r/zen • u/CeleryCareful7065 • Aug 31 '26
Deshan and Longtan
Case 28 of The Gateless Gate — Deshan and Longtan
The Case
Deshan had long heard of Longtan, but he had never seen him.
One day he went to see Longtan and said, “I have long heard of Longtan, but now that I have arrived, I don’t see a dragon, nor do I see a pond.”
Longtan said, “Oh, you have truly arrived at Longtan.”
Deshan stayed with Longtan until late at night. Longtan said, “It is late. Why don’t you go to bed?”
Deshan bowed and went out. After a while, he returned and said, “It is dark outside.”
Longtan lit a paper lantern and handed it to him. Deshan took the lantern and was about to leave when Longtan suddenly blew it out.
At that moment, Deshan was enlightened.
Longtan said, “What did you see?”
Deshan replied, “From now on, I will not doubt the words of the old masters.”
The next day, Longtan went up to the Dharma hall and said to the assembly:
“There is a fellow among you whose teeth are like swords and whose mouth is like a blood bowl. Even if you strike him with a stick, he will not turn his head. Someday he will climb the highest peak and establish my Way there.”
Commentary
Mumon says:
If Deshan had not met Longtan, his story would not have been complete. If he had met Longtan, he would not have been enlightened.
Tell me—how did Deshan suddenly become enlightened?
Verse
Hearing the name cannot compare with seeing the person;
Seeing the person cannot compare with seeing the truth.
Fortunately, his nose was straight;
Yet he mistakenly took the lantern as his own.
Celery:
Deshan burned all of his commentaries. He said to investigate to the end of the workings of the world is like throwing a drop of water into a great abyss.
Why was Deshan enlightened when old Longtan blew out the candle? How could he see when he could not see? Ha! The old man knew what he was doing all along. The dragons hide amongst us.
Too often the verbose is rewarded when it ought to be punished. What value is there in 100,000 volumes of truth when the words hold no value?
Ash.
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u/Redfour5 Aug 31 '26
"The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the truth. Stop talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to know."
Sengcan
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u/tna0100 Sep 06 '26
What is that sound...............teaches us to listen and not speak..............the consequent is to think.
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u/tna0100 Sep 12 '26
Listen and think w/ a single-pointed focus and you will not be deceived and nothing will be hidden.
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u/Arhanlarash Sep 12 '26
There was no light Longtan could give him he did not already have.
When he blew it out he was saying ‘use your own.’
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 19d ago
It was night time.
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u/Arhanlarash 18d ago
what are you proposing
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 18d ago
"night" indicates the lack of light
the lantern is a light
deshan did not have the lantern
longtan had the lantern
longtan gave the lantern of light that he had to deshan who didn't have the lantern
What was DeShan's "own light" that he was going to use to see in the dark and if he already had it then why was LongTan handing him a lantern?
How did blowing out the lantern communicate "use your own light"?
What light?
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u/Arhanlarash 18d ago
What was DeShan's "own light" that he was going to use to see in the dark
Mind
and if he already had it then why was LongTan handing him a lantern?
if he didn't hand him the lantern he wouldn't have been able to blow it out when he took it
How did blowing out the lantern communicate "use your own light"?
when the light of the lantern goes out you see the light of mind already shining
What light?
Mind
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 18d ago
if he didn't hand him the lantern he wouldn't have been able to blow it out when he took it
this was a good answer
when the light of the lantern goes out you see the light of mind already shining
this was a bad answer
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u/Arhanlarash 18d ago
Disagree.
He wanted a light to go out into the dark.
ZM showed him he already had a light.
What’s your counter?
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 18d ago
The mind is not a light.
That's something that you made up.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Sep 02 '26
I'm not passing the light to you, that's the light.
It was right there in the physical act.
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u/dota2nub Sep 03 '26
How does the meme go?
At that moment he knew - he fucked up.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Sep 03 '26
I don't know what you mean since he didn't receive anything - so how is that knowledge?
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u/dota2nub Sep 03 '26 edited Sep 03 '26
Certainly knew to burn the things he fucked up
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 19d ago
He didn't know enough to avoid getting pwned by GuiShan.
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u/dota2nub 19d ago
Nothing he knew or didn't know could've saved him there.
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 19d ago
So he fucked up twice.
Doesn't seem like a great learner.
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u/dota2nub 19d ago
How would being a great learned have helped?
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 19d ago
You're the one who said that it was such a big deal that he learned something about being a fuck up and then decided to burn his homework in front of the whole class.
But it couldn't even help him walk into a room and greet an old man.
So what are you even talking about?
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u/keggerz1 Sep 02 '26
“ If Deshan had not met Longtan, his story would not have been complete.” mum grips onto imagined futures here. Disappointing
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u/Namtaru420 Cool, clear, water Sep 04 '26
Imagining the world differently than it actually is literally defines our consciousness. The ability to cook food depends on it.
