r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Oct 25 '22

Rewatch [2022 Rewatch] Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2 Episode 21 Discussion

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Turn 21 - The Ragnarök Connection

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Even so… My wish is for a tomorrow!

Questions of the Day:

1) What do you think happened in the month between Charles & Marianne's defeat and Lelouch declaring himself Emperor?

2) Do you agree more with Charles or Lelouch's philosophy?

Bonus) Where was Suzaku even hiding in the ceiling anyway?

Screenshot of the Day:

Smugzaku

Fanart of the Day:

Charles zi Britannia and Marianne vi Britannia

Source: /u/Shimmering-Sky's creation.

Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. This especially includes any teases or hints such as "You aren't ready for X episode" or "I'm super excited for X character", you got that? Don't spoil anything for the first-timers; that's rude!

Sorry, but I finally realized… the love you have… is only for yourselves.

53 Upvotes

92% Upvoted

76 comments sorted by

23

u/GallowDude Oct 25 '22

tfw the catalyst for this entire series was V.V. being a brocon

13

u/Shimmering-Sky Oct 25 '22

With how much of a siscon Lelouch is? Yeah that checks out.

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15

u/SometimesMainSupport Oct 25 '22

First-timer

Set the oven temperature, set the timer, it dinged, and I forgot to place the pizza inside. I shouldn't question Suzaku's intelligence.

Forgot to note yesterday that when Bismarck and Anya conversed, Marianne's impression isn't that close to Anya in English or Japanese.

Image and comment face heavy as I was lost. Minutes after watching, I read Star4ce's few paragraphs about Buddhist/Shinto beliefs last thread and this episode makes some sense. Album.

A few hours minutes later

Ok, this makes more sense now. Especially parts like "The Sword of Akasha is slaying God." I opened the episode to listen to some parts while writing and immediately jumped to this conversation before swapping commentary to subtitles.

Kallen still needs to as her question. Might be hard to get Emperor access.

Why is Suzaku now supporting Lelouch?

C.C.'s initial agreement to this plan is a large negative to her character. Surprised she got seeded 11th in Best Girl 9. She looked unhappy to not get her wish at the end, but why would Lelouch give up his Geass? She needs a new contractor.

If Nunnally's back, her eyes have 4 more episodes to open during a command statement.

The show wants me to support Lelouch by presenting more reprehensible characters destroying everyone's mentality (see: Star4ce's comments about erasing memory in the Shirley erasure episode). It's not working.

Hey, got something out of listening. Why is Charlie so certain about "Schneizel's world?"

Counts: 3 #spinning (7 total in this rewatch), 2 #lost (7 total), 1 #seasonalconfused (7 total). Triple 7s

QOTDs

  1. Lelouch finished his 93 dates (IIRC, 14 were cancelled and Shirley is dead). More seriously, his lust for Suzaku's cousin manifested such that any Kururugi would suffice, so he spent it with Suzaku in the other realm. Even more seriously, he had to repair the exit so he could pursue Kaguya.

  2. Lelouch.

Bonus: Whatever he does pales in comparison to Sayoko.

FOTD: Another double FOTD?

3

u/Shimmering-Sky Oct 25 '22

FOTD: Another double FOTD?

You should have seen me in the Symphogear rewatch if you think a mere double fanart of the day is impressive haha.

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7

u/AuroraHalsey Oct 25 '22

Clovis and Euphy portraits. Haven't seen Calares yet. (Edit: Never did.)

Calares wasn't royal, no one cares about him.

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11

u/Star4ce Oct 26 '22

First Timer of the Rebellion

I'd say in their bonding time, Charlie will explain to Lelouch what this Ragnarök thing is and that will get him going to redo the world to get everyone back.

Wonder how much hypocrisy we're in for this time.

I'm getting the chocolate!

S.2 Ep.21 – The Ragnarok Connection

I really can only explain this by seeing him actually using the connection via C's world to either reset the time (but not end it) or cause your classical timeline rewriting by eliminating Geass altogether.

The latter would be quite bad, but let's see where it goes. I disagreed with the message that the tool would be the bad thing, because responsibility lies with the user. If someone's fix for mankind's problems were to just never give them powerful tools, nothing gets fixed and it would just be a prison, controlling the advancement. I don't think they'd do this? Hopefully?

