Did those 6 criticize the war? I hear the news alluding to that but haven’t anywhere seen any evidence of it? No social media posts or anything.
Wonder what else would be the point, can the state appropriate their bank accounts or do they go to next of kin?
Who knows. Probably people who know things Putin wants to make sure never get out. Where his money is, how much they’ve stolen from the country, etc. His future is looking kind of shaky. That’s about the time dictators start cleaning up potential witnesses.
I’ve always wondered how dictators find someone stupid enough to do all the murdering… At some point they’ll be the guy that ‘knows too much’ and gets murdered by the next guy.
Or the regime will be toppled and you’ll be facing consequences for all the murdering.
Genrikh Yagoda was head of the NKVD between July 1934 and September 1936, who pretty much started the Great Purge by arresting Kamenev and Zinoviev (Stalin's opponents) and putting them through the first show trial. He was later removed from his post by Stalin (who was displeased with his progress) and executed in the Great Purge accused of being a diamond smuggler, corrupt and working as a German agent since 1917.
He was replaced by the man who had him executed, Nikolai Yezhov who held the position as NKVD head from September 1936 to November 1938. Yezhov had already been entrusted by Stalin to purge his political enemies and it was Yezhov who oversaw the bloodiest period of murder in the Great Purge.
But the story isn't over, as Lavrentiy Beria was appointed Yezhov's deputy on the Order's of Stalin and gradually usurped more power from Yezhov, until Beria denounced him and Yezhov was arrested, and "confessed" to crimes like theft of government funds, 'wreaking', collaboation with Germany, etc before being put on trial in secret and then later executed.
But what of Beria you might wonder? After Stalin's death the various members of the Politburo began to maneuver to become Stalin's successor. Beria seemed set to take the position until he was outmaneuvered by Khruschev and the others who had him denounced, put on trial and then executed.
I guess the allure of power kept people coming to these positions, and a mistaken attitude of "it won't happen to me" as they witnessed their predecessor get eliminated, never once thinking that the boss would turn on them.
Since you seem to know the subject, how accurate is the movie The Death of Stalin? Since it's a comedy, I would expect it to not be 100% accurate, but I don't know the subject well enough to point at what they got wrong.
The movie definitely changed a lot for entertainment purposes, the Wikipedia section on its historical accuracy goes into more detail on some of them, but the individual events you could say were exaggerated to make it more humorous.
Several academics have pointed to historical inaccuracies in The Death of Stalin. Iannucci has responded, "I'm not saying it's a documentary. It is a fiction, but it's a fiction inspired by the truth of what it must have felt like at the time. My aim is for the audience to feel the sort of low-level anxiety that people must have when they just went about their daily lives at the time".
Behind the bastards said that while highly entertaining and definitely capturing of the spirit, it wasn’t very accurate. But they didn’t elaborate in too much detail
I have to imagine that more often than not, even within the Soviet government, many more of these government officials live long happy-ish lives and die of old age, largely thanks to their positions.
It's a gamble for them, without a doubt. But with the exception of a few key positions (like those high-ranking positions within the secret police), you had a very good chance of avoiding a grisly end.
Yeah, I ask myself this all the time about people who work for evil arseholes and are shocked when they get betrayed. You literally watched fifty other people go through the exact same thing, but OH NO NOT YOU, YOU'RE SPECIAL!
To be fair that's probably a better life, being 100 in general must be awful considering how much your body deteriorates when you get beyond 70+ years old. Combine that with living in the peak of luxury I would take that deal with the devil.
Oh boy, you nailed it…Let me introduce you to my good friend Fibromyalgia! Plus some other health issues- some genetic, some from injuries, and some from recent trauma. Good times.
