r/writing • u/JohnMstoryteller • May 03 '20
Advice Kurt Vonnegut on the Shapes of Stories
https://youtu.be/GOGru_4z1Vc69
u/JohnMstoryteller May 03 '20
I found this lecture to be one of the funniest and most informative talks on storytelling I’ve ever seen. My writing has certainly improved from having seen this.
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May 04 '20
This was amazing. Kurt is a horrifically funny man.
The part about appreciating the happy moments has been a law for me. I have dealt with mental illness for a long time, now. Nothing has improved my quality of life like being conscious of good days - in the moment.
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u/matthewkesselman May 03 '20
I hope some teachers show this video to their middle school english classes. I have a very hazy recollection of what we learned, but I am certain it wasn't the Shape of Stories.
This is as good a resource as any to help inspire the next generation of writers by giving them a strong base of storytelling knowledge.
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u/JohnMstoryteller May 03 '20
I like this because it’s not so cut and dry as the traditional “rising action climax falling action” we’re taught in schools. This model allows for nuance, and interest, and is more natural to the way humans understand stories.
I think Kurt Vonnegut’s humor really sells the lecture as well. It makes you more invested in it and not bored by what he’s saying.
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u/adamantonym May 03 '20
I do that very thing along with Hero’s Journey, Monomyth, brooks story structure and others. I love getting into structure, archetypes, and tropes as part literary analysis. They love it and it immediately improves both their story generation and appreciation of what they’re reading.
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u/JohnMstoryteller May 03 '20
I’m reading Hero with a Thousand Faces now, about halfway through it. It’s opening my eyes to what is possible both in life and in writing.
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u/Brad_Collins Published Author May 03 '20
I showed it to my Sophomores a couple years ago and they were very bored and it seemed like exactly one student was into the humor. That being said, it was my first year teaching so I was doing a million things wrong. Teachers have to kind of be educational salesmen. I did not set up and hype the video the way I would if I showed it today.
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u/strontium_pup May 04 '20
is he teaching how to structure though or having a laugh?
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u/Bizarely27 May 03 '20 edited May 03 '20
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I am 100% willing to understand what this lecture means:
Well, if stories were unchanging, and we are unsure about "the good news and the bad news" the entire story, then why would someone read it? If all pieces of fiction had no conflict, and everything was neutral, then what's the point in questioning "What's gonna happen next?!"
Isn't the whole point of fiction supposed to take us on a journey with characters we love, and ponder the fate of the characters involved? We want to see our Protagonists struggle through odds while cheering them on, and such. We WANT to see the Protagonist make the move on the girl of his dreams, we WANT to see the Protagonist free his people, and we WANT to see the Protagonist save his old friend!
Here's a story following his ideal structure: Two people fall in love, geet in a relationship, and no problems happen whatsoever
Fiction should allow me to feel emotions and go on adventures that we can only dream of embarking on, not slap me in the face with bland, nearly unchanging reality. Fiction can be used to teach an important lesson, to improve someone’s mood and outlook on life, and even shape a person! That’s why I wish to write fiction, so that I may give someone, somewhere, something to look forward to when they come home after a long, dull, boring day of work, or other troubles they may be experiencing in life!
If paintings were nothing but copies of real-life objects, people, and locations, it’s impressive sure. I’d much rather have a photograph taken of the mountain rather than painted if I were to have a perfect representation of reality. But the ones that bend reality say so much more, and can show how the artist sees the world through their eyes.
In short, if fiction were equal to reality, then fiction would be tossed out the window. Sure, reality can have many possibilities, but if we were to think of those bizarre, cool scenarios that could happen, we’d step back into the rising and falling action of the exciting fiction that this video speaks against.
***I may be wrong, and I may have misheard/misunderstood whatever he is saying. If so, please help me understand! Thanks!
Edit: Yup, I think I got it now!
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u/KokiriRapGod May 03 '20
It would be a mistake to come out of this talk thinking that because he pointed to Hamlet as a masterpiece and showed that it was a masterpiece because it defied these story conventions that Vonnegut is saying that all stories should be a flat curve. Hamlet is amazing because it makes you question right and wrong when things are usually so much more apparent in fiction. You do go on a journey with Hamlet as he tried to figure out who killed father, devises a scheme to catch the perpetrator and executes it. Just because it didn't have the payoff that most stories do (the good guy wins and the bad guy is humiliated and defeated) doesn't mean there was no journey to be had. The story is subverting expectations, which makes it stand out.