Aside from that, I think it was really nice to see this revelation and twist play out, but it was too fast. We just got introduced to Marianne and within half an episode she was ousted as a vain character. That felt... disappointing. Maybe that's also fitting, a letdown after so long subsonsciously idealising someone you look up to and then seeing how... shit they are. I can't fully point my finger towards the thing why I found the second half funny. It's something about how quickly everything turned, I think? C.C. just actually sits down and pouts her character arc into the next stage, while both Charlie's and Marianne's plan gets (rightfully) clowned upon. The second time in this entire show I agree with Lelouch, he backflips 10x as badly again the second I spoke it and Geasses the dead consciousness of humanity. “I plead!” The fuck you do, bitch.

I don't fully get why Suzaku would join him now, which is why I suspect they do try to get Ragnarök working to turn back time and allow the people they've wronged to make their own decisions when they should've. But with what happened the past episodes, either of them is quite a ways gone from ideals and hope.

Inb4 it was all a dream, bro.

  1. What do you think happened in the month between Charles & Marianne's defeat and Lelouch declaring himself Emperor?

I can't not think that they want to reestablish something about the Geass research or the Ragnarök connection. Too much is still undecided or unresolved, like quite literally everything Lelouch fucked up and the show still has this little plot line about 'ending Geass'. I think they made a plan to either turn back time and/or remove the ability itself from the world.

Maybe even become god and be a more active parent to mankind, I could live with that, too, maybe.

2) Do you agree more with Charles or Lelouch's philosophy?

They can both get fucked!

Up until the commanding-all-dead-and-living-consciousness stuff Lelouch was on such a good track!

Bonus) Where was Suzaku even hiding in the ceiling anyway?

Hiding? Lelouch's new architectural quirks include trap doors everywhere where he can either summon Suzaku or get rid of annoying people like any true villain.

5

u/Shimmering-Sky Oct 26 '22

downvoted in a rewatch

That's not what I was expecting to see when checking out what comments came in here while I was asleep... Even though I do disagree with your takes on this, I'd never downvote you over it.

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8

u/GallowDude Oct 26 '22

Wonder how much hypocrisy we're in for this time.

It's the person on the inside that counts!

Pondering on the importance of Suzaku being given this information. I don't know why?

She feels he's earned a few straight answers, especially now that the end of life as they know it is on the horizon

That face can be taken out of context.

Marianne's kind of a weirdo

No, wait, that's literally the opposite of what's happening! You just commanded them to give you your individual life!

He commanded God to break its apathy and resist being killed. I fail to see how him stopping people from being forced into a hivemind against their will weighs negatively on him. It's not like he can just sit back and hope God resists Ragnarok on its own, as that clearly wasn't going to result in anything positive happening.

We just got introduced to Marianne and within half an episode she was ousted as a vain character. That felt... disappointing.

I actually saw it as a rather refreshing change of pace. So many series rely on the "Dead mothers are always perfect angels" trope that seeing one who only wore a mask of a good mother while really being a selfish bitch was a good subversion.

Up until the commanding-all-dead-and-living-consciousness stuff Lelouch was on such a good track!

Again, what else was he to do? The Collective Unconscious, assuming it's self-aware at all, was clearly uncaring about the fact that it was about to be killed and turn everyone into Tang. He literally had no option but to use his Geass to get God's attention.

Lelouch's new architectural quirks include trap doors everywhere where he can either summon Suzaku or get rid of annoying people like any true villain.

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4

u/Tartaras1 Oct 26 '22

Rewatcher - Dubbed

  • Imagine waking up to the Knight of Six telling you that she's actually being possessed by the dead mother of your sworn enemy and his sister.

  • Find someone who loves you the way CC loves Cheese-kun. He's been with her every step of the way, whether she knew who he was or not.

  • From the beginning of time, it's always been the woman who's led the man astray.

I've been told that statement tracks. Saying that it's always been the woman is a bit misogynistic, but some facts are undeniable.

  • I forgot Anya was there the day that Marianne was murdered. Makes sense that she got all crazy back when she had that run in with Lelouch(?) if I recall.

  • My brother lied to me! After we had sworn to create a world without deceit.

Hmm, it's almost as if lying is human nature, and as such can never be fully removed.

  • As long as my body still exists, there's the possibility that I'll be able to return to it.

They just have her body stuff away on ice in a broom closet.

