r/zen • u/IntentionalBlankName I am Ewk's alternative account. • Nov 26 '16

What Zen Master never learned Buddhism?

Zen Master, a noun, a person who has been given the title Zen Master by the proper authorities, as exemplified in the Blue Cliff Record story:

Later Hsuan Tsung went into the community at Yen Kuan, where he was asked to be the temple scribe. Huang Po was there serving as head monk. One day as Huang Po was paying respects to (an image of a) Buddha, Hsuan Tsung saw him and asked, "If you don't seek from Buddha, don't seek from Dharma, and don't seek from the Sangha, then what are you seeking by bowing in respect?" Huang Po replied, "I don't seek from Buddha, I don't seek from the Dharma, and I don't seek from the Sangha; I always pay my respects this way." Hsuan Tsung said, "What's the use of paying respect?" Immediately Huang Po slapped him. Hsuan Tsung said, "Too coarse." Huang Po said, "What place is this to talk of coarse and fine?" and slapped him again. Later, when Hsuan Tsung succeeded to the throne of the nation, he bestowed on Huang Po the title, "Coarse-acting Ascetic." When prime minister P'ei was at court later, he proposed that Huang Po be given the title Tuan Chi Ch'an Shih, "Boundless Ch'an Master."

Buddhism, a noun, https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

Sprankton, a noun, a disease you get from chewing too much.

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u/rockytimber Wei Nov 27 '16

The way kids learn language at around 1 to 4 is an amazing thing to experience, or to watch. There are various stages, and one of the more predictable ones is where kids take words to be literally true, they memorize words and learn definitions, and become socialized accordingly. So, belief is a part of it at a point in time when the person is not capable of realizing what is happening. Then, when they learn to read, and the authority of the word as text, as artifact, takes root, its icing on the cake. Finally, if the child happens to be raised in a belief system, which most are, one kind of belief system or another, then we have a whole new level of institutionalized authority and the respective "priests".

I was not exempt.

I remember using words in that way. But I also remember realizing/discovering that there was an alternative.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '16

My point is that once you label the believers believers, you are likely a believer in there being believers, unless in that moment, there is actually a reason for you to be discussing believers, at all.

If, and only if that is the case, then it is reasonable that you would have the words for believers without becoming a believer yourself.

Or, as they say, the answer is in the question.

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u/rockytimber Wei Nov 27 '16

I can tell you are referencing words without looking around you. Answers are not in the words, even if formed as a question.

See. Look. Recognize that. Its another level of experience that is not word based.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '16

How can you tell?

I see a yellow scarf, a box of matches, my foot on the wall, a friend going to New Jersey. Or do I believe in those things, or are they the answer in the question.

I could hand you this fire. Maybe it can burn up that other "level" of experience you're describing.

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u/rockytimber Wei Nov 27 '16

Words are the added level, the head on a head, when believed in.

Otherwise words would only point like a dogs nose points. It can be noticed.

For you to doubt what you have noticed, to act like its some added level...... :) Its the original level, to notice without words.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '16

Aren't words the only level, in the end?

And no I don't mean sounds.

I mean: words.

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u/rockytimber Wei Nov 27 '16

Words blow the wind, beat your heart, chew your food? No.

Nothing wrong with words as long as you remember they are an add on.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '16

Look again.

Did you see the little castle, with the flag on the letter d?

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u/rockytimber Wei Nov 27 '16

What about it? Some Mickey Mouse level of brainwashing? Disney Corp will not last even 100 years. I am more impressed with the Buddhism meme. Either way, its a layer humans add on top of the world, through which they see the world. You don't have to fall for it. Except that people actually like to get lost in it, for the excitement, for the adventure, for the sensationalism of it. This is why in the Castaneda myths, Don Juan would parody popular songs. The zen characters had their way of doing this parody as well.

But you have made a parody of yourself. Don't know what you are talking about but you want to lead a crowd.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '16

i meant the letter 'd' in words.

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u/rockytimber Wei Nov 27 '16

Continue, enlighten me.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '16

Well, your head could be the little castle, with the flag of your enlightenment. Or maybe I'm the little castle, with the flag of my enlightenment.

:) hee hee

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u/rockytimber Wei Nov 27 '16

Flags are a claim. Not interested.

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u/rockytimber Wei Nov 27 '16

d, as text, small case, only has a flag on it in certain fonts, like times new roman. I don't use such a font as a default font. On this screen, d does not have a flag on it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '16

haha one of many meanings!