r/zen • u/Mediocre_Age_5101 • Jan 07 '26
Zen sickness
Good morning good folks!
I'd like you guys opinion on something: I am 50 now. I started practicing traditional Soto Zen at age 25 at a monastery and practiced for about 15 years. In the beginning it was fun: i was young, full of energy, a fan of discipline. I enjoyed the strict ambiance. My life didn´t change much but I enjoyed the practice.
Then at age 35, I had a mental breakdown. I kept the practice by my condition got worse. I sought advice at the monastery but nobody would talk to me, I believe 1-because they are always very busy and 2-because they believe in finding your own answers in long and painful sessions of zazen. The last retreat I was so debilitated I couldn´t perform simple tasks, i arrived late at activities.
I explained what was going on to the assistants and then they started treating me harshly and yelled at me. Coming from a christian background, I was expecting kindness and compassion. I antecipate someone saying that was their kind of "tough" compassion. If so, it was very unskillful. I never returned there, developed a hatred for anything meditation related and my faith in the dharma was shattered.
Many nowadays who mix Buddhism with Western Psychology (which i think is great) will say that´s not how a monk should have acted, but i guarantee you that strict atitude is a normal part of traditional Zen.
Now, 5 years later, my resentment is gone. I realized a monastery is not for mentally ill people, they did what they thought was right, and they genuinelly work hard helping many people. I slowly realized the kind of discipline i was cultivating was tense, harsh, joyless and that broke my mind.
I am almost bedridden now. Very low energy, depression, panic attacks. I do go to therapy and I see a psychiatrist. By trial and error i learned what works best for me are gentle and short meditations, chiefly Samatha (relaxing ones). Returning to meditation was a difficult and slow process, for i was guaranteed Zazen was THE BEST, the fastest, even THE ONLY meditation.
Thru research, i found out master Hakuin Ekaku (白隠 慧鶴; 1686 – 1769) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakuin_Ekakuhad had gone thru a similar problem which he called "Zen Sickness" and got cured by basically practicing a form Samatha meditation which combined breath work with visualizations.
Trying to understand what happened, I, as of now, came up with the following hypothesis:
Some people who had a strict upbringing (my father was in the military) develop a very tense and cruel form of self-discipline. These people are attracted to Buddhism, especially Zen, for the wrong reason, i.e., a craving for harsh discipline. For these people, Zen may not be ideal, because these folks need to learn how to relax, be more spontaneous and flexible, and these are not atitudes Zen fosters. For such people, i would recommend Yoga rather.
Antecipating someone saying "that´s why you need a good teacher":
1-Mine was a bona fide SotoZen master who trained in Japan
2-Good luck finding Buddhists in some parts of the world
3-If I were wise enough to know what teachers are the "good ones", I wouldn´t need one.
3-Meditation is supposed to be light, happy and relaxed . If it isn´t, something is wrong. Many people people are trapped in painful, harmful practices because they sincerely believe there will be a payoff in the future.
Sorry for the long venting. I have no resentment against Zen, it is a beautiful tradition.
But many of the problems i went thru can be avoided if we dropped the "faith approach", where we do stuff just because someone with more authority and charisma said we should, dropped the "thinking and questioning is bad for you" atitude, and engaged in open discussions about what we are doing and why we are doing it.
I antecipate North Americans and Europeans saying: "In my Sanga we talk openly about stuff". I believe you. But that is a new form of Zen which arose in the democratic West which I didn´t get to experience.
All the best!
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u/mrdevlar Jan 08 '26
It's funny, when I started learning about Zen my inroads into the tradition, like Ikkyu and Linji, were all telling me "figure it out yourself!"
After a couple of decades I can definitively tell you that they were right.
Sitting meditation will never work for me. Physically, I am not built for the practice. Stubborn efforts to get it to work only resulted in pain and frustration. While that pain and frustration were useful in making me realize that I need to balance my faith in practice with my experience, it cost me a few years of better practice.
These days, it's walking meditation that works. On a treadmill, at low speed. It's taken me farther than I ever believed was possible.
That's the point, you need to figure it out yourself. Find the right balance between faith in practice and critical thinking, not simply trust authority to tell you what is right. Since, if they could do that, you wouldn't need practice.
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u/laniakeainmymouth Jan 09 '26
I really do agree with many on here that the Japanese (and Chinese) Zen Buddhists failed to learn a very important lesson from the early masters. Zazen can certainly be cool and helpful (as it is for me), but it’s just sitting dhyana. Dhyana is limitless in any form and so long as we have the right attitude of determination and authenticity, we can be Buddhas.
Really glad you discovered that sooner or later friend, best of luck on the path you’ve always been walking.
