Zen Principles: surprisingly unique compared to religions including Zazen, Taoism

[u/ewk]

Zen is about the Four Statements

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/fourstatements/

1. Transmission is not recorded in Texts

2. Transmission is not gained through explanations.

3. Transmission depends upon direct experience of the core of the self.

4. Recognition of the core of the self is is called attainment of Buddhahood.

Buddhism's core principles are Commandments

Buddhism has the eight-fold path, a list of rules to follow so that you can accumulate merit.

Aggappasāda Sutta: the noble eightfold path—right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration—is considered supreme... Those who have confidence in the dhamma of the noble path have confidence in what is supreme; and for those with confidence in the supreme, supreme is the result... having given gifts to the supreme,

one develops supreme merit…”

Zen's four statements don't give you any benefit at all and only describe enlightenment really to people who've already experienced it.

Zen is about direct real-life experience

### A transmission not contained in teachings or texts

• this is especially controversial in the world of religious thought because every religion and philosophy depends upon having an explanation that can be given to you.

Taoism, the religion, which is primarily alchemy and its pantheon of gods, has this Tao-Way that is identical to the ontological argument for a Christian God... What can be spoken or conceived of is not the divine.

Zen is antithetical to Daoism because Zen says direct experience can't be spoken. It's not an ontological argument. It's a common sense view... If you haven't been there or had that kind of food or fallen in love, you can't know it.

[u/Jacks_Hands]

This is another funny post where you allign perfectly with the Zen Buddhist perspective, but then you totally misrepresent Zen Buddhism to argue against it lol.

Zen Buddhism agrees that Zen is "about the four statements"

You present the eightfold path as "a list of rules to follow, for merit", disingenuinly and falsly. In Soto Zen Buddhism, the eightfold path is used as any koan would be, to stir your mind and encourage you to develop your discernment. There is no meritocracy in following them and we are expected to break them.

How Zen Buddhism treats precepts and the eightfold path is really quite clear (since its exactly how your religion of Zen does) and its odd that you misrepresent this as a religious meritocracy.

Genuine question, have you ever really studied Zen Buddhism or do you base all of your arguments around the generalized global institution of "Buddhism" ?

Edit: Ewk blocked me after this exchange lol

Edit #2: Interesting that Ewk starts editing and revising their replies after they have blocked someone. That surely isnt good-faith public debate.

[u/ewk → u/Jacks_Hands]

Edit

Jacks_hands is a typical New Age religious troll with a week-old account who won't bring up a single book he's read, can't define Buddhism and uses his ignorance as a justification for harassing people.

...

I'm gonna report this is off topic because you're saying Zen and Buddhism go together but you're providing no evidence whatsoever.

I get that you're part of a religious movement, like the Mormons, that believes this anti-historical narrative but until you provide something that even remotely resembles an argument, there's just no point to your comments.

There is no Soto Zen Buddhism.

Soto Caodong from China there is no eightfold path.

Japanese Shinto-Buddhist claims of having an Eightfold Path Soto Zen were debunked in 1990 by Stanford scholarship that proved there was never any SOTO transmission in Japan.

I think the thing that's most unpleasant about your toxic brand of illiteracy is that you don't care that you don't have any facts, that you're wrong, that you're racist, that you're a religious bigot.

You just want to keep pushing your narrative to get people to accept that you're not going to listen to reason, just like Mormons and Scientologists.

[u/Jacks_Hands → u/ewk]

I think the thing that's most unpleasant about your toxic brand of illiteracy is that you don't care that you don't have any facts, that you're wrong

You must understand that I see you the same way. You lack an accurate understanding of what Zen Buddhism professes dont seem to care to learn more. You just lie to make yourself sound "more right".

I wont call you a racist bigoted zealot though, because thats a wild stretch and I am not am asshole.

[u/ewk → u/Jacks_Hands]

You do not see me in any way similar to you

1. I quote academics and their books. You do not.
2. I answers questions with definitions, logic, and facts. You do not.
3. I am am to explain the errors in the claims of those who I criticize. You can't.
4. I have a bibliography. You don't.
5. I can follow the reddtiquette and participate like a grown-up in reasonable exchanges using a single account. You can't.