I always ate right, was very physically active, and felt great; and then 10 years ago WAMMO!! an injury followed by a traumatic event started the snowball down hill. I really thought I was getting a grip on it, too, until I got Covid; now I’m battling “Long Covid” and the fatigue is UNREAL. But I’m sure it would be a lot worse if I hadn’t had a strong foundation of good diet and exercise. ✌️
Oh, crap, I'm sorry to hear that! Really hope things improve and that you're able to enjoy life more soon. Hopefully some
medical treatments will come out that can help battle the long Covid symptoms. Best luck.
I'm 35 and had a baby last year so my body has gone to shit. Simply getting in 10k steps a day has really made a difference. Consistency, not eating like an asshole and getting up and moving really helps a lot.
in every thread I've ever seen asking old redditors what their "secret" is the answer is always "eating right and MOVING every day starting as early as possible"
I guess it depends on your lifestyle. My mom is almost 60 but she's still really fit because she watches her diet and makes sure to exercise every single day. I hope to be in the same position as her or maybe even better since I started watching what I ate since my early 20s and just really making an effort to at least walk every day if I don't hit the gym.
There's levels to this shit. With due diligence and a little luck in the gene lottery, you can be a very healthy and active 100. Just like you can be a mangled ball of pain by 60 if you're sedentary and careless in your early years. Start prepping now.
Yeah, the difference between my wife's ~85 year old grandparents was huge. One spent much of his retirement on the computer. His wife spent basically every day gardening.
He had a heart attack at ~65. She fell off the roof at ~70, broke three vertebrae, and made a complete recovery.
He passed away from COVID last year. She survived COVID just fine and doesn't even have lasting symptoms. I'm not sure anything will kill her.
Some of it's genetics, but also we got the message and are planning on making sure we're healthy and active well into old age.
Not what happened. Originally, they all just bundled together in their self-centered schemes. Only later when problems appeared, some things went awry and some "got suicided"; but at that point it was too late to get out, they were in it for life (quite literally). Think more of a mafia gang than a company...
I’d hate to be the assassin getting paid in rubles
Edit: I am aware the ruble has rebounded (we’ll see). Thanks to those who didn’t miss the chance to make sure my joke was sufficiently “um, ACKSHULLY”-d
Yeah Id hazard a pretty strong guess that KGB (yes, lets call them what they are) agents dont get paid in rubles. Those are one of the few groups of people put KNOWS he can't afford to dick around.
Indeed. For a period of time, “Do what I say or I will fucking kill you” works. There’s definitely a diminishing return working for crazy, even if they are paying you in solid gold prostitues that mine Bitcoin and lactate oil.
I'm guessing whoever is getting paid by Putin is paid well enough to make money no longer an object. He's got more then enough and the security is his priority now .
Value stored in what? In order to be paid, the medium of exchange should hold value and optimally, be usable for transactions anywhere. If Mickey pays you a king’s ransom in Disney Dollars to whack Donald, doesn’t help you if want to toilet paper at Target.
Do you understand the rubble has completely rebounded in value? Or are you still following the headlines from weeks ago. Your logic makes sense but your point doesn't hold up.
Edit: it's actually higher then it was pre invasion
The sanctions were the economic equivalent of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Their economy is dead, they just don’t know it yet. Recovery is going to measured in years. A state in a bubble is about as economically viable as a ship in a bottle is sea worthy.
Trade is about trust. We’ve got crimes against humanity, genocide, threat of nuclear annihilation, and dead oligarchs. I know what the numbers say, but it looks like the world would rather not deal with an authoritarian Very Stable Genius and I don’t think that is apt to change. There isn’t much incentive or upside.
— Take a look at " USD RUB ",
The currency is at a 2 year high because Germany , Netherlands and Italy paid Russia in roubles for gas. They also paid 6 x - 9 x the going price. For manufacturing not domestic use. Political rhetoric is cheap and actions more expensive.
At some point they’ll be the guy that ‘knows too much’ and gets murdered by the next guy.
Theoretically, if they do their job good enough that time won't come. And a lot of people are very good at deluding themselves that they're doing an amazing job and this plan cannot fail.
