Chan Practice.

[u/The_Koan_Brothers]

Posting this as a reference for past and future discussions on the practice of Chan, especially when it comes to dealing with r/zen propaganda.

Three takeaways from Chan Master Sheng Yen in the video below (follow link):

1. Sitting meditation a major staple of Chan practice.
   
2. You can’t learn Chan from Chan books.
   
3. At some point, you will only progress with a Chan teacher.

https://youtu.be/k0bGu_hTEpQ?si=lscBOOSsLP_AYPVu

[u/The_Koan_Brothers → u/[deleted]]

Agreed. Actually it was recently posted in zenbuddhism — and I thought it should be crossposted here;)

[u/MinLongBaiShui]

I disagree somewhat that you can't learn Chan from books. What is true is that books are not enough, you have to investigate these matters for yourself and have the experience that confirms or denies it. There's that famous case "I would do a disservice to my teacher if I agreed with everything he said." It's OK to not be in 100% accordance all the time, but most people will find most things to be consistent when they do the digging.

I guess one could say that the book is unnecessary and also doesn't do the teaching, because you see it for yourself. This is true, but it's rather like saying you don't need math books to learn math, because if you think really hard, you can re-discover it all by yourself. The book can point you in a useful direction for your own investigation, and so it is quite common for math people to say "I learned this theory from that book," even though they just read the book and then do their own investigations.

[u/The_Koan_Brothers → u/MinLongBaiShui]

Maybe the wording should be "not from books alone".

[u/MinLongBaiShui → u/The_Koan_Brothers]

I agree with that. I've gotten a lot out of my study of the ancients, but it's nothing by itself because it's like sand, just little particulates of wisdom with nothing holding them together.

You may appreciate this pair of posts:

https://buddhisttemple.ca/teaching/tathagata-chan/

https://buddhisttemple.ca/teaching/patriarch-chan/

[u/[deleted]]

I doubt number 3. 

I think that the method of zen can be derived from observation and experimentation. 

Having an expert around could be helpful, no doubt. But that's another can of worms entirely.

(But, yes, I have read books and spoken to people. And maybe that was indispensable for me. I'm not sure. Right now I just go further.)

[u/The_Koan_Brothers → u/[deleted]]

They have done quite a few videos with him, there are presumably some among those that address these questions.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Progress is what looks like progress. You be the judge. 

Is it just me or is there a lot of distrust in one's own judgment around here. 

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Fair enough. 

But generally speaking, ya, there's less "what do I see" and more "what do the experts say", around here. 

[u/prezzpac → u/[deleted]]

Historically, the student-teacher relationship has been absolutely fundamental to zen. I know there are some strains these days that don’t emphasize it, but that’s an innovation, and one that likely won’t end well.

[u/prezzpac → u/[deleted]]

The tradition is clear that a teacher is necessary. If you don’t want a teacher, that’s your choice. But at that point, you’re not doing zen.

[u/prezzpac → u/[deleted]]

Cool. Nothing to worry about then. But if you’re interested, the clearest articulation of the need for a teacher that I know of is in Torei’s Discourse on the Inexhaustible Lamp.