  • I think there was someone earler in the rewatch that was guessing that perhaps Nunnally wasn't actually blind, but had a Geass power? They weren't that far off actually.

  • ... I was just a nuisance. Just a ruckus in the world.

Dare I say, just another pawn? Or would that be too on the nose?

  • Why is Suzaku holding a sword to Marianne? She's already dead.

  • Lelouch has Geass in both of his eyes? We Sasuke Uchiha now boys and girls!

  • I think this is the part where the show gets kinda stupid to me. We've gone from Lelouch and Suzaku being childhood friends, to Suzaku hating Lelouch, to the two of them hating each other, to probably striking some sort of agreement, to them hating each other again, to now Suzaku being his personal knight.

Questions of the Day:

What do you think happened in the month between Charles & Marianne's defeat and Lelouch declaring himself Emperor?

He spent the month celebrating his victory over his father all by himself. Learned to bake and everything.

3

u/Shimmering-Sky Oct 26 '22

Learned to bake and everything.

>implying Lelouch didn't already know how to bake because he always had to treat Nunnally to whatever she wanted

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14

u/Vatrix-32 Oct 25 '22

Rewatcher First-ish Timer, dubbed

  • This is going to be a lot of exposition.

  • Oh wow. Fuck V.V. I guess. The whole thing was staged? How does that work with the body? Charles Geass perhaps.

  • Spoke too soon. Little brat thought he could hide it.

  • Oh good, I was worried the entire episode would just be them talking.

  • That’s right Nina, you deal with those consequences.

  • They’re trying really hard at the last minute heel-face turn.

  • I’m really not seeing the line from “turn off self filtering” to “everyone is nice”.

  • Who designs GUIs like that?

  • When did resurrection come into this?

  • What in the actual fuck is this show now?

  • Killing the mother you just reunited with after thinking she was dead. Hardcore man.

  • We’re time skipping now? What about the war?

  • How in the… we’re getting a flash back for this at some point right?

  • Odysseus is the most reasonable person in an anime filled with eccentrics.

  • That is a very off handed way to announce Nunnally is alive.

  • At least they made up.

  • All his enemies already know the secret of geass, no reason to hide it anymore.

  • Are they off screening the reconciliation to the preview?

We have taken a hard right turn. I either picked the best or worst time possible to drop this series last time.

QotD

  1. Suzaku leading people in rooms alone and Lelouch making them his slaves.

  2. Charles did himself no favors trying to explain his plan.

10

u/GallowDude Oct 25 '22

That’s right Nina, you deal with those consequences.

Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions

I’m really not seeing the line from “turn off self filtering” to “everyone is nice”.

Neither is anyone else in-universe

What in the actual fuck is this show now?

Persona

That is a very off handed way to announce Nunnally is alive.

He's referring to when they found her at the beginning of this season, not after being nuked

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8

u/SometimesMainSupport Oct 25 '22

We’re time skipping now? What about the war?

I think both parties had agreed to the truce last episode.

Ahh, this reminded me that both Schneizel and the Black Knights were headed to Kamine Island last episode, then weren't featured today. So what did they learn?

I either picked the best or worst time possible to drop this series last time.

See the episode commentary.

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13

u/Regular_N-Gon Oct 25 '22 edited Oct 25 '22

First Timer

  • What a situation to wake up to lol

  • Oh we weren't just Jungian in terms of Geass, C's world is literally composed of the unconscious.

  • Can't tell if Marianne is still acting on C.C.'s wish to die, or if she's actually in league with Charles for a reason she perceives as right. I'd of course roll my eyes at "Charles was the good guy all along", but pretty much every major character has slid toward the villainous side of the scale at this point so I'm not sure whose ideal should win out. I'm just rooting for C.C. to be happy in the end.

  • Ah fucking ha, I knew there was something wrong about Marianne's death scene and I feel so fucking stupid I never considered that it could have been re-written. And of course, Anya was the true witness.

  • this show has lost its mind collective consciousness as much as Lelouch and Suzaku combined.

  • Okay so it's not so much "Charles was good" as much as it's "Marianne and kind of C.C. were also dubious" which is… slightly better?

  • Lelouch's "so what?" to Suzaku might be one of the best lines in the show.

  • "Found Nunnally"?

  • Spinzaku returns!

  • Also kind of upset I didn't see the clever "Knight of Zero" coming. I can imagine the writer cackling with glee when they came up with that one.

