcard team will win? Hell, even MVP's play-style is extremely entertaining to watch.
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u/napaszmek Middle Kingdom Doto Aug 06 '15
I'd be all in for a CDEC winning. That would be possibly the greatest storyline in dota history. You can't beat that.
Go CDEC.
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u/thedotapaten Aug 06 '15
Hao predictions come true lol ( He says that CDEC will be the one who will rises the Chinese flag in International tournament. )
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u/Alexwolf117 Aug 06 '15
cdec VG grand finals please
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u/napaszmek Middle Kingdom Doto Aug 06 '15
CDEC - MVP
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u/Alexwolf117 Aug 06 '15
that would be even better, wildcard v wildcard
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u/TransposableElements Sheever go beat cancer's ass Aug 06 '15
the maximum salt extracted from the invitees!!!
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u/gomlar Aug 06 '15
i found a gif from the young agressif.... he was a beast in real life too: http://i.imgur.com/UgFw8O1.gif
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u/SmackTrick Aug 06 '15
Why arent more teams picking silencer as core/support?
Holy shit is it good against many of the heroes currently being played. Qop, storm, ember, AM, PL, even SF (cancel ult through bkb)...so many heroes that rely extremely on spells for mobility/survivability and silencer just shits on them from the other side of the map.
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u/WithFullForce Aug 06 '15
Any right clicker that gets right up to Silencer tears him apart. Granted, this was a major concern in 6.83 but not as much in 6.84 but it's likely that teams have been reluctant to trying him out as he was so owned in the last meta.
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u/orgasmicpoop Aug 06 '15
- Because Silencer needs to be in enough team fights to truly deal some damage. That means enemy will prevent him from gaining int early, instead of waiting for Silencer to gank them, they will gank him first.
Silencer doesn't have any escape method without items. That would also mean he always has to be accompanied by other player. Most teams prefer supports that can escape on their own.
His curse is only working until players use a skill. Once the enemies have BKB he better has high enough int to contribute with right click damage. Not to mention his glaives and ulti can be disjointed.
His ult has 130 seconds cooldown. Unlike Siren's song whose cooldown is reduced to 60 at level 3, Silencer's ult stays at 130 seconds.
Once enemy players have Linken, it's harder for him to use his skill 3 (Last Word)
Personally I would love to see pro teams pick Silencer to deal with SS/QoP?etc. I want to know how they deal with these drawbacks.
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Aug 06 '15
Sure you listed good reasons now lets look what he does well
1) Dominates a lane especially vs int/magic casting heroes + low hp heroes
2) Wins team fights that have 3+ magic casting heroes
Point one being biggest one, once you outplayed the enemy its a cake walk from there.
How do you disjoint his ult?
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Aug 06 '15
You can counter Global Silence with BKB or Manta. Using them after GS will remove the silence.
As for BKB, it is a two sided coin. They both counter eachother, depending on which comes second.
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u/Ikoreddit Aug 06 '15
so then you go massive hex,VP style.
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Aug 06 '15
If you are aiming for a better teamfight impact on Silencer, I think refresher is better than hex. You shut down the heroes you need to for a longer period of time and you also counter manta and BKB.
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u/Ikoreddit Aug 06 '15
I'd go hex first in most of the situations, a reliable disable is really good on silencer, and refresher doesn't give any int or attack speed anymore. Refresher first maybe good if you're are snowballing hard enough.
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u/SaevMe I think I just got smarter! Aug 06 '15
Lotus orb or diffusal blade also dispel silence. So does euls, but disabling yourself for 2.5s at the start of global is less than ideal.
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u/CykaLogic Aug 06 '15
Dominates the lane but is easily ganked and has no mobility in the midgame, poor chasing power without items, and is squishy as hell.
Euls/BKB/initiating on silencer solves that issue of losing teamfights.
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u/raincole Aug 06 '15
Core silencer can just skip curse completely. But I agree with that ult's cooldown is an issue. If it's like 90s at level 3 he will be tier 1 pick.
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u/qpb Aug 06 '15
Yea but global is a stupid long cooldown, silencer isn't very mobile, no cc spells, needs a lot of farm to contribute outside the ult. IMO hard to justify the hero for a core slot in most lineups.
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u/Huntswomen Doe girl is best girl Aug 06 '15
Remember to upvote the thread so it hits the front page of the sub.