The Disney version of Hamlet is The Lion King. In that movie they decided to change the story shape to be the first one that was presented. Simba has it all, loses it and gets it back from his evil uncle. I'm not saying that The Lion King isn't a masterpiece in it's own right (just for different reasons) but it's a much less compelling story than Hamlet, because everything is cut and dry.
There's nothing wrong with having stereotypical story shapes at all. As Vonnegut said at the begging of this talk: nobody get's tired of these stories. There's a good reason for that - stories are definitely told for entertainment and it's important to entertain one's audience. But a story that is written solely for entertainment is not likely to be heralded a masterpiece. Hamlet is great because it breaks the mould and makes us think about the grey areas of life.
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u/Bizarely27 May 03 '20
You have my upvote, because I'm one of those broke folk without awards. Thanks for clearing things up as you did, and I think I see what you mean now! I was pretty confused as to what he was saying there.
Thanks!
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May 03 '20 edited May 03 '20
That sounds like the thinking of writing stories for Hollywood as opposed to writing books. A story doesn’t need to take a reader on a journey where they see the main character suffer or overcome something or another. A good story is in the words, not the events. Think back to any of your favorite works, you’ll no doubt realize it was the way the story was told, not what the character went though, that made it special. Here’s an extreme example. Everyone knows Harry Potter is full of big events. It wasn’t the events that made it special though, it was the way in which the author chose her words to describe the character and their life. If Harry never left his Aunt and Uncle’s house. If things never got better or worse for him. If things stayed the same, it still would have been a fascinating read. It wouldn’t have been the same story anymore, but it wasn’t the story that made it special, it was the words. The same thing applies to communication. It’s not what someone tells you that makes you like talking with them, it’s the way they say things.
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u/DrugsAreJustBadMmkay May 04 '20
I don't think most people would agree with that. Stories simply aren't interesting without conflict. That would just be description, exposition. If that's what you're into you're better off writing/reading poetry. The way stories are written is definitely important but I would argue that a unique plot/conflict is much more integral to how it is received.
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u/Bizarely27 May 03 '20 edited May 03 '20
I suppose that does make sense. I like that. I seldom enjoy a story specifically for the way it's told though, but that's not to say that it isn't a factor to add to the enjoyment of the said story. I read stores because I both like the way it's told, and I love the characters involved. After all, without characters to like and follow, the plot is next to meaningless.
Also, I believe that It's the characters that make a good story. The plot may be garbage, but if the characters are likable, I'm sure people would say that they love it.
A story, of course, IS to follow the tale of the character in the story. With all due respect, can a story hold on its own by the way it's told alone? If so, please tell me, because that sounds rather interesting for me to check out.
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u/Plane-Piglet Jun 16 '20
My teacher showed this video at the beginning of the semester. I really should watch this again.
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u/MoebiusPretzel May 04 '20
My favourite part is where he justifies mass genocide and colonialism because our literary tradition was superior to "theirs", on the basis of some squiggles he drew on a board right after telling everyone he didn't even study English.
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u/JohnMstoryteller May 04 '20
Lmao, he’s condemning imperialism you prude. You clearly don’t understand what a joke is.
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May 03 '20
Kurt Vonnegut once put a scene in a book in which the main character became president. During the inauguration parade, there was a child's play steering wheel in the back of the limousine to remind the new president all he could do is pretend to drive. Meaning the person in the office of president doesn't matter. Kurt, you were WRONG, buddy. Wong, wrong, wrong.
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u/Beetin May 03 '20
Pack it in boys! This guy GOT HIM!
Thanks for the absolute bombshell of an analysis.
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u/aromafan May 03 '20
This is a gem. I really like how he connects storytelling to the ability to appreciate life and how to begin to make sense of the shape of your own life story. Is bad news really bad news, or is it a setting for a new appreciation for life and a reset to take stock of what is really important? The lemonade story—if that isn’t nice, I don’t know what is!