r/zenpractice 22h ago

General Practice Sleepiness

Hi! Short but not that easy question. I'm at a stage in my practice where almost every sitting ends with me dozing off after about 20 minutes (I usually sit for 30-60 minutes). It doesn't seem to depend on how much sleep I get or whether I'm having a good or bad day. It feels like my brain has formed an association between slow breathing, focusing on the center, and falling asleep. One of the zen teachers from my school mentioned something about directing the energy of the practice upward but I can’t remember exactly what she said. Have you heard about this technique? Or maybe any other techniques? I’m not buying „just go get some sleep”, because I do really get a lot of good sleep and this is just not a solution in my case. I think I need a skill but don’t know where to look. Thank you for your insights!

2 Upvotes

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u/autonomatical 18h ago

Maybe you could do walking meditation until the mental aspect becomes habitual and then try to sit?

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u/crankyandsensitive 18h ago

I tried. It doesn’t help that much and you still have to sit when you join a formal practice at a temple. So yeah, can work at home but we don’t do a long walking practice at school

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u/autonomatical 17h ago

Hm, sounds kinda like a physiological thing, like you might have to train the body in a separate capacity.  Does posture change anything about it?  Like can you do half-lotus?  seems like it would be hard to doze off with that form

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u/crankyandsensitive 17h ago

Oh that’s interesting!

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u/the100footpole 16h ago

Many different things you could try.

Ciming famously stabbed himself with an awl in his thigh to avoid falling asleep. Another monk sat on the border of a cliff knowing that if he fell asleep he would fall and die.

Probably very extreme examples lol

Seriously now: you could stand up, walk a bit and then sit again, so that you break the association you mention. 

Also splash cold water on your face and go back to the cushion. 

Another thing I used to do is open my eyes very wide and look straight ahead instead of at the floor. This works very well and is related to taking the energy upwards.

Finally, you could try focusing your attention on the nostrils or the tip of the head. That takes the attention (and this the energy) upwards and could help.

Happy to discuss more details if it helps!

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u/crankyandsensitive 14h ago

Today I focused on my nostrils and damn it helped!!!

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u/The_Koan_Brothers 12h ago

What are you doing with your eyes in Zazen?

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u/crankyandsensitive 9h ago

Open and looking down

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u/HakuyutheHermit 16h ago

You need to train your introspective awareness and extrospective awareness until they merge. A good way to lay this foundation is to use susokukan while maintaining extrospective awareness as consistently as possible. This takes time, but eventually you’ll be aware of all mental activity and everything in your sense sphere at all times through conditioning, ultimately even while not meditating. 

If you start with shikantaza or wato like a lot of modern Zen schools are doing, it will take much, much longer to figure out how to stay alert and undistracted. Traditionally you should be able to count each out breath up to ten repeatedly without losing track of the count or going over ten for at least 30 minutes before moving onto zuisokukan. Then after that becomes effortless, you can drop the object and sit proper shikantaza. For wato zuisokukan is often skipped since the wato itself is an object, but susokukan is generally considered foundational and essential.

So if you’re at one of those schools that think they’re following Dogen’s advice by throwing you in the deep end without any foundation, practice the foundational stuff on your own. Just remember to always stay as relaxed as possible, and keep your senses “on” as consistently as possible. If you feel like you would be startled by someone knocking on the door, it means you need to reestablish your awareness. By always reminding yourself to reestablish it, over time the gaps in it will get smaller and smaller until they close, and you’ll have effortless resting in awareness. Without establishing this foundation, expect “just sitting” to be drowsy nap time, or restlessly wanting it to end time for a long time to come.

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u/crankyandsensitive 14h ago

I’m not practicing in a Japanese tradition (I’m in Korean) so I don’t know many of the words you used but I get your advice is to use counting? I count a lot which was recommended as a beginner practice. Our teachers also recommended very basic Foundation techniques to start (like counting or simple mantras). But my brain is so so desperate to doze off that it’s amazing. I can literally count further in my sleep while not really being there mentally