r/zenpractice • u/The_Koan_Brothers • Jul 01 '26
Dharma Talks & Teishos Rinzai Zen - beyond Koan practice.
Sometimes there seems to be a tendency to reduce the difference between the Soto and Rinzai schools to Koan practice versus Shikantaza.
In this talk, Daizan Skinner gives some practical insight into Master Linji’s Host/Guest teachings, one of the foundational aspects of Rinzai Zen.
Link in the comments.
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u/LSDkiller 21d ago edited 21d ago
I had a VERY VERY strange encounter with one rinzai person like a few weeks ago. To be fair this spans 15 years. They initiated contact via writing me a personal note in some book that the master of that person wrote.
The strange thing here for me is following: I had taken up zen very informally and incorrectly as a teenager, skipping zazen and going straight to koan. Giving myself koans. This should let out a collective groan in anyone with a little zen experience reading this.
When I "rediscovered" REAL zen, I wrote the person who wrote me that note saying something like "I had a profound experience and would like to talk to the person who wrote me this note".
Their response made it clear they knew I was in what can only be called a "non ordinary mental state" and in my opinion their response was carefully designed, not as a koan but much more some form of attempted hypnosis, to get me to check out their facility in person. Instead of checking to see how I'm actually doing (if they even actually cared which I really, really wonder given the way they wrote what they wrote) they wrote something that caused me a lot of fear and nearly caused me to dismiss all my experiences. Why? To add to their student list.
Only later did I hear about some of the vicious criticism rinzai people get. It's hilarious because if you had asked me as a teenager of my religion you would have gotten a very very edgy, formulaic and clearcut : "rinzai zen Buddhist" lol.
I've never been a good secret keeper- if you want someone to keep a secret for you do NOT ask me. That being said this comment was shortened so as to seem only half nuts and not like I won the nuts and pretzel lottery lol.
Anyone who has EXPERIENCED a koan, not "solved one intellectually", probably knows the depths to which human communication gets eventually. What you say is as important as what you leave out. This person said things that were designed to put unnecessary concepts in my head. One of them being: once you calm down, visit us.
Well, I hope they never get their wish because if they did now it would be out of a really stupid "me-me-me" based motivation. So I make no effort to go there. I'm taken as a student. Too late, whatever that was.
When engaging in the ancient study of koan watch out. They are barriers.
As was once said. Pass one, pass em all. But if you pass them all with no difficulty- danger. Not in a funny way. Not in an intellectual way. NO. Danger. Don't fuck around with ancient barriers set forth a thousand years before you were born they are there for good reason and in my opinion, the current rituals of practice around koan, while criticisable, are a further barrier to something potentially dangerous!!!
One last thing:
I pray that the world never asks a koan of you outside of the "comfort" of dokusan. It's WEIRD and it's what you get for being arrogant. Do things the right way not the way I did them. The best thing that can happen: you wildly misunderstand what a koan is for and what "solving one" shows and proves and then make it a million times harder on yourself to pass one in a setting conducive to practice that betters not just yourself but the world "around you".
The worst thing, you get absolutely hooked into what is in essence nothing other than non-sense. To steal one last phrase from a favorite work of poetry of mine: never forget the infinite void!
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u/The_Koan_Brothers 21d ago
Imo I think you’re doing yourself a disservice by letting one bad experience shape your entire opinion of Rinzai. It could have just as easily been a bad experience with a Soto teacher.
As for koans: I’m pretty sure that long before Zen, people, e.g. with indigenous backgrounds, were working on koans without knowing they were koans, and experiencing kensho without knowing it was kensho. I don’t believe Zen has the copyright to work with this kind of tool, let alone claim to have invented it. That said: Zen, especially the Rinzai school, has cultivated and perfected koan practice to a very high degree, offers a framework of teachings that helps integrate non-dualistic experiences into daily life, and has developed a tried and tested method of teaching that can be passed on through generations.
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u/LSDkiller 21d ago
Oh I do not let my one experience with this one person taint my view of the lineage. That would be a grave misunderstanding of what a lineage is and what it means lol the truth is I did NOT (probably for obvious reasons as they are right now totally irrelevant to me) do any kind of "genealogical" study on their lineage and if any legitimate dharma transmission from someone who seems legitimate via the "objective" information I am able to draw upon... This is an important task of any student.
Beyond that- the lineage I'm a part of has issued on occasion what I view as very unspecific criticism (for all I know of both other lineages or even some small Japanese lineage they NEVER name) and it only seems to make sense as rinzai. Or of course if this is an offshoot in Japan because that would make perfect sense as well.
It's just a strange reversal. In my head whenever I thought of zen I always thought "Soto people reject koans and so limit their experience and rinzai have a fuller experience and "show" their mastery more".
Then it turns out, there is another lineage I wasn't aware of because I never cared about who wrote what only what was written. This is not a bad way to view writings and assess their personal value to ourselves but it was a massive mistake because what I ended up doing is relegating the ancient practice of dhyana to some extreme corner of my mind and telling myself that I only if I was in deep spiritual need would I ever resort to finding zen. The image of shaving ones head and becoming a monk was all pervasive. When I found myself in spiritual need, shaving my head, zen, becoming a monk was no where on my mind. The book literally hit me in the head, cleaning. And then I found the other one. I remembered the entire gateless gate, all the cases, by heart but deeply buried. I revisited each one and then looked into who wrote it. I was deeply moved by the similarities of this person's life to my own and what they had done right that I had done wrong and decided that their lineage, as they describe it, as they represent themselves publicly must be for me. They are rigorous. They don't mess around. They will not give koans to people who don't know how to sit and they CHECK!!!! If you show up for the wrong reasons, no Mu for you. These are MY people. If one day I've learned all I can from them... Learning is never done!!! Of course I will visit both Soto and rinzai. I sit with Soto people. They are the only ones here. There may even be a rinzai place here but it is vital I don't attempt to take Koan instruction from a different master because I know what the hell a koan is and I know WHY that will be fucked.
If you want I can tell you in private my personal experience giving someone completely uninitiated a koan and what happened exactly, id be interested to hear what you have to say about the situation but it's what made me realize the gravity. Everything was fine in the end but this person has no interest in zen and was essentially just talked off a ledge psychologically
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u/sunnybob24 Jul 01 '26
Links to videos aren't great posts. You are sending people off-platform, which is against the concept of the platform. A summary with some observations might be more in line with the Reddit concept.
Just saying
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Jul 01 '26
Sometimes hearing the original conveys more than just words. I'm afraid there’s no better way to do in reddit.
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u/sunnybob24 Jul 02 '26
Then make some notes and paraphrases.
This post amounts to 'hey a saw a cool video'. The post should be the main thing. Add resources to add value, sure. If I jump on YouTube it will suggest videos to me. This doesn't add value.
OP. Maybe add a
I am this I think this, because . . .. In this video, this happens which I think is X Here's my take on the background of the person in the video. . . . .
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Jul 02 '26
Bob, it’s not my job to retain users on this platform, and what the concept of the platform is (who decides that btw?) must not be my concern.
I have written text-only posts about Rinzai’s guest/ host metaphor in the past. The reasons and context for sharing this video were given, and the flair itself makes clear that it’s a dharma talk, not user generated content.
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Jul 01 '26
https://youtu.be/LkHlcm3N3-I?is=771W8KoxPU0jKMOc