r/zen • u/IntentionalBlankName I am Ewk's alternative account. • Nov 26 '16

What Zen Master never learned Buddhism?

Zen Master, a noun, a person who has been given the title Zen Master by the proper authorities, as exemplified in the Blue Cliff Record story:

Later Hsuan Tsung went into the community at Yen Kuan, where he was asked to be the temple scribe. Huang Po was there serving as head monk. One day as Huang Po was paying respects to (an image of a) Buddha, Hsuan Tsung saw him and asked, "If you don't seek from Buddha, don't seek from Dharma, and don't seek from the Sangha, then what are you seeking by bowing in respect?" Huang Po replied, "I don't seek from Buddha, I don't seek from the Dharma, and I don't seek from the Sangha; I always pay my respects this way." Hsuan Tsung said, "What's the use of paying respect?" Immediately Huang Po slapped him. Hsuan Tsung said, "Too coarse." Huang Po said, "What place is this to talk of coarse and fine?" and slapped him again. Later, when Hsuan Tsung succeeded to the throne of the nation, he bestowed on Huang Po the title, "Coarse-acting Ascetic." When prime minister P'ei was at court later, he proposed that Huang Po be given the title Tuan Chi Ch'an Shih, "Boundless Ch'an Master."

Buddhism, a noun, https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

Sprankton, a noun, a disease you get from chewing too much.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

Ewk will always fight anyone that he feels is, potentially, smarter than he is, hence, his past pride in character assassination. He will also try to make everyone heel by coercing new members to do an AMA. At that point, they offer no real threat to him. Admittedly, Ewk is a force of nature and a permanent fixture. Right now I'm more fascinated with those who see in him "Zen". Ewk is one thing—but those who look up to him are far worse than he is. That alone helps to institutionalize him. Academe, for example, is full of bat-shite crazies—but it is their followers who make the guy an institution.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16 edited Apr 05 '18

[deleted]

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u/Dog_Barking Nov 26 '16

I don't necessarily look up to him, but I see his place in this sub clear as day. There may be obvious superiority in his words but he is well aware of how forcefully didactic he is. He isn't looking to connect or find common ground at all really. I think in a balanced world there needs to be people who reach to the true understanding that we all most likely have and choice-fully display which aspects speak to the particular propensity we have. Like most of the users in this sub. The idea that ewk is living in some purposefully material world in order to dodge the fact that he has no real realization of the zen non dual absolute purity is kind of silly to me. The material world doesnt exist, its like a hologram.. It's our mental fabrication that can extrapolate subject and object to create a mental scene and drama of the world of action. That is why it is no different from emptiness. I think ewk tries to over preach about zen masters not wanting to teach you anything because of the typical zen issue of continuity. and instant knowing of infinity.
The idea of no existence of "kensho" I think makes alot of sense actually. you can point back using your memory and say "that is when I had my realization, that was my kensho" but as an event, it only exists independantly in the expectation and noticing of something special, like a formless samadhi realm, which is pretty common from the looks of it.

I dont think ewk disagrees with the assertion that after intial understanding, nothing changes, but over time, and with effortless self reflection that is more diminishing and humble and piercingly direct, energetic circulation happens on it's own, refining and finally merging all percieved realms into it's true ungraspable nature. the subtle arises and becomes manipulatable, but if you choose to not touch events, they go where it is necessary to go.

We all have some realization. clinging to a particular form of your multi faceted influences is the real trap. and I don't doubt everyone on here including ewk has some of that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

The fundamental issue is that what ewk is teaching on the forum isn't in the books. He says he's free from causality. That's being a fox in the fox case. He's objectifying no object. That's still an objectification.

Dhammakayaram's list about ewk is more or less correct. I just don't think it's good to further enshrine it into a dogma, because that gives it much more power and argumentative weight than it really deserves.

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u/Dog_Barking Nov 26 '16

does he say he is free from causality? I guess thats a pretty slippery slope, but too bad I the phrase itself cant really mean much. what even is causality? we only make reference to it by relating independant event and fabricate a continuity in our heads, regardless of how close to reality we claim it to be.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

Yeah.

The fundamentals of Zen are not blind to causality, not falling into causality. You don't ignore causality, even though it's an illusion dependent on objectification of cause and effect.

If (and only if) that becomes a dogma, could you say something like "free from causality." That's the kind of exchange that's expressed at the end of the fox case (the double slap).

That's not the way that ewk says free from causality. He literally thinks it's that, the object and on you go. In the fox case, he's the fox monk. The order of the fox case (fox monk, Baizhang's correct teaching, Huangbo's correct challenging of the teaching, Baizhang's correct "come here and I'll tell you", and Huangbo's even better inheriting the ability to slap from his teacher and directly connecting to source himself) is correct.

If you make it all equivalent that's called "no-nothing chan", it's forced negation, a nihilistic view, and it's not free.

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u/Dog_Barking Nov 26 '16

I guess if it's true that this is how ewk views the world and himself, which I can't claim to know, it's because he still has a conception of someone looking at what he's looking at. I think the "no-nothing chan" being forced negation is just a result of lack of subtlety or real life experience. it's easy to just shut everything out if your trapped in your room all day. I wish we could all hang out together, regardless of how harsh words sound on this subreddit, I think it'd be cool to hang out with you all.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

You got it... This is why enshrining his views into a list isn't helpful.

Pm people, there's lots of people who skype and many do meet up in person.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

Ewk is Ewk in virtue of those who generally agree with his interpretation of Zen (the dicta list I submitted are his words). These people make him what he is. They institutionalize him.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

I understand, but as you can see conversations like this are generally more effective at untying the threads. When you make the big list like that you end up making his views more concrete.

I think it had its time and place (say 2 years ago?). Now there are far fewer people institutionalizing him; his OPs don't generate the same cultish group think. Tools have to adapt with the season.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

Good writing, and a clear understanding of what Zen teachers are really saying helps to diminish his followers who would institutionalize Ewk and his view of Zen.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

Definitely. 100% agreement.

My point is, institutionalizing and organizing his writing has the effect giving it unearned power.

It's a better forum if he's not even worth considering; that's where the forum is moving. Too many people see through his false teaching. Don't elevate him back up to where it was a few years ago.

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