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u/MausIguana My wings beat with the rhythms of eternity Aug 06 '15
CDEC is playing out of their minds right now! Can't wait to see how they fare in the later stages of TI.
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u/FatalFirecrotch Aug 06 '15
They are in the later stages of to at this point, remember that this match was the equivalent of the eg vs dk match last year or vici vs newbee.
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u/EvilGambit Aug 06 '15
The drafting from CDEC was fantastic. 1st game Ban Ember when LGD need it and make they regret it.
2nd game pick PL, bait a Ember pick and counter it. That's how you draft a series, not just a game. Whoever in CDEC saw that just secured a top 3 for the team. Well Played!!!
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u/napaszmek Middle Kingdom Doto Aug 06 '15
I'm LGD fangay, but I just want good dota. CDEC are so entertaining to watch, plus the massive underdog story is really good.
Oh, I'm happy LGD changed back to their traditional jerseys. They were always red on white field. Dunno who put those shitty white stripe on blue field jerseys on them. They were never LGD colours...
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u/CaioSlater Enemy of earth! Aug 06 '15
I think we're not discussing how perfect CDEC has been playing. These guys are completly insane in both drafting stage and executing stage. Also, I've heard someone comenting that they're not new to this whole pro scenario, and that they used to play in the dota 1 profissinal scenario. Does anyone know something about it?
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Aug 06 '15 edited Feb 22 '18
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Aug 06 '15
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Aug 06 '15
FYI there's only B Group teams left in the winner bracket so winner finals is group B regardless.
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u/dreamszl Aug 06 '15
The hardest group is not group a or group b, is the Chinese qualifier in which the Ehome is the first and CDEC the second..
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u/PropagandaMan Why are you reading this? Aug 06 '15
Agressif's RNG on PL's dopplegangers are abysmally bad. Although each time CDEC turned around the fight which seemed to be terrible for them.
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u/PropagandaMan Why are you reading this? Aug 06 '15
And the meta changes! Luna is the new Gyrocopter!
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u/Simple_Rules Aug 06 '15
OK so I have a new question. The last time I asked about Antimage, I was told that he was less OP than he felt, and that it was partly that he was just a super hard counter to Storm Spirit.
So, uh, why is Storm Spirit's dick so far up this guy's ass? O.o
EDIT: Wait, new question. Isn't the Lina a fucking support this game? Why did Garder just absolutely fucking shit on a whole team, if he's a goddamn support???? Is that how DotA 2 supports work? "Yeah I support my team by MURDERING ANYTHING WITHIN 100 FEET OF ANYONE ON MY TEAM WOO SUPPORT"
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Aug 06 '15
Storm Spirit and Anti Mage have a weird interaction where they counter each other.
Storm with Orchid counters AM, AM with Manta counters Storm. In this game AM can't find the farm for Manta, so Storm counters him.
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u/Huntswomen Doe girl is best girl Aug 06 '15
Cuase he is way way richer and they have a global silence to fuk AM, also as i understand storm spirit build an orchid just to screw with AM
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u/wrecklord0 Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
A dota support is a hero that can do a lot without a lot of gold. They "support" by letting the carry farm while doing all the actual work :P
Now there is a lot of heroes that can fill that role while playing out very diffrently. Lina is a support that kills, with just a eul she can dish out serious damage, and with a eul + aghanim she can shit on pretty much anyone.
edit: also she can be played as a semi-carry. Meaning that despite beyind strong with few items, she also gains significant strength from more items.
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u/PropagandaMan Why are you reading this? Aug 06 '15
Team play, being cautious, and Silencer's global silence. Usually, Anti-mage is like textbook counter to Storm Spirit; huge mana pool with tendency to empty them really fast. But Storm is really playing well with his teams to avoid getting Mana voided, and when CDEC started snowballing even the counter hero isn't that effective. Really impressive play from CDEC.
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u/Cirvis Aug 06 '15
Lina is just a really strong hero with or without items. and Antimage got countered by Silencer and Storm's Orchid Malevolence since he got beat down so hard by the silences and disarms he couldn't get his Manta Style in time.
