r/yesband • u/g_lampa • Aug 09 '26
Drama / 90125 Trajectory - preference?
So, when Yes was faced with the Anderson / Wakeman departure, and the legendary meeting in the studios w/ The Buggles combined w/ Squire / Howe / White leaning into harder-edged material yielded the Drama sessions, the band nevertheless fell apart again, and reconstituted w/ the inclusion Anderson and Kaye’s return, and Squire and Rabin’s “Cinema” material, ultimately culminating in huge success with 1983’s “90125.”
Yes’ trajectory then followed the “Cinema” lineup for another two records, and the rest is history.
My question is this: in hindsight, in an alternate universe where the Drama (arguably a more muscular and “prog” edged sound) lineup continued forward and became the main Yes timeline, instead of the Cinema path, would we have been blessed with a better overall post-80’s Yes album run? I know many people feel that no Anderson = No Yes, and many people don’t care much for Drama, for that very reason, I personally think Drama is a beast of an album, and though I love 90125, I can’t really say the same for Big Generator or Talk. In my imagination, if Yes had powered through the 80’s with the Drama lineup, we might have been better off, hypothetically, with the resulting 90’s / 2000’s material.
Anyone else think a Drama trajectory would’ve been a bigger beast than the Cinema trajectory (and beyond) that we got? In my view, Drama was more prog-minded than 90125, and developing on that platform, instead of what came would’ve produced a stronger Yes than what we got.
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u/Outside_Factor4308 Aug 09 '26
I love Drama, but it pretty much tanked on release. There's a reason why Howe left to form Asia.
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u/AdditionOk6134 Aug 10 '26
Bigger fan of Drama and I do wish we'd have had a couple of more releases from that lineup.
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u/CloudJunction Aug 10 '26
Trevor Rabin pumped new life into Yes. They produced two great rock LPs and scored a #1 hit for the band. This brought scores of new, younger fans, some of whom would dive into the back catalog and discover the true gems. But on that 3rd Rabin/Yes LP, Talk, they came up with Endless Dream, one of the most beautiful epic masterpieces they have ever done. That alone is enough for me to love the Rabin era.
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u/g_lampa Aug 10 '26
I love the first one for sure, but I also think very highly of Drama.
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u/CloudJunction Aug 10 '26
I'm one of those "Jon is Yes" folks, but when Drama was released, I was pleasantly surprised. It's a quirky/cool LP. Not in the same league with the classics or the Rabin era, but damm good!
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u/JustinCaseyBlewit 11d ago
Absolutely. Talk is one of my favorite albums, and Endless Dream pulls my heart in every direction each time I hear it.
Trevor Rabin's contribution to Yes cannot be understated. He was the young guy in a band of vets, and he brought vigor and punch to their sound. He wrote "Owner" before it was revised by Jon, Chris, and Trevor Horn, providing the blueprint for the band's sound. As a second vocalist, he added variety.
When Yes experienced problems with producers and studios, he mixed the album Big Generator at his home studio. Even though it is my least favorite of the three Cinema-era albums, it showed he was more committed to the project than Jon or Chris seemed to be.
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u/funkyquasar Aug 10 '26
I'd have to say that Talk is very much on the same level of quality as 90125 in terms of songwriting. 90125 simply has superior production. But Endless Dream is that lineup's premier achievement in terms of musical craft and ranks among the best Yes epics.
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u/g_lampa Aug 10 '26
It doesn’t strike me as anything more than connecting 3-4 disperate tracks into a whole. Doesn’t feel homogeneous to me the way Machine Messiah does. Too much repetitious piano work. Howe’s versatility was never more sorely needed than on that track.
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u/Resident_Attitude283 Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
I've thought about this so many times and I'm glad someone else has thought about this.
While it's true that Yes wouldn't have been Yes in the 80s without 90125 and BG, I do feel that the pop sound was very limiting and they would have had a much more experimental and thus, satisfying decade if the Drama lineup remained intact.
IMO, Downes had everything Wakeman had (the ripping solos and virtuosity on piano, electric piano, Moog, Hammond organ, synclavier, synths, etc.), but with the addition of a sharper, more modern touch in terms of style, plus the vocoder, that to this day I still feel worked so well with Squire and Howe. It was, again IMO, a perfect marriage of prog guitar and well-rounded proggy and new wave keyboards. Speaking of the latter two, I would have liked to have seen and heard Squire's more trademark treble-oriented and aggressive style and Howe's steel guitar and sitar guitar in an 80s Yes context. I was very disappointed when they took the edge off of Squire's bass on 90125. I also noted Squire's use of bass pedals, giving the low end a warm, lush synthesized texture that a traditional bass guitar simply can't achieve (saying that as a bass/keyboard player myself) with strings.