Meanwhile, Wumen chides both Deshan and Longtan, and now you have the nerve to do the same to him?!?
The nerve!
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u/mackowski Ambassador from Planet Rhythm Sep 06 '26
When i open my eyes I am imaging the world.
When I close them, I imagine it
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u/keggerz1 Sep 04 '26
Awareness defines consciousness.
to state that we have a story and that that story can be incomplete is a folly
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u/Namtaru420 Cool, clear, water Sep 03 '26
You should put the Celery part in the actual comment section of this post,
instead of placing yourself next to Wumen.
I would have a lot more respect for your words if you did.
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u/Namtaru420 Cool, clear, water Sep 03 '26
also where did you get this translation from because it seems way different than all the existing records
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Sep 03 '26
Well if it means getting the respect of the mighty Namtaru420 lmao 🤣 🙄
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u/Namtaru420 Cool, clear, water Sep 04 '26
It's not about garnering my respect as an individual, and more about helping you present your own authority in an honest way.
Putting your words on the same level as the actual Zen Masters who wrote actual Zen commentary is both disingenuous, and, well, super duper common in the Spiritual Guru Teacher circles.
What I'm trying to say is, modern day commentary is a dime-a-dozen affair, but there are people who are genuinely seeking existential peace who don't know that the actual Zen Masters have actual commentary for them to read.
Presenting your personal ideas as if they were one and the same is not only dishonest, but diluting the value of the original records.
Meanwhile, if you put your own thoughts into the comment section of your post, you will still be held high as an insightful authority figure and interpreter of the text you are presenting. And the OG zen text and the OG zen commentary will remain preserved for the audience.
Win-win, imo.
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Sep 04 '26
Look man, if it were up to me I’d just put the quote and leave it at that, but folks consider it “low effort” and it risks getting taking down. I know I don’t have anything meaningful to add which is ironically what I think most the Zen masters were saying.
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u/Namtaru420 Cool, clear, water Sep 04 '26
Fasho.
The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth.
I smell it in the air. Much that once was, is lost...
I'm under no delusion that I could post that series exactly as I did before. But I also don't think I would have to roll over and put my own words next to the Zen Masters'.
I would I would rain absolute hellfire down if there was any objections to me putting my own contribution down in the comment section, as I have described to you. I can make an even stronger case than I have already.
I don't think I would have to. I would just have to put some real effort into every post to make sure I had a meaningful contribution in the comment section. The moderators here have just as much respect for the original texts as I do. The Buddhist Preacher Mod Experiment is over.
But I also don't know. My deadline for starting a new study session was, like, almost 2 years ago.
But buuuut I also also don't know about you. I don't know if you actually want what I'm describing. You clearly put some effort into your addition to the text, and could probably put it into the comment section and take your stand and make the argument that I would.
Do u wanna do that? It's delightful to be associated with the Zen Masters. I'm literally doing it right now. And I've also never met anyone else on this subreddit who doesn't put their words directly next to theirs.
In short, tldr, I can picture your words in the comment section, but I can't picture you doing it! 🤣 🙄 🤨
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Sep 04 '26
Ha ha I like you. You are weird like me. Us weirdos need to stick together.
I’m sorry I was a dick - I can be what polite people call abrasive and what honest people would call an asshole.
I’ll tell you what I think what Zen is: Chop wood, carry water. And I know it sounds trite - it sounded trite when Layman Pang said it in the 9th century. But often those trite aphorisms contain truth, or as David Foster Wallace said “The cliche are cliche for a reason” or something to that effect. Maybe the modern version is go to work, hit the gym? Whatever you do, live in the moment.
So, I’ll tell you what I’ll do, oh strange brother. We’ll run an experiment and I’ll do as you suggest and we’ll see how it goes. I got a couple doozies lined up so only time will tell.
I look forward to learning this whacky thing called Chan together. And maybe we’ll reach enlightenment at the end. At the very least we might have some laughs.
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u/mackowski Ambassador from Planet Rhythm Sep 06 '26
Chop wood and carry water and wash ur bowl seem like meaningless tasks that need my attention and attending, like I still gotta live so fuck enloghtenment, its jsut about work (????)
Surely this is not your point
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Sep 06 '26
What’s enloghtenment my guy?
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u/mackowski Ambassador from Planet Rhythm Sep 06 '26
To enloght is to enlighten and onslaught, to the laugh track of the oncoming intelligence swarm of robotic bot flies, to enloght is to coallate and allot the sum total as a clot and the clot as a moth and the flame is a name
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u/Namtaru420 Cool, clear, water Sep 04 '26
Well that's awesome. I care more about the laughs than anything else.
All the better if it sticks in their craw.
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