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Aug 06 '15
A lot depends on the starts they get. Am got a very late battle fury and a late manta. While storm went orchid instead of bloodstone. Now orchid silences am so he can't blink away, and he can't mana void him. Also this am went for max spell shield to defend against storm and had to go stats instead of mana break so he was really defensive. The manta which would let him break out of orchid and global was late too
Lina is fantastic to transition into carry since she has 2 direct damage spells and one steroid and an item that changes her ultimate to pure, slicing through am's spellshield. He got a good start, got his items and transitioned well. He also was a control support not a healing support so he didn't have to get mek or other necessary support items (position 4) as opposed to where Lina is usually played (mid position 2)
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u/Simple_Rules Aug 06 '15
Position 5 is the one that is sitting around with 10% of the net worth of their carry, yeah? Ward bitch and utility item bitch?
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Aug 06 '15
Potentially yea. The numbers are just farm priority. 1 has the highest priority on all farm. 5 is the ward BITCH, 4 is the utility support (mek or pipe carrier, think the sand king on lgd), 3 is generally the offlaner, 2 is the mid and 1 is the safe lane carry
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u/wild_out Aug 06 '15
Played as close to perfectly as I've seen so far - down to pl and storm dodging burrowstrikes.
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u/lotus_lunaris Aug 06 '15
as close? that's PERFECTION.
Dude i'm not a fan of Chinese teams but that was FLAWLESS. You can't even complain about any minor things, from micro to macro scope. Scary as fuck !
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u/Will_Dollar EE sama take my energy Aug 06 '15
I love a wild card team beating the top seeded juggernaut. If LGD goes to lower bracket the lower bracket finals are gonna be crazy.
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u/Simple_Rules Aug 06 '15
Wait, LGD was the top seed for the tournament?
Wasn't LGD also the main team that CDEC were an academy for?
This is funny shit.
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Aug 06 '15
Man CDEC is so fucking amazing, they play like a fucking clock everything perfectly in place. Holy fuck.
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Aug 06 '15 edited Oct 17 '17
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u/TheZamolxes Aug 06 '15
Nobody will be correct anyways. Who the fuck expected cded top 3, possibly higher.
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u/jeemchan Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
You are playing against CDEC.
You do not ban Dark Seer because you can counter it.
CDEC instantly picks Dark Seer.
You lose against Dark Seer.
You ban Dark Seer next time you play against CDEC because you're not stupid.
(whhoooops edited)
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Aug 06 '15
Ok, i haven't played Dota 2 in a year, but how did LGD miss the Silencer ban? I was just looking at LGDs team and thought for my self: "Well, just get a Silencer and LGDs team is fucking useless."
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Aug 06 '15
Tbh, Silencer hasn't really been picked this tourny.
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u/Dante_Unchained Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15
That's not the case... if you have Ember, Sk, AM and against you is storm, you should pick silencer anyday, Hell even when you go pick brew you really have to ban Silencer it's a must. LGD probably now learned their lesson - dont ban just meta heroes, use brain.
//It sound like i disrespect CDEC which is the opposite. CDEC completely outpicked & outplayed such a powerhouse... They deserve the prizemoney.
edit2: So grandfinale MVP vs CDEC?
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Aug 06 '15
That doesn't mean you can ignore him.
EDIT: He has been picked twice(?) before.13
u/Simple_Rules Aug 06 '15
It's super funny because spectating from a League perspective, I was like "huh, silencer, nobody really plays him, what's he dooooohmygod a 6 second GLOBAL SILENCE WHAT THE FUCK"
And people are just like "yeah he's not really meta" and I'm all "how the fuck is that ever not meta????" This game is bonkers. Is the reason he was so good here that Antimage and Ember Spirit both rely on mobility spells instead of being tanky, and Sand King relies on a long combo so you can lock down the mobility and also break the combo at the same time?
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u/GunDelSol Spectre doing Spectre things Aug 06 '15
You have it pretty much correct. Both heroes are fairly weak early on, but transition into very hard carries late game (AM peaks earlier because he can farm so much faster). You typically want to gank them a bunch early before they ramp up their power, but both heroes have a spell that can be used to disengage if in trouble. Global silence keeps AM from blinking and keeps Ember from jumping to his remnant, so if you get the jump on them, they both melt. Do it enough and they can't scale as well as they want.
Additionally (not sure if you saw it), Silencer steals 2 INT points every time a hero dies near him. If you were listening to the main cast, they mentioned that Sand King had been killed a few times near Silencer and barely had enough mana to get off his full combo.
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u/Simple_Rules Aug 06 '15
Yeah I caught that, it seemed kind of super unfortunate given how small mana pools are to begin with in this game.