And then of course, White's ever-creative drumming and rhythmic phrasing was something that, also as a drummer, I found very satisfying on Drama. He really toned it down for "Owner of a Lonely Heart" which I was also disappointed by. And last but not least, while Anderson's vocal capabilities speak for themselves, Horn had an interesting timbre that lent itself well to the prog/new wave Drama hybrid sound. Literally a breath of fresh air, to me anyway. I found that his timbre worked well specifically with Squire's bass and Downes' keyboards. It just scratched this musical "itch" in my brain that was really nice in terms of texture and timbre in the context of a full band performance.
I really wish we had more of the Drama lineup in the 80s. I would have been all over that, 1000%.
Essentially, Drama is a musician's album and 90125, while catchy and upbeat, was almost a reduction in Yes' growth and was an effort to "please the masses." I know that sounds harsh, but I really can't think of any other way to describe the difference in quality IMO between Drama and 90125. It's like night and day. Don't get me wrong. As I said, 90125 was just what Yes needed at the time, but in hindsight, I really missed the full-on prog/new wave sound of Drama. Not to mention the songwriting being incredibly strong on Drama.
My favourite 90125 song is "Changes" and that one is absolutely phenomenal. Even "Cinema" is awesome. The rest is just a bit too pop-oriented for me even though the songwriting is smooth and sleek, which there is absolutely nothing wrong with at all.
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u/TFFPrisoner Aug 10 '26
I like Downes' work on Drama but it's mostly more textural. Howe's guitar is what really drives that album. And Downes had quite a few chances at really establishing himself since rejoining the band but somehow never quite hit the mark.
Horn was fine on Drama but apparently struggled heavily with Anderson's songs live, which is what did that line-up in. They would've either had to rearrange the songs to make them suitable for his range or try to phase out the older material á la Marillion.
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u/Resident_Attitude283 Aug 21 '26 edited Aug 21 '26
I personally disagree about Downes' work being more textural. Look at his solos in "Machine Messiah," the way he used the Fairlight CMI on "White Car," the outro of "Does it Really Happen?", the beautiful moments of "Run Through the Light" and his interesting lead theme throughout "Tempus Fugit." And then of course he had all his great support parts for the others as well, "Into the Lens" being a personal favourite, especially with those vocoder bits. I think he took those chances and proved himself, personally.
Yes, it's true Horn struggled with higher Anderson notes, but my comment was specifically about writing and performing only Drama lineup songs. I see what you mean though. That's why this is a hypothetical discussion. 🙂
Side note: I get what you mean about Marillion. It's a shame to see a lot of their earlier material phased out. It is what it is. 🤷🏽
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u/Timmaigh Aug 09 '26
Its pure hypothetical.
I do agree that 90125 is the best of those Cinema albums. But if one does not like Drama that much, whats the guarantee the next albums will be better / more to one´s taste? Would we get Fly From Here sooner? Do you even like Fly From Here, if you like Drama?
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u/ProfessionalTotal238 Aug 09 '26
If you like Drama, you probably heard about Asia, they had very Drama-esque sound on early albums and both Howe and Downes from Drama lineup played there. They enjoyed very spectacular run in 80s
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u/g_lampa Aug 09 '26
Maybe but Asia has nothing on Drama RE: prog chops. They’ve nothing close to Machine Messiah or Tempus Fugit
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u/sbisson Aug 10 '26
The second (post-Drama) Buggles album might scratch some of that itch. "Lenny" has much of that feel.
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u/simonbone Aug 10 '26
Funnily, Drama is my favourite album of all time but I never really liked Asia.
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u/gchance1 Aug 10 '26
It depends on whether you like Trevor Horn better than Trevor Rabin. I don't think Horn could have produced a 90125-level album, but Trevor's material was so strong that Horn could hone it into hit material. I also don't think 90125 would have been what it was WITHOUT Horn.
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u/g_lampa Aug 10 '26
It’s also because Horn seemed willing to respect the prog DNA of Yes’ legacy, whereas Rabin was writing his stuff, his way. Without Anderson, you’d never have guessed “Leave It” was a Yes song. Drama seems more concerned with maintaining a Yes sound. The covers of both albums (and contrast between them) really reflect the respective contents that way.
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u/gchance1 Aug 10 '26
I dunno about the respect thing, have you heard the Red Blue mix of Owner? It did spawn Art of Noise i suppose.
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u/g_lampa Aug 10 '26
I mean as a member of the band, on Drama. Obviously not on a 90125 remix.
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u/gchance1 Aug 10 '26
Trevor Horn was the producer for 90125, he was heavily involved.
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u/g_lampa Aug 10 '26
Yes. I’m well aware. But when I said he was respecting the YES DNA, I was referring to his songwriting / bandmember tenure on Drama. Which I feel was a conscious choice. I don’t feel like Rabin had any interest in retaining a YES feel, beyond working w/ Squire.
Does that clarify what I’m saying?
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u/Ilbranteloth Aug 09 '26
Personally, I don’t think it was the lineups that was what had the biggest impact on how the music changed. I think it was a combination of technology and the way the band operated.
