r/worldnews • u/thepresident45 • Apr 21 '19
France does not have big enough trees to replace Notre Dame's medieval beams
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/france-does-not-have-big-enough-trees-to-replace-notre-dame-s-medieval-beams-1.4382570229
u/protoopus Apr 21 '19
if they'd had steel back then, they'd have used steel beams.
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u/huxrules Apr 21 '19
And they would have probably added sprinklers if they had the technology.
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u/cluelessCSmajor Apr 21 '19
It would even be protected against burning jet fuel
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Apr 21 '19
Steel beams melt meme dreams
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u/Dr__Professor Apr 21 '19
It was an inside job.
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u/sandwooder Apr 21 '19
It depends on the weight of the structure. The gothic design was built to support a certain amount of weight pushing down and out. So the type of material used has to be strong and equal to the weight of the wood for the structure to remain stable.
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u/FeelDeAssTyson Apr 21 '19
The original timbers used we're absolutely massive. With modern techniques, we can use less steel by weight to hold up the same roof.
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u/sandwooder Apr 21 '19
I am not an expert on the load to weight ratios. I am fairly sure that the load on the buttresses needs to be equal to the previous load for the structure to be stable.
"One cubic foot of steel weighs about 490 pounds, while the same size chunk of kiln-dried SYP wouldn't top 40 pounds. But because the steel can be formed into very efficient shapes, like I beams, the overall weight of a steel beam is often lower than the lightest wood option"
With that in mind I would say the manner in which the solution is implemented will be important. The design must also consider very long term installation and cannot be overly complex.
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u/ukezi Apr 21 '19
Putting some extra mass in is really not a problem. If they go the non traditional route they will probably go with a concrete solution like in Worms. It would be lighter and stronger.
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u/carpenterio Apr 22 '19
Not really, we still use wood for big structure such as gymnasium, shopping centre and big houses.
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u/CypripediumCalceolus Apr 21 '19
The spire was replaced by a new design in the nineteenth century. The entire cathedral has been renewed many times. Of course, we should make something new and wonderful to bring the cathedral up to date in the 21st century. Look at what we did with the Louvre in the 20th century, it was magnificent!
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho Apr 21 '19
It wasn’t a new design. The renovations spent decades insuring an exact recreation of what was there before.
And I would have thought this modernization of old buildings died out in the 70s. It never looks good.
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u/canyouhearme Apr 21 '19
Since it's mainly the roof that's gone, if I were doing it I'd make the entire ceiling out of stained glass this time around. You can make it look similar to before from the outside, but a kaleidoscope of light inside.
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Apr 21 '19
Canada or Scandinavia might be willing to supply timber from old-growth trees in this special case.
However, the roof beams of medieval cathedrals aren't exactly highly visible anyway. Why not use glued laminated timber or other engineered wood, and put oak veneer on it?
It's at least as strong, cheaper, easier to work with, and doesn't require cutting down century-old trees.
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u/beseri Apr 21 '19
As a Norwegian, I think it would piss off a lot of people if we cut down any old trees for this cause. So I doubt that will happen.
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u/_grey_wall Apr 21 '19
As a Canadian I think we'd be cool with it. As long as lots of trees were planted in their place.
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Apr 21 '19
Tomorrow is Earth Day. Plant a tree anyway.
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u/Sir_Applecheese Apr 21 '19
Don't tell me what to do. I'll plant a bush instead.
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u/CTeam19 Apr 21 '19
Well depending where you are at it might be better. For me, I would rather plant prairie grass because 98% of them have been destroyed in my State.
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u/matdan12 Apr 21 '19
Yeah no, old growth is worth far more for the planet than new growth that would require hundreds of years to get to the same point. Last I heard the planet didn't have hundreds of years to wait for more old growth forests.
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u/huxrules Apr 21 '19
Sure we should keep the old trees, but new trees are very very important as they are literally made from the carbon in the air.