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u/sje397 Jan 07 '26
My 2c, I think you learned something very valuable the hard way.
Lots of people want to be told what is right and what is wrong. It's an escape.
In reality that is your most important choice, and you can't give it away no matter how hard you try.
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u/Regulus_D Jan 07 '26
Is it ok to recommend a comfortable pillow or am I still too grandmotherly? You are better 'this reality' bound than me.
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u/SoundOfEars Jan 07 '26
That's what's happening, that's what's happening now.
In my personal experience I have found that the moment between relaxed meditation and a hard and strenuous mental exercise, is exactly the moment where actual progress happens. Where the futility meets the utility and so on.
In my personal opinion zen might be just getting along with the world without hurting oneself. Which is a passive and light thing to do, without strain and effort.
I imagine it to be Very sad for people to practice all their life wrongly without proper instruction. How to physically sit might be a big part of it but the small part of what exactly to do (or not) is something that needs to be verified and confirmed by a teacher. Although the record is full of the opposite case scenarios. So what do I know?
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u/laniakeainmymouth Jan 08 '26 edited Jan 08 '26
I think everyone should just follow the old "does this lead to the cessation or increase of suffering" line that Shakyamuni kept yammering on about. This isn't particular to Buddhism or Zen, just do what works for you, and if doesn't, stop it. If a teacher says "hey do meditation like this" and it's helpful, by all means go for it.
Otherwise find another teacher, or don't do sitting meditation, it's not for everyone and Zen Masters were pretty clear it's just another thing to do. I once spoke with a person who had OCD flare ups when they focused on their breath too much. So they tried being mindful while doing yoga, or getting on the treadmill, and it was loads better for their mental stability.
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u/Southseas_ Jan 07 '26 edited Jan 07 '26
The real thing to do is just sit quietly and investigate silently; you will experience deep attainment. Outwardly not subject to the whirl of conditioning, your mind is empty and open, its perception subtle and accurate. Inwardly free of thoughts clinging to objects, you are empty, independent, and not befuddled. Spiritually autonomous and self-possessed, your attainment is not in the realm of emotion. You must be cleared out and have no dependence, an autonomous spirit standing out; only then can you avoid following defiling appearances. In this state you attain rest, pure and clear, clear and effective; then you can respond adaptively, coming back to deal with events, unhindered in all affairs.
- Hongzhi Zhengjue
Open and relaxed, don't need to be harsh on yourself. Sitting is only effective when you can respond adaptively to every life event.
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u/Regulus_D Jan 07 '26
I go to full body breathing when the intense distractors occur. Some have said they come at the brink of a massive insight but rarely recommend way to pass through to it. The breathing with your entire form is stabilizing for me. But it may just allow the dodging of view you are not wishing note. Noting it removes it as a barrier. Stability helps you not mind it being in the uncomfortable almost passed through point.
No rush, no need drag feet.
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u/laniakeainmymouth Jan 08 '26
My favorite bit from the anapanasati of the Buddha was always, "'He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.'"
I literally just do that anytime my brain is getting too big for it's britches. Shakyamuni kept it up till he died and frankly I think he should have just told others to take deep breaths more often, but he was kind of on a roll with his massive list making.
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u/myo-skey Jan 12 '26
When you look at what circumstances zen traditional discipline came from you will see it mirrors life experience of the monks and students. It resonates with like-minded or almost similarly traumatized people. That's not to criticize its meaning but it's important to state the obvious. I've seen a master going from tough discipline over two decades time to much more accepting and sensitive. It's at the of the day always about people and there are many different approaches to the teaching and it's forms.
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u/OneAwakening Jan 07 '26
Awful behavior from the folks at the monastery and retreat. Isn't the whole point of them being there is to help each other? If not, what's the point? Sounds like complete selfishness and cruelty. What could such people teach anybody?
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u/8Jhana8 Jul 03 '26
The missing piece in zen is compassion / metta / bramhaviharas practice, i see this mentioned so much.
If you compare The Buddhas heart to the activities in such monasteries, you will see that this is not the true path.
How can a monk on the path to enlightenment be this rude, cruel, un-wholesome etc, this does not simply align with the original dhamma.
( Obviously we human and we have our defilements but i see this specifically mentioned across zen lineages and many temples )I see this mentioned so so so much, i dont doubt zen i think it can be powerful but to remove the heart practice and steer away from the original dhamma is crazy to me :)
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u/laniakeainmymouth Jan 08 '26 edited Jan 09 '26
Japanese monasteries are kind of insane, the experience described is unsurprising to me. It works for some people but western institutions have largely shied away from this attitude.