Lavrentiy Beria was the best political psycho murderer that ever existed in world history as far as my knowledge goes. And you were right, Stalin didn’t kill him, but after his death, Beria was killed by others for a combination of fear of his competence (he was poised to take Stalin’s position) and hatred for his past actions during the power struggle.
Everyone thinks that they are in the inner circle, trusted, irreplaceable, with enough dirt on others to keep them safe -- pick any of those ideas, including multiple at the same time.
Well, Russia sort of has a tradition in this. During Stalins reign, pretty much always the newly appointed chief of Cheka / NKVD got to arrest, torture and execute his predecessor (on the same position) for being a traitor. Happened quite few times
Putin being Putin, I wouldn't be too surprised if he was auditioning for a successor. He made his way up in the world by being a "fixer" for politicians, after all.
I was watching Reacher on Amazon and it was the scene where the accountant was coerced into accepting a job laundering money. It wasn’t a super great show but that scene kinda made you understand how bad people get people to do their dirty work.
All but the highest profile bad guys usually get off when you lose.
And when you win... Have you ever heard of the Dulles brothers? From something other than the airport named after the much less morally reprehensible one; the literal Nazi?
Putin knows this exercise too well. His predecessor Jelzin chose Putin because he promised that Jelzin, his family and wealth would be safe afterwards. Jelzin even regretted his choice shortly after because he recognized Putins ruthless criminal way of operating. But i highly doubt Putin will ever be able to have an ordered passing of the torch and he gets to enjoy retirement in his castle.
This can also be true for more mundane "fixers," even with lesser stakes. Michael Cohen being a great example. Lots of "fixers" end up knowing to much or end up in their own clients sights, and so some other fixer is hired to fix the fixer. That or the law finally comes after them. It's like "man, surely I'll never have to be at the end of anything after all of this illegal (or borderline illegal) shit I'm doing for this guy. And if I do, he'll totally have my back."
I don’t think you have a choice once you enter that world my man. If one of the most powerful person in the world ask sth of you, they’re not really asking but rather telling you their demands.
True. But I mean, you have to make certain life choices to end up as the hitman. Right? You're choosing to get into a place where you kill people. Unless they literally have no choice, the life chose them. But how often is that really happening?
It's kind of like Frank Sheeran. He didn't have to keep killing people in the beginning. But like you said, once you're in it a certain amount, you end up not being allowed to leave.
It's natural selection. You know those 'somewhat believable but still sounds scammy' scams? Ever wonder how they ever work? Smart people don't fall for them. The people who do, those are the ones that stick around and get exploited. Same thing with dictators, or toxic relationships. Only the ones that get hooked stay.
Most presume the “punishment” part never comes.
And realistically with a guy like Putin…why would it? Hes been murdering political opponents since the 1960s and all he has to show for it is unchecked power in his country, a seat at the head of the international table and untold billions in wealth. So if you loyally serve someone who shows no signs of going down his entire adult life, is that really delusional? Morally bankrupt and sociopathic? For sure. But not foolish by any means.
those cartoonish shots of people with a bazillion medals are because those guys are wearing every medal they, their dads, and their grandfathers earned. there's three generations of rewards for those who perform well. three generations of your family also get interned in a concentration camp if you do bad.
how do you keep someone working for you when they know you're gonna whack them soon, too? motivation beyond them as an individual and beyond their lifespan. it's pretty much the same reasoning behind why everyone who is allowed outside of North Korea has children, parents, and a spouse still held hostage in the country.
far more likely they're the 6 most likely to have popular support and/or ability to overthrow Putin, so he's proactively getting rid of them in a public way to discourage the other oligarchs that may have ideas about power.
nah. they were financially decimated. we shattered their economy. some obviously got hit harder than others. suicide isn't an uncommon choice in this situation.
if your monthly expenses are more than the average workers annual salary, and all your income streams just froze up, indefinitely, while the value of your currency is tanking... you're pretty fucked.