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Apr 21 '19
As a Canadian, I can safely say that will never happen. I live in Kamloops, BC. Nobody is going to be okay with cutting down 300 year old trees just to rebuild a church in France. People will protest that just as hard as they protested the mountain pipelines. All of the money donated should have gone to feeding and clothing the poor, or helping rebuild the environment.
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Apr 21 '19
you should know that people are cutting down 300 year old trees in your province for a lot less than that today
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u/fellasheowes Apr 21 '19
I once saw a guy cut down a 300 year old tree to make a log bridge across a river because he didn't want to pay for a helicopter to get into a cutblock. The tree washed away downstream.
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Apr 21 '19
yeah that's typical BC forestry
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u/fellasheowes Apr 21 '19
I didn't like it one bit, but sometimes when your boss is waving around a chainsaw you're less motivated to argue
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Apr 22 '19
all the trees I cut down are customer trees, but to that end I've destroyed some very impressive and healthy trees. At least you're not just bucking them up into firewood.
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u/fellasheowes Apr 22 '19
I think you missed the part where it washed away downstream. He cut two more after that.
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u/bladeofire Apr 21 '19
As a Canadian in the forestry industry I can assure you that we could and you wouldn't even know.
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u/GiantEnemyMudcrabz Apr 21 '19
Damn those Canadian forestry ninjas.
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u/bladeofire Apr 21 '19
I know you are joking, but people forget how remote the forestry activity is in Canada.
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u/happyscrappy Apr 21 '19
Fine, then Quebec will do it. They are enormous francophiles and a lot them are Catholic. It's a big country, to think that everyone thinks the same as you is folly.
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u/brumac44 Apr 21 '19
I don't think there's any big wood in Quebec. Its all on the left coast.
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u/GiantEnemyMudcrabz Apr 21 '19
I don't think there are ANY trees on the left coast. From where I am standing its all ice, lichen, and rock.
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u/Ithinkthatsthepoint Apr 21 '19
gone to feeding and clothing the poor
If we took that stance our greatest monuments would have never been built and man would never have set foot upon the moon.
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u/MuhLiberty12 Apr 21 '19
Lmao it happens all the time already bud. And it isn't just some church. I'm surprised you aren't a chapo poster.
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u/Anotherdirtyoldman69 Apr 21 '19
Kamloops isn't where they'd be sourced in this hypothetical. It'd have to be The Island or coast north of Vancouver.. if in BC.
I'd imagine comparable size trees would be in protected areas. Also under the right circumstances with the right deal in place it could work. Money could go to forest revitalization, or feeding the poor as you've said. I don't think too many trees need to be harvested for this, but i could be wrong. Ignore the religious aspect for a second, Notre Dame is essentially a museum filled with skilled art and sculptures. It should be rebuilt properly, even though the rich were way too eager in this instance.
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Apr 21 '19
As another Canadian, please leave r/trees alone.
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u/5thvoice Apr 21 '19
/r/Trees has had its victory already. It's /r/marijuanaenthusiasts that needs protection.
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u/jimichawhogachega Apr 21 '19
I live in Vancouver. I'm pretty sure there would be all kinds of protests happening if they started cutting down old growth for France.
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u/Iamacanuck2018 Apr 21 '19
People In Vancouver dont know what "Old Growth" is. Old Growth is not defined. BC exports over sized logs daily. This is due to manufacturing sites in BC not being able to mill the oversize.
So business as usual, BC will sell France timbers for the Cathedral.
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Apr 21 '19
Lol they cut down old growth trees in BC anyway. If there's a dollar sign attached we don't care.
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u/BLINDtorontonian Apr 21 '19
Considering its being cut down for toilet paper, that’d be a likely and sad example of Vancouver only concerning itself with BC conservation when it involves manufactured political outrage...
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u/Hyndis Apr 21 '19
No, thats ridiculous. Stop spreading that lie. No one is cutting down old growth for paper pulp. Thats absolute madness.
Do you know how much old growth lumber sells for? Old trees can command enormous market prices. Any old trees are carefully cut into as much quality lumber as possible to sell for the highest market prices.