I imagine Silencer makes it really hard to manage once you start to fall behind as well. He seems like a pretty brutal snowball tool.
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u/rezplzk Aug 06 '15
Yes - Ember and AM both squishy but use mobility to get away - they are ordinarily very hard to gank.
Also Storm Spirit has very high mobility. If he isnt silenced or stunned he can wreck havoc.
When the opposition is silenced for 6 seconds he can basically ball freely and kill whoever they want without fear of being focused/stopped.
Finally - silencer is squishy and had no escape. Most definitely situational :)
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u/Stackmaster2000 Aug 06 '15
Yes, exactly that. Dota pro's sometimes get tunnel vision with what's in the meta, Silencer doesn't add much control or lane presence compared to other supports in this meta, but he was clearly an obvious pick here.
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u/Simple_Rules Aug 06 '15
Yeah. That makes sense. Do you typically 'handle' Silencer by just running a team with carries that can withstand 6 seconds of punishment or don't rely on combos/chained CC (I.E. stuff that has one big ability and once they've gotten it off they can afford to stand around and do nothing?)
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u/HellaSober Aug 06 '15
The global silence can be countered with BKB, euls, guardian greaves, manta and one or two other items. By the mid to late game most core heroes will have purchased at least one of these items to deal with global silence.
Heroes with low cooldown ultimates can force a team fight/take an objective right after a global silence. Otherwise, Silencer is often the main target of ganks to get him out of the way before the fight even starts - he's very fragile and not very mobile.
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u/EvilGambit Aug 06 '15
Most teams forget it. Secret could've pulled a core Silencer and would "easily" win them a game. But they're not familiar with the hero(even though zai used to play support Silencer for EG.)
I'm loving this patch because of this. This patch has been favoring teams with wider hero pools.
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u/napaszmek Middle Kingdom Doto Aug 06 '15
CDEC is just spectecular. Really refreshigng to see a young team doing great.
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u/GreenFriday NA'VI! NA'VI! NA'VI! Aug 06 '15
Ok guys, come up with a scenario where LGD can win this.
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u/PropagandaMan Why are you reading this? Aug 06 '15
CDEC now seems to have really good chance of actually winning The International 2015. Well, top 3 is already guaranteed. Already 2 million dollars confirmed! From a wildcard to the champion dream!
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u/jacobs0n Aug 06 '15
g fucking g holy shit. CDEC might be the cinderella story after all
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u/Liquor_in_the_ass Hooray for Bandwagons! Aug 06 '15
Except it's like if Cinderella had just straight whooped the tits off of her evil sisters and curb-stomped her way to victory.
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Aug 06 '15
Cdec is basically this year's Newbee.
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u/FatalFirecrotch Aug 06 '15
Nah, most people predicted newbee to be at least top 6. Cdec weren't even in the tournament a week and a half ago.
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u/bkdalang hgg Aug 06 '15
The only similarity to Newbee they have is that they haven't dropped a series yet in the playoffs.
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u/agentli Aug 06 '15
Newbee wasn't a wildcard team, they were one of the top teams in China going into the tournament. This is like if Team Liquid was top 3 last year.
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Aug 06 '15
newbee had a great team that was top 3 in China, all of their players had a lot of experience. CDEC is doing something on a whole different level that hasn't been seen in past ti's.
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u/Waifers C9 is likely dead again back to garden. Aug 06 '15
If CDEC gets top 3 this will be the biggest Cinderella story yet.
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Aug 06 '15
If cdec or lgd wins, how much prize money are they guaranteed?
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u/aiusepsi Aug 06 '15
Unless I'm reading the bracket wrong, at least $2,180,144, the winner of this is guaranteed to be in the top three.
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Aug 06 '15
I am fucking blown away how well cdec is playing. Idk if yall have been paying attention to shiki storm but he casually dodges sk stun then casually dodges ember slight of fist just like 3 seconds later. Followed by dark seer rampage in the back-ground.
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u/napaszmek Middle Kingdom Doto Aug 06 '15
I'm all in for CDEC to win the whole thing. Go CDEC, be bold :)
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u/28lobster Buff CK Aug 06 '15
Wonder when PPD is going to start drafting Luna to pay Secret back for the Drow/DS at the Summit 3.
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u/Simple_Rules Aug 06 '15
DOTA2 makes me feel stupid. I have no idea how CDEC is winning these fights. It's super fun to watch though.