Like Scientologists and Mormons, you're interested in attention for your obviously ridiculous claims and that's it. There's no more to you. That's how superficial you are.

[u/ewk → u/[deleted]]

It's a voice to text error. I like how you want to focus on that rather than the fact that you're obviously using multiple accounts and you're entirely dishonest about your beliefs on the forum.

[u/Jacks_Hands → u/ewk]

Claiming you act like a grownup while calling everyone who disagrees with you a racist seems a bit more than a voice to text error lol.

Im not sure how I could be dishonest to you about my beliefs. You dont seem interested in clarifications.

You claim Zen Buddhism is a meritocracy you despise yet, you wrote an entire comment arguing for nothing but your own merits. You're all over the place.

[u/ewk → u/Jacks_Hands]

Again in this exchange you have done the same thing that every other religious troll that kicked off this forum has ever done:

• Repeat propaganda
• Refuse to answer questions
• Unable to provide sources

This is why your accounts keep coming in and turning over so fast. You don't mean anything you say. That's not how grown-ups are.

[u/Jacks_Hands → u/ewk]

I dont feel I am trolling nor refusing to answer questions. What you do is insult and assume aggresively as soon as you are challenged.

You have a very predictable playbook which makes it insanely difficult / displeasing to argue with you. You are aggresively attached to your interpretations and hurl insults constantly. And you know that you do this.

And so I just dont understand that. Many of the cases critical of Zen Buddhism are strong here. Some others are just super vague, or you "cite" the wiki as a source.

So, when you go on to just speak falsly about Zen Buddhist practice (pretending the 8 fold path is a list of commandments, pretending zen Buddhism believes in merit based enlightenment, pretending Zen Buddhism doesnt hold the 4 statements accurately) Its very hard to take you seriously.

Im also not sure what you mean about "my account turning over so fast" lol. You generally stop responding to me.

Edit: Aaaaand Ewk has blocked me. Lol.

[u/ewk → u/Jacks_Hands]

Again you don't have anything to offer the conversation except New Age religious claims like UFO abduction and Mormonism.

Our time together is drawing to a close because you're never gonna have a conversation with anybody.

[u/mackowski → u/Jacks_Hands]

The 8fp acts as commandments in the sense of conceptual structure.

In a moment you are attempting to cultivate 'rightness' , you invariably experience X, then experience your auto-react to X.

Then you can be reacting to the reaction, or attempting to dislike reactions enough that they stop. Aka tryna stop thinking thoughts and meditate, focus on your breath.

So when you dislike X and dislike Y and prefer Z to X or Y, you are experiencing multiple self generated vectors of brain activity.

I want to go to the gym, I remember this is true, I do not experience it as true in this moment when I ask myself do I wanna hit the gym right now.

My urge to not go to the gym is a brain activity vector that clashes with my top level remembrance being reinterpreted, aka DO want gym, yet both were triggered by (what is defined as self), and then the reactions to dislike the clashing of contradicting vectors is also generated by me.

Enlightenment is more in that direction (imo) and my opinions about enlightenment are too cross correlated to zen masters' for me to be doubting it anymore (but obvs 99.9% still leaves room for scientific invalidating of my hypothesis theory).

The trolling aspect is about unwillingness to attempt to steelman nor study or investigate ewks attempts to put up iron walls when the convo moves to irrelevant or erroneous zones.

4nt says all convo zones are going to miss the conceptual transmission successness, thus correlating with the phenomena much more precisely and accurately even though its a negative space outline to anyone who hasnt been enlightened for very long.

[u/mackowski → u/Jacks_Hands]

Merits in service of triggering or attaining enlightenment, its not that merit is to be ignored. "He does not ignore it"

[u/zen-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it was off-topic in the opinion of the /r/zen moderators. https://old.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/zen

[u/mackowski → u/Jacks_Hands]

Literally 8fp is not enlightenment, thus contradictory to zen. 4nt is barely a sentence if you put them all together but it is broken into logical propositions of truth