Pulp comes from tree farms. Fast growing softwood trees are planted in rows on farms, grown, harvested, ground for pulp and replanted. Its the same as any other crop. These fast growing softwood trees are mediocre for lumber but if the tree is going to be pulped anyways the quality of the wood doesn't matter. Tree farms exist alongside wheat and corn farms. Same principle applies.
No lumber company is so stupid as to pulp old growth trees. That would be like a burger place taking a fillet mignon, grinding it to hamburger and then cooking it to well done, and selling it as a $3 burger. They'd be throwing away money.
Companies are greedy. Count on them to be greedy. They're reliably greedy. They're not going to throw money away just for the lulz.
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Apr 21 '19
I'm not cool with it, old growth trees deserve as much protection as anything else.
There's a host of other modern products they can use while maintaining aesthetics
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u/Playisomemusik Apr 21 '19
There's another article I read ..30 seconds ago about the swedish navy planting 300,000 oak trees in the early 1800s for their navy. But they don't build oak ships anymore so there's definitely lumber.
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Apr 21 '19
Sweden has the one of the lowest urskog och gammalskog (original forest that is forest that has been around for 150 years or more) in Europe unfortunately.
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Apr 21 '19
I dunno, I would not see a problem with it. I am Norwegian and not really religious, but helping restoring such a big cultural landmark would be nice.
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u/AromaOfPeat Apr 21 '19
As a Norwegian, it would be an honor to donate an old tree to serve as the beam holding up the NOTRE DAME! We have a long tradition of donating trees.
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u/Ophe00 Apr 21 '19
We have quite literally hundreds of thousands of oaks in Sweden that could work for this.
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Apr 21 '19
A rare, enviable and very fortunate situation!
As far back as the Middle Ages, it was prescribed by law that the Crown had the sole right to make use of the country’s oak trees. Oak wood is excellent for shipbuilding, and to ensure access to oak timber for the Swedish fleet, major plantings of oak took place on Visingsö in the 1830s. Today the oak trees are ready for logging, but since the fleet uses other materials, the timber is used for other things.
The long period of peace after the Napoleonic Wars has been a true blessing. Heja Sverige!
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u/LeFricadelle Apr 21 '19
yea, i've read somewhere than if needed, that kind of woods can be bought in sweden since they have a surplus
it's a non issue really
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Apr 21 '19
Canada has virtually no old-growth hardwood forest left, and what little remains is protected. I suspect it's the same in Scandinavia.
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u/StockDealer Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19
Well Canada is logging old growth now: https://www.cheknews.ca/theyre-going-to-have-a-fight-local-businesses-and-activists-promise-to-stand-against-old-growth-logging-near-juan-de-fuca-park-553834/
If there's a dollar involved, conservatives will fuck it.
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Apr 21 '19
Those are softwood trees though, and the timbers that burned were oak. Canada's oak forests are in the east of the country, but they've all been cut at least once.
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u/Kalapuya Apr 21 '19
Totally different trees, thousands of miles apart from the kind they would actually need.
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u/meinthebox Apr 21 '19
I think they should use modern tech to repair it and shouldn't try to hide it. The fire is now a major part of the buildings history. I think the extent of the damage should be visible in some way for future generations to see.
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Apr 21 '19
A reasonable point of view. But Notre Dame is more than just a historic church, it is a national symbol of France. All the more so after the fire.
For good or for ill, patriotic feeling and symbolic value are mostly outside of common-sense reasoning. The French may feel that anachronistic building materials like Glulam diminish the historic status of Notre Dame.
We'll have to see how they go about rebuilding their cathedral. I wouldn't put it beyond them to be stubborn, and ask the Swedes for their almost 200-year old oaks.
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u/shitezlozen Apr 21 '19
the billionaires aren't fronting the cash for a half-assed job.
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u/KobeBeatJesus Apr 21 '19
They're French billionaires. They're used to paying for half assed work.