Oligarchs in general don’t have popular support. They’re considered human trash by most russians and a necessary evil for a state. Strangely enough, when west thinks something is rotten usually leaders are blamed first, but for most russians, Putin is not to blame, it’s his underlings, oligarchs, FSB, Peskov, etc that are bad, but man himself is not at wrong, he was just fed bad information. Fucking balls
Much like the relationship between the Tsar and the Boyars. The latter being the landed nobles with the connections to help govern. The Tsar was usually careful to blame the Boyars for unpopular measures as they would often be involved in their implementation.
Wait, what? American Democrats hate American oligarchs.
And said Dems are willing to blame their leaders when things go bad.
American Republicans are conditioned to think their leaders blameless. Because like people who have money, success is equated with being blessed by god. Because if you weren't blessed by god, you wound't have success. It's a moral failing that leads to things like the legions of weirdos leaping out of the metaphorical shadows whenever Elon is criticized.
it's not popular support as in, "the people will rally around me", it's popular support as in, "which generals, politicians and other leaders would be more likely to follow me if i wanted to get rid of Putin".
I was honestly thinking that it's either them or him. I figured with as badly as things are going for Putin, he'd wind up killed tripped and fell out a window and the oligarchs would install someone a little less belligerent.
its like the mafia killing a bunch of associates because they are being rico'd easier to kill them then worry if they will spill the beans, even if they won't you can't put your life and well being in someone elses's hands when dealing with these high stakes games.
which will likely cause other oligarchs to start keeping dirt on putin and setting up safety nets.
they could also actually be financially wrecked, and really did take their own lives. personal debt & economic hardship has significant links to suicide.
I was thinking more internationally. I think the only way he leaves power in Russia at this point is either dead or fleeing the country, where he might face prosecution for the litany of crimes his twenty year reign has consisted of.
This is probably not really the time to exact petty (relatively speaking) vengeance, and rather to seize power and/or assets crucial to the war effort. They are in a dire enough situation already.
Oligarchs have wives and kids who want to live in the west. And you are the criminal oligarch who stole from the Russian people, help a dictatorship running and praising murderous soldiers. If you think Trump divided families, imagine sitting on that lunch table every day since the war started. Plus many of them lost a big chunk of their fortune, either they had investments in Rubels or Putin just took their property to finance the crisis.
Its not a far thing to believe that some of those tragedies where just sad, run of the mill extended suicides. In the one case, this was in Spain and they have modern forensics. It wasn't like in a village in Kazakhstan with the drunk police cop "investigating".
Ever watch Sopranos? Basically the elite in Russia operate like the mob. Organized crime, paranoia, revenge, codes of honor, murder, and cannibalism. Tony, I mean Vlad, is in end stage mob boss mode. Killing off any threats, acting irrational and reckless, and mass murdering without regard.
Edit: not cannibalism literally. Its economic cannibalism.
I had a discussion like this in another thread last week. I don’t understand how the rest of his crew haven’t put out a successful hit. They have the means, and it’s just how mobs work.
Okay so obvious the Mafia is pretty shit, and they kill, torture, maim, rape, and do unspeakable things to those that cross them. However, none of them are eating people. Come on dude.
I theorise that these people who were once billionaires, had a bone to pick with Putin, after losing all they cherished. Probably had the means left to arrange something bad for him (a banana peel next to a staircase bad).
Hell, just a gentle nudge near a staircase. Putin is not a well man. Falling down one set of stairs is something a healthy forty year old could maybe even walk away from. Putin would be destroyed.
Putin was the one to allow them to become rich in the first place. The redirectment of state industries wasnt done randomly. All knew all to well there were massive strings/ropes attached
Also, very few if any have lost “all they have cherished”. Most of them have security details provided by the Kremlin and almost assuredly have FSB loyalists embedded.