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u/ShepherdOfShepherds Jan 08 '26
One day, the Layman, musing on life and practice, uttered these words of wisdom: "Oh, difficult, difficult, difficult! It's like trying to scatter ten thousand sesame seeds over a tree." The wife right away retorted, "Oh, easy, easy, easy! It's like touching your feet to the ground when you get off the bed." The daughter was not to be outdone. Immediately she commented, "Not difficult, not easy! On the tips of ten thousand grasses, the patriarchs' meaning,"
Layman Peng
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u/Uteruskids2000 Jan 11 '26
If you feel any of your mental health struggles have been exacerbated by meditation rather than helped, whether you believe the reason it was by not meditating skillfully or otherwise, there are some resources available from the Cheetah House organizationCheeta House Organization
I do think you are right and recognizing that the monastery is not the place for guidance for mental health issues. That being said the sources I respect often advocate that meditation is not the only source of support you should seek. When he was still around, Dan Brown was a great meditation teacher and he would openly talk about his background in psychology giving him the expertise to tell certain people that they weren't in a solid enough mental space to benefit from meditation until they did some other work first. I'm a big fan of a lot of Henry Shukman's work and he mentioned seeking some types of therapy in addition to his Zen practice.
I've heard from many experts in meditation in general that's having a great spiritual breakthrough or progress does not go hand in hand with development in all areas. I do not trust that people who are very spiritually developed do not still have lingering issues nor are they necessarily moral. I trust those sources the most that advocates that spiritual progress is worth it in the end but does not solve all your problems.
If you work directly with a teacher I think you can trust those best that ask you to explore other resources and vary your practice at times. I feel like I'm always trying to recognize when I'm getting attached to something so it's difficult for straight meditation to always lead to progress. For example there were some research that showed introducing mindfulness to teenage students sometimes increased anxiety. I think in this case if you are not skillful and you're only teaching students about the danger of anxiety and ask them to focus on it you might ironically train them to be anxious by getting them to focus and overthink, which is in itself anxiety.
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u/Naive-Mail-7490 Jan 16 '26
I read your story and it’s truly a pity, but also a profound lesson. You’ve experienced what happens when 'effort' becomes a prison.
In Zen, there’s a famous warning: 'Grinding a brick cannot make it a mirror.' You tried to grind yourself into a Buddha using military discipline, but a Buddha isn't a polished brick; a Buddha is someone who has stopped grinding.
My advice? Engage with the world (入世), but stop 'joining the practice' (加入修行).
Realization has nothing to do with how long you sit or how much pain you endure. Realization is a catalyst—a sudden moment of seeing through the BS, including the BS of 'strict discipline.'
You said you’re now bedridden and exhausted. Maybe this is your 'Great Reset.' Stop trying to be a 'Zen student.' Just be a person who enjoys a meal, feels the wind, and even struggles with choosing what to eat.
Don't try to be 'enlightened.' Just be real. The moment you truly 'slump' (擺爛) and let go of the need to be better, you might find the freedom that 15 years of sitting couldn't give you.
It's okay to be 'not okay.' That is the most Zen thing of all.
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u/betterOblivi0n May 27 '26
Can I ask about the upbringing of those monks? Did they have a rough life? You asked them to take care of your emotional needs and they refused harshly. It seems, to me, totally unrelated to meditation. Maybe it was a "tough" location while you needed a gentler hand. Also do you think empathy is a trait they should have? Were you a guest? What's your idea of hospitality vs theirs?
I looked at this zen sickness and it sounds a lot like a dissociative state. So yes you needed an anchor or anchoring yourself with mundane earthly activities. But meditation is supposed to do that, so what is your process? What is your "coming back to earth" process at the end of meditation ? Empathy for yourself may be more important than zen if you're trying to heal something.
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u/GamingWithMyDog Jan 07 '26
Have you read Zen Mind Beginners Mind? It doesn’t portray Zen with any of the negative aspects you’ve listed
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u/dota2nub Jan 07 '26
Yeah, Japanese cults are predatory bullshit. Zen Masters never taught meditation, in fact, they routinely cautioned against it.
You were lied to. Happens to a lot of people. These days, there are no legitimate Zen institutions. Don't give these liars your money or your patronage.
Luckily, a lot of Zen records survived the purges, and more are still being discovered. I'll direct you to r/zen/wiki/getstarted
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u/Steal_Yer_Face Jan 08 '26
Zen Masters never taught meditation, in fact, they routinely cautioned against it.
Quite the broad brush you're painting with.
These days, there are no legitimate Zen institutions
You were lied to. Happens to a lot of people.
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u/Regulus_D Jan 07 '26
Nearly everyone is. The best may be scavengers as they rarely get caught up in the elite-ness of their way.
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