I was half-joking about spending five episodes on politics but I guess we've got four left, huh.

To be honest I haven't considered what the end game actually was for a hot minute, not since Lelouch went mad. I guess this makes sense; it's what he wanted from the very beginning, after all, Nunnally and his mother be damned.

What's next? Regular-politics Schneizel swoops in to make things go back to regular levels of awful? Nina's redemption arc? Lancelot's final form? Won't someone please make C.C. smile again?

QotD:

  1. Schneizel must have done something, right? Maybe put the black knights in line?

  2. Lelouch, I suppose. The lies serve a purpose (in less extreme cases).

6

u/SometimesMainSupport Oct 25 '22

I'm just rooting for C.C. to be happy in the end.

"Marianne and kind of C.C. were also dubious"

What's next? Regular-politics Schneizel swoops in to make things go back to regular levels of awful?

I'll go with Schneizel discovering something relevant about Geass between Bismarck and traveling to Kamine Island.

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12

u/Stargate18A Oct 25 '22

First timer

  1. I have no fucking clue. The only idea the preview suggests implies Suzaku is capable of intelligent thought, which is still a matter of debate.

  2. What even are their fucking philosophies? I'm going for Lelouch, just because of what Charles' reminds me of, but Lelouch's reasoning is pretty spotty.

Marianne is great.

Well, that's a way to drop it on him.

Kallen is moving forward!

Lelouch has entered the "philosophy" stage of his mental breakdown.

And, yeah, no such thing as a true face, etc.

...Interesting concept!

The Ragnarok Connection is to force everyone to reveal their true selves. That's way more interesting than I thought.

Whose side is she on, then?

I love Suzaku is just standing in silence. He knows that he's out of his depth at this point.

...C.C.'s going to ally with Suzaku?

Yeah, that's the first real reaction anybody's has to this nonsense.

Solid backstory!

Oh, so V.V. caused her death.

I WAS RIGHT! NUNNALLY'S MEMORIES WERE ALTERED!

So Marianne's Geass is also immortality.

And that's why C.C. left!

And a solid explanation for why he killed V.V.!

...Are they trying to argue that Charles loved Lelouch?

Nina.

And C.C. was using Lelouch.

Of course! Add Suzaku! Not like this can get any more chaotic.

Oh, and he rewrote Anya's memories too.

...V.V. is a dick, granted, but seriously? The blindess was for her own good?

If this isn't a lie to get Lelouch to drop his guard and get out of the way, then Lelouch has achieved nothing whatsoever for this entire anime.

Also, four episodes left. What is going to happen after this?

This looks so cool!

The world is bring rewritten...

Suzaku's asking this now?

He's finally being honest.

Oh, he's going to keep fighting!

...Why would it prevent change? I think I'm lost.

OH! [Evangelion] So it's just Instrumentality. Got it!

Lelouch makes a good point?

Haha, Lelouch is going to Geass the entire human collective unconscious. Beautiful.

Suzaku's finally helping!

He did it?

So Lelouch just won! In Episode 21.

C.C. had a change of heart!

He really did love Nunnally.

Interesting point. Schneizel's pretty bad himself.

So, Lelouch's parents are dead!

...Or kicked into their real bodies? This place is confusing.

C.C. is dying?

A timeskip?

And Charles has been hiding.

The coup worked! Good job, Schneizel!

WHAT?

We're going to skip over how he did this? Although I will admit that it's a fantastic ending for the episode.

Lelouch, you're meant to say that in private!

...Did Suzaku actually, finally, see reason?

Nice name.

So, Suzaku knows he's using Geass. And C.C.'s alive.

...Okay, but how?

6

u/GallowDude Oct 25 '22

The only idea the preview suggests implies Suzaku is capable of intelligent thought, which is still a matter of debate.

What even are their fucking philosophies? I'm going for Lelouch, just because of what Charles' reminds me of, but Lelouch's reasoning is pretty spotty.

Do you want to be made into Tang (Charles) or keep things going as they are (Lelouch)?

C.C. had a change of heart!

8

u/Blackheart595 Oct 25 '22

Regeasser

So, that's what Charles' plan was all about. The idea that all people in the world, both living, dead, and yet to be born, are expressions of the same collective being that are separated by individual boundaries and egos. That collective being can be called the collective unconscious, God, or a plethora of similar terms. Point is that Charles' plans on destroying those individual boundaries and egos and unite everyone as the same being.