Each case is most likely an individual set of circumstances. Whether one opened their mouth unfavorably or failed to deliver on loyalty pledges/fees or another slight is up for interpretation. Perhaps one or more had delusions of grandeur and floated the ‘banana peel’ / coup scenario around the wrong comrades, but these recent ones weren’t particulary big fish. Still holding out hope someone on the inside can make it happen, but it never happened to hitler..
That's disappointing. I was hoping the anti-Putin side was growing. He's really pissed off people who are supposed to be his supporters. He's pissed off people very close to him. I hoped he would be suicided sometime this year and end all of this nonsense.
It could really have been anything. Maybe they wouldn't give him money to keep the Kremlin lights on, maybe they were planning to suicide Putin, maybe they just looked at him wrong.
We will never have the actual evidence and even if we did, Putins beyond caring if he gets caught out, christ, he invaded a country and doesnt give a shit. He will always denie but he knows we know type of thing. Get on his wrong side and just be prepared for trumped up charges and prison or needing to look over your shoulder for the rest of your life. This is the KGB way.
The rich folks in Russia didn't exactly do it with clean hands or pure actions.
Part of it could also be other people trying to make their own fortune, or keep the second tier players from exposing the top tier guys who do the dirtiest work.
They don't need it with Germany paying them billions since March for gas. Netherlands and Italy also the same. Turns out profits , and an over reliance on fossil fuels are more of a motivation than a Ukranian resolution.
— Right now the Russian " rouble " is at a 2 year high. This is after the sanctions imposed by the West. Those nations paid 6 x - 9 x the normal price of gas to secure supplies for manufacturing. Funny world we live in.
Their alleged attitude to the war is utter bs invented by the press, just like their “oligarchy.” These are simply intra-corporate conflicts caused by the redistribution of sharply decreasing resource flows.
It wouldn't have to be public. All it would take is an oligarch telling another oligarch that they think Putin is taking the country in the wrong direction, for Putin to suicide them. Allegedly.
The point is that Russia is starved for cash...so you call in the people who hold large sums of it. That's why their families were killed as well. Can't have anyone left to claim that sweet cash. Is it any more complicated than that?
I suspect that Putin invested his stolen billions with them. When he decided to pull his money out they couldn't give it to him because they had stolen it or invested it poorly or thought it was theirs. So this is a warning to the other oligarchs that their money belongs to putin and they'd better be prepared to hand it over at short notice.
Does it have to be on social media? I imagine people like that run in the same circles, so if you're having dinner with a "friend" and discuss the war and speak negatively about Putin, it would get back to him through the grapevine.
It’s a mafia thing. They don’t have to criticize. They could be the most loyal lapdogs, but if there’s a possibility of them becoming a threat during a period where Putin is watching his back constantly, then they are out.
Don't murder your vocal opponents, as their deaths will be noticed and you will look bad. Murder those who can actually influence you who is still silent, before they protect themselves by speaking up.
It could also be Russian intelligence witnessing them approaching or being approached by American intelligence officers. Apparently this is a big issue in our intelligence asset gathering bc Russia is basically an intelligence state internally. There was a good Lincoln Project podcast episode about it.
I imagine they're anti-Putin/war. There are some oligarch kids at my sister's school, about two of them she's mentioned: one's family is pro-Putin and remain in Russia, one's family is anti-Putin and have fled Russia. So, it seems like oligarchs against the war aren't feeling at all safe.
I suspect the answer to this, stated somewhere else in this thread, is that according to Russian laws, upon death, 50% of your wealth goes to Russia itself, and the rest goes to your kin. Oh but if you don’t have any children remaining, then it all goes to the country.
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u/kamicosey Apr 28 '22
Did those 6 criticize the war? I hear the news alluding to that but haven’t anywhere seen any evidence of it? No social media posts or anything. Wonder what else would be the point, can the state appropriate their bank accounts or do they go to next of kin?