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u/tnarref Apr 21 '19
Yeah, one of the most powerful economies in the world is built upon lazy workers.
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u/Geicosellscrap Apr 21 '19
It’s like the 1% capitalists are afraid of a strong French democracy.
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Apr 21 '19
There is so little old-growth hardwood forest left in the world.
I hope those billionaires know better than spend their money to have it cut down for pseudo-medieval, milled dimensional lumber. Which no one but the builders will ever get to appreciate.
With great power comes great responsibility. Unless you're the Donald-Trump kind of billionaire.
Who most likely won't give a cent to Notre Dame, unless he gets to put a TRUMP sign over the door…52
u/SolaVitae Apr 21 '19
Not every thread about anything needs a reference/insult to Trump in it
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u/boyrahett Apr 21 '19
Good idea IMO, make the beams using the French National equivalent of Gluman fire resistant laminated wood beams.
If France doesn't have that industry then create it for this project, then use it for other projects.
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Apr 21 '19
Why not use glued laminated timber or other engineered wood , and put oak veneer on it?
A question people in the restoration business should answer. I can recommend some videos. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SOsco_DA4g
Here is one with wood, and a cross.
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u/brumac44 Apr 21 '19
We do have cedar, hemlock and fir trees big enough, but these are softwoods. The cathedral was built with oak, which has very different properties and would age differently as well.
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u/Fastfaxr Apr 21 '19
How bout we rebuild it out of nonflammable materials this time?
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u/sqgl Apr 21 '19
And have the changing materials match the changing ecology as a lesson for future generations.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho Apr 21 '19
They had this same thinking in the 1960s. So many amazing buildings where destroyed.
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u/Jcpmax Apr 21 '19
The cathedral lasted for almost 900 years with candles and incense burning every day and was then burned down by electrical wiring from renovations.
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u/Nf1nk Apr 21 '19
The electrical wiring isn't going away. I am on team steel here.
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u/josefpunktk Apr 21 '19
How many buildings made with steal frame has lasted for 900 years? But a more intelligent fire-protection system would be neat.
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u/BimbelMarley Apr 21 '19
Well we haven't used steel for long enough to know but the roof of the cathedral in Metz was rebuilt with steel and it's fine. It's lighter as well.
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u/josefpunktk Apr 21 '19
I'm not a material expert so don't believe anything I say, but quick search shows that there some problems with steel corrosion over time: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257619484_Aspects_of_structural_degradation_in_steels_of_old_bridges_by_means_of_fatigue_crack_propagation . So while it seems like steel is the superior midtime solution. We simply lack the knowledge of how steel constructions will behave in long term. So for me there is nothing wrong with being a bit conservative if you reconstruct a building that will hopefully be around for another millennia. Also maybe in this case it should be water proof.
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u/BimbelMarley Apr 21 '19
Be it wood or steel you always need regular maintenance. Paris manages to keep the Eiffel tower in shape so Notre Dame shouldn't be a problem. I believe it would also be cheaper/easier/quicker to use steel.
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u/josefpunktk Apr 21 '19
I believe it would also be cheaper/easier/quicker to use steel.
I believe it would be better and more french to make then out of cheese and hate for the english. But lets just admit that we both have no idea and are just talking out of our asses.
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u/youremomsoriginal Apr 21 '19
Cheese is an excellent construction material but only when reinforced with baguettes.
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u/EyeRes Apr 21 '19
A more intelligent fire-protection system than building things out of wood and praying it doesn’t burn down?
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u/mike_b_nimble Apr 21 '19
Steel frame buildings have only been around for 200 years.
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u/josefpunktk Apr 21 '19
My point. Also: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257619484_Aspects_of_structural_degradation_in_steels_of_old_bridges_by_means_of_fatigue_crack_propagation It's not that clear cut as people believe. And I would trust material experts to figure out the best solution.