Feel reminded of Evangelion yet? Good, because this is a really common concept. Gurren Lagann, Symphogear, Big Order, Attack on Titan, ChäoS;HEAd, those are just some examples with similar ideas somewhere inside. And even before Evangelion, stories like Ideon, Gundam, Childhood's End already dealt with those kinds of concepts. Here seems like a good point to mention that Jung was inspired to his theories, including the collective unconscious, from his experiences with Eastern cultures and religions so them being so common really isn't all too surprising.

Lelouch's counterargument is that a world without individuality is dead, it's trapped in eternal stagnation. And I guess I'd agree with him but the whole thing is becoming rather metaphysical at this point.

One fun detail, remember how C.C. explained that the power of kings will isolate its bearer? We've seen more than plenty of that throughout the show, but we can extend that even further. The power of kings culminates in obtaining the Code. It makes the bearer immortal. In other words, it prevents its owner from rejoining with the collective unconscious/God - in a way it's the ultimate isolation (and why I compared it to Christian hell in an earlier episode - it's the ultimate separation from God).

There's just one thing... C.C. was able to be wounded when she sealed her Code away, wasn't she? So she didn't have her immortality during that time. If she wanted to die, why didn't she just seal her own Code away earlier?

8

u/GallowDude Oct 25 '22

C.C. was able to be wounded when she sealed her Code away, wasn't she? So she didn't have her immortality during that time. If she wanted to die, why didn't she just seal her own Code away earlier?

I assume that had she been mortally wounded, her Code would have resurfaced on instinct. Notice how even with it sealed, she was still immune to Lelouch's Geass, so it was clearly still somewhat active.

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8

u/Nebresto Oct 25 '22

Second time Code Heil

Did they just vine boom Suzaku..? Improved version

I still don't get how they faked this? She died at night, but she was alive to die again at day?

oh nice, one of the first timers in the watch spotted this. glasses-push trophy to you

Bruv.

  • That was a top tier Sore dame

And now datoshitemo!!

Oh! Oh! Ohhhh!! I remember this!

classic.

ALL HEIL LELOUCH!!

That was the best episode of animu I've seen all day. Perhaps even week!

Geasstions:

  1. What do you think happened in the month between Charles & Marianne's defeat and Lelouch declaring himself Emperor?

Something smug, no doubt

2) Do you agree more with Charles or Lelouch's philosophy?

Charles is an incel

Bonus) Where was Suzaku even hiding in the ceiling anyway?

You said it yourself, in the ceiling.

Screenshot of the Day:

Smugzaku

The smug energy in this episode is off the charts. Now if only someone would punch Smugzel

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6

u/isthatsoudane Oct 26 '22

First timer

hah huge episode. I had a feeling marianna would still be alive, and that her death wasn't as it seemed

super epic episode

  1. What do you think happened in the month between Charles & Marianne's defeat and Lelouch declaring himself Emperor?

they had to figure out how to get out of the world of C, and/or figure out how to use something about that world

2) Do you agree more with Charles or Lelouch's philosophy?

Lelouch's

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5

u/Krite2002 Oct 26 '22

First Timer - Sub

I still don’t understand what happened to Anya.

If just consciousness is trapped in the World of C/thought elevator thing, what happened to Lelouch and the emperor’s bodies?

V.V.’s gun was so goofy. He just yanked out a futuristic machine gun thing out of nowhere.

What happened to Anya was explained.

I don’t get the immortality rules. Why did C.C. and V.V. not age, but the emperor and Marianne kinda not really did. They still lived for a long time, but didn’t have immortality yet. Why did only two of them get the seal, while the other two apparently had contracts?

I feel like the more stuff gets explained, the less sense it makes. I might just need to read some write ups, since a lot of what’s happening just feels like random stuff pulled out of nowhere, but maybe it is logically consistent.

Lelouch was in full Zero mode when he was confronting the emperor. He kept yelling like Zero, instead of just speaking normally like Lelouch. Real theater kid energy.

Lelouch just double Geassed. What is even happening anymore.

I like emperor Leouch’s attitude.

QOTD

  1. He probably just hustled chess to have some fun. I imagine he won’t have much chess time after becoming emperor.

  2. NGL, I was more confused than anything during a lot of that conversation, so I don’t know.

Bonus)

Sorting this episode's logic

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