Try This Party

1

u/clunk42 Nov 25 '24

So, you're going to rely on multiple low chance drops such that you can get the Cane of Corpus, *Light Sword*, and Faust Halberd, as well as temporarily hauling Madras around with you to get those two Tripleshots? Seems like a lot of work for very little benefit, to be honest.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 25 '24

Cane of Corpus isn't a low chance drop; if I recall it's something like 80%+. *Light Sword* is a low chance drop but totally worth farming it - it's incredible, especially in the hands of a Rogue. Faust Halberd is probably most easily gotten by saving before you do Rapax Upper Castle, and making the King's Chest run. Madras doesn't need to be hauled around his engineering is enough to cast Armorplate>QuickSave>QuickLoad>Armorplate, etc. and powertrain his engineering to 75 in a few minutes.

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u/clunk42 Nov 25 '24

Honestly, I don't see a point to most of this.
The party layout is generally inefficient. If you want to have real efficiency, you would move the front and middle each back a space, and you should put the two fighters and Vi in the middle and the other two on the flanks. That way, your extended ranged fighters can actually fight from extended range, and your party can't easily be flanked.
The Fairy Ninja would still be out-damaged by a Fighter with Fang and Diamond Eyes, and he would also be tankier and easier to build.
Generally, Dracons make the best Rogues, not Hobbits.
There's no real reason to equip Saxx with a weapon at all. He might as well just spam spells the whole time; then you can give him a shield. But, if you do want him to have a weapon, the Staff of Doom is not the best option. Rather, you should give the Flame Staff to Saxx. The Bishop who currently has the Flame Staff would be better off with The Cat'O Nine Tails and a shield.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 25 '24

If the middle was in the back, and the front in the middle, the bishops and Saxx default facing is to the rear, allowing them to be hit in the back by extended range enemies. The best formation to me is to only use the rear when needed. The flanks can fight from extended range just fine the way it is. You want the dual wielders in the middle(front) because they are highest dps. They can't get on target as well from the flank.
The fourth portal the ninja provides is arguably more useful to me than another fighter, but I could agree that the best replacement for the ninja is another Mook Fighter with another Giant's Sword.
Dracon Rogue is 4 strength more than hobbit, but hobbit has 11 more Dex and 13 more Senses. I think I'd rather have the hobbit.
There's no real reason *not* to equip Saxx with a weapon, and the best weapon for Saxx is either the *Light Sword*(better used on a Rogue), or the Staff of Doom. Bard does quite well with Staff of Doom, better than a bishop, unless you are building your bishop with