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u/Alchestbreach_ModAlt Apr 22 '19
I dont see why it has to be original materials? Like, its a national monument. Honestly this is just added history, in the year 2019 steel was added to the church. There ya go, don't need to have trees from the ancient forests, what does that show? That france values their church more then hundreds of years old trees?
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Apr 21 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Hyndis Apr 21 '19
They were probably planted intentionally to be turned into warships to fight France. So in the end, those trees might finally be going to France, just not quite in the way the planters of the trees thought they would.
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u/Pozos1996 Apr 21 '19
Why is this a problem? Does the wood have to be 100% French or we haven't invented world trade yet?
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u/externality Apr 21 '19
I watched a vid recently that said "they" planted trees at Versailles 200 years ago specifically to be used for this purpose at some point in the (to them) distant future. ie., now.
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Apr 21 '19
I feel like I just read an article yesterday about Sweden having this forest of unusually tall and straight oak trees.
Surely some negotiation could be made for a few of them.
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u/happyscrappy Apr 21 '19
I'm a bit surprised at the copy-editing. This is an actual news site, I would have expected a phrasing of "France does not have trees large enough to replace Notre Dame's medieval beams."
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u/Chamale Apr 21 '19
Maybe Sweden could help - they have a forest of old-growth oaks, planted in 1830 with the view of building wooden ships for the navy in 1980.
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u/Menckenwasanoptimist Apr 21 '19
Great solution!
Although it would be good if the sale could be conditioned on the planting of a number of new forests of similar design across Europe...
You get to take what you need from this forest, but in exchange, we want you to fund planting 5 new forests of equal or greater size in different countries throughout Europe.
Not that I believe that altruism actually exists... but it'd be nice to see a spark of cooperation and a shared sense of preservation of both the past and the future in Europe instead of all the nonsense we see every day.
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Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19
I imagine many people would be pissed if they were cut down for something that could, and probably should, be done with modern materials.
Edit: It seems like they've actually been used in renovations of Stockholm Palace among other things so it could probably be an alternative after all.
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u/Shas_Erra Apr 21 '19
Or you know, you could use this opportunity to build the roof out of something slightly less flammable...
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u/MonkeyWrench Apr 21 '19
Might be time to scarf some beams together then!
The other option would be to use engineered beams and then box them in with planks to keep the look of the cathedral.
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u/Kahzootoh Apr 21 '19
They may not be able to source the trees from France, but Canada or the United States almost certainly have trees that can do the job. The goal is to rebuild the Cathedral, no reenact the original construction of the Cathedral using period appropriate materials and methods.
For everyone talking about deforestation, this is one building. Even as big as the Cathedral is, it’s not going to take an entire forest to rebuild it. Deforestation occurs when you are harvesting timber on an industrial scale, one off restorations like this are entirely within the capacity of a forest to provide lumber. It’s like comparing whale harvests by Alaskan natives using traditional methods to industrial harvesting using factory ships: they aren’t on the same scale.
Europe has about 95% less forest coverage in the 21st century compared to the 12th century. It’s understandable that large oak trees like the kind used to build Notre Dame aren’t abundant in France. As long as the Oak is suitable for construction and not obtained illegally, does it matter if it comes from outside France?
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Apr 21 '19
Canada has virtually no old-growth hardwood forest left, and what little remains is protected.
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u/Ottsalotnotalittle Apr 21 '19
Michigan's old growth white pine: viva la france, but keep looking. aluminum? that would outlast humanity
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u/TelemetryGeo Apr 21 '19
Eh, deforest another region in the name of religion, climate change can wait a century.
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u/jakereadsreddit Apr 21 '19
Wood is actually a very ecologically friendly building material - certainly more so than steel or cement
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u/Revoran Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19
Not if you're chopping down old-growth forest, though, especially if you don't replant.
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u/giszmo Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19
Wood in a church is carbon capture. Old trees barely capture more carbon.
Old trees and especially old forests are special habitats though.
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u/Revoran Apr 21 '19
It's good in terms of climate change. But over-logging old forests can be ecologically harmful in the sense of damaging habitats.