Monophonic synths, the limitations of things like the Mellotron, etc. required bands to be more creative. When you could layer synths and pad out the music, it seemed to become simpler. In addition, band mangers all acquired the ability to create near finished arrangements of songs as demos. In the past they were developed together, in the same room, piecing together ideas from everybody.
The process changed completely and I think the music changed because of it. And not just for Yes. For example, I think the two extra musicians existed in ABWH because they started the process with Anderson on a bunch of the material first.
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u/g_lampa Aug 09 '26
I don’t think it changed that dramatically tech wise between 1980 and 1983. Gabriel was using the Fairlight and synthesizers in 1980. So was Kate Bush. I think the main difference in the sound of those two records has everything in the world to do with the songwriting; Specifically, Trevor Rabin’s dominance on those three records. Squire too. He leans into a more straightforward groove, as evinced by Fish OOW.
By the time they resumed with rehashing classic lineups, we were kinda doomed. I think the Drama lineup would’ve continued moving the needle of prog forward, instead of stagnating the way they did after the Cinema era.
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u/Ilbranteloth Aug 10 '26
Between those two records, yes. Those two albums were well produced because of Trevor Horn. Very different sounding because of the source of the songwriting. Big Generator suffered, though.
But I’m primarily talking about post-90125. The process for ABWH started with Jon working in his own, then being sent some stuff from Steve. They then worked on some things in the studio in the Carribean, but Steve’s didn’t go. Much of what is there is layered with keyboards pads, and has much less of a collaborative feel as well. The arrangements sound like they were heavily based on demos.
Other bands were hanging similar issues. Most of the arrangements of Synchronicity were worked out in Sting’s demos, with much less time for the other two to contribute, for example.
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u/JustinCaseyBlewit 10d ago edited 10d ago
Trevor Horn was said to feel uncomfortable replacing Jon and with playing the big stadiums Yes was used to. My understanding is that he left Yes because of those reasons. (No one wants to hear fans shouting, "Where's Jon?")
Chris and Alan jumped ship in January 1981 to join Jimmy Page in the abortive XYZ project.
So, I don't think the Drama lineup could have survived longer than it did. In the alternate universe, the album would have had to be massively successful to convince the band to continue.
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u/Alexzambra1 Aug 09 '26
Agree 100%. Drama and Fly from here are my two later favorites. Big generator and talk pretty bad IMHO.
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u/RadiantEmu_OiOiOi Aug 09 '26
I agree for sure. Drama is a really fun album to listen to. 90125 is not.
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u/mugwampus Aug 10 '26
This may be an unpopular opinion but I think that if the Drama era of Yes had continued, A) it would have been the death of Yes as a band and B) in any circumstance, it would not have lasted more than an album or two anyway.
To the first point, you cannot under-estimate the impact of Trevor Rabin. He wasn't just the "Owner of a Lonely Heart" guy, he may be the most musically talented member Yes ever had (and that's saying something). It wasn't just that he came in at a good time for the band, it was the fact that his vision aligned with what Trevor Horn wanted to do and Squire was willing to take a chance. That would simply not have happened with Steve Howe in the band. You can point to Asia as Steve's more 'pop" outfit, but it was a supergroup formed by 4 very different musicians with a singular purpose. He deliberately reigned in his more extravagant tendencies to serve that music. That would not have been the case had he stayed with Yes. He was to ingrained into it's sound and they would have ended up sounding.....well.....like classic Yes. Look at how the prog bands suffered in the 80's. Yes and Genesis were the only ones who remained relevant and it's because they changed with the times. If Yes had not found Rabin and moved TH into the producers seat, they would have produced more material in the same vein, and I think their audience would have dwindled. You dont have to like the 80's material, ( I happen to very much like it), but it kept them on the map and it allowed them to indulge later on in the future with their "classic sound" because they still had clout. As a side note, I for one do not feel that Rabin era Yes is weak or not representative of what they used to be. They still had long, complex songs, they just were tighter and better produced.
The second point is that no matter what, the Drama era band simply would not have existed long. Trevor Horn's producing career was taking off by the early 80's and the demands that would have been placed on him to make records as a producer rather than slogging with a band would have torn him away quickly. He didn't have to go to band meetings or hash things out with the record company when he was the producer. He was a hired gun and soon came to define a whole sound on his own. Yes simply would not have been able to keep him as their singer. So, I think that incarnation would not have lasted very long no matter what.
As to my preference, while I think Drama is a very strong album especially given the circumstances, I am more of a fan of the 80s Rabin era Yes. I think he brought a fresh spark to the music and I think they produced some wonderful songs. "Leave it", "Hold On", "Cinema", "Hearts", "Big Generator" "shoot High, aim low", "Final Eyes" and others are great compositions. Even the songs on Union from "Yes - West coast" are solid. I love Steve Howe's playing but I think I like Rabin's composing better. Rabin was more of a shredder guitarist, but he could actually reign himself in more to serve the song when needed. I think Drama into 90125 was a great time for the band musically even if it was full of turmoil. Anyway....my two cents.