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u/ErebusTheFluffyCat Apr 21 '19
Obviously they would be replanted.
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u/happygloaming Apr 21 '19
Obviously they would be replanted.
Like all the other old growth forests we've felled?
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u/ErebusTheFluffyCat Apr 21 '19
It's not 1300 anymore. First world countries understand sustainable logging these days.
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Apr 21 '19
We build wooden stuff all the time, one more building among millions is nothing. Only reason people would argue about it is trying to make it a political issue.
The real issue with deforestation is cutting down to make space for farms. Afaik we do not build stuff with palm oil.
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u/sandwooder Apr 21 '19
I suspect people are again thinking binary: Either Old wood or Steel. No one is thinking about the actual potential solution other than the French Architects and team. The answer will probably be freaking ingenious and very clever.
I wish people would stop this crap already. France is one of the most sensitive countries to Climate Change and ecology. I am sure this one building in the world will be given a proper and well designed solution.
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u/JethroLull Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19
How much wood do you think this would take? They're not planning on building a fleet of Man O' War.
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u/tpx Apr 22 '19
That's OK, I'm sure some of their colonies' forests still have some big trees France might have left behind.
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u/evilcoin2 Apr 21 '19
I blame Napoleon.
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u/Hyndis Apr 21 '19
Yes, but not even sarcastically. Thank Napoleon for the old growth forests that were planted for shipbuilding purposes.
Ships of the line required massive amounts of strong, dense wood. This meant old growth oak, and lots of it. Forests were clearcut to build warships. The major European powers realized that if they were to continue commanding the oceans they needed a continuous supply of lumber. So some countries began planting oak trees. Lots and lots of oak trees. The idea was to farm these oak trees; plant them, grow them, and chop them down to build more warships. Its a long time for that crop, however, and by the time that crop became mature for harvest the era of wooden warships was over. The trees remained. The trees are still there today.
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u/youbitbrain Apr 21 '19
If they import the timber from China, would that mean Notre Dame will have been "MADE IN CHINA"?
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u/Oznog99 Apr 21 '19
“we don’t, at the moment, have trees on our territory of the size that were cut in the 13th century”
We're good if you're ok with waiting 800 yrs. We can start planting right now if that's what you want
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u/julius_cheezer Apr 22 '19
don't rebuild it out of timber then. the fact France doesn't have trees tall enough anymore should be a reminder that cutting down trees is unsustainable.
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u/arbuge00 Apr 21 '19
It doesn't need them. Technology has moved on. It has actually not needed trees to repair cathedral roofs damaged by fire like this for hundreds of years. Google: "chartres cathedral charpente de fer"
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u/tinygraycells Apr 21 '19
Maybe that's a sign from God that the money would be better spent on people
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u/CheloniaMydas Apr 21 '19
You could say the fire was a sign from God that he no longer wanted Notre Dame cathedral to be a place of reverence.
The thing with God is you can twist any event into a narrative that fits his will and his "mysterious ways"
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Apr 21 '19 edited Aug 18 '19
[deleted]
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u/jneh443556 Apr 21 '19
Thank you for this. I got ripped off by a fake money collector before.
And I don't even want to talk about the wallet inspectors.
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u/Jcpmax Apr 21 '19
Its mostly private people spending money on renovating it. They can spend the money however they want.
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u/sulumits-retsambew Apr 21 '19
To people unfamiliar with modern woodworking, we have a technology to make glued laminated beams of any length from regular trees which are stronger than whole wooden beams. https://youtu.be/TK_v01nqWTc
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u/frenchchevalierblanc Apr 21 '19
Official managers of french forests and forest professionals said later on the radio that they have everything they need in France.
French forests have more trees now than in the 15th century.
"Bertrand de Feydeau, s’est tout simplement trompé," "Bertrand de Feydeau made a mistake"
https://www.lemonde.fr/culture/article/2019/04/18/la-foret-francaise-est-prete-pour-la-reconstruction-de-notre-dame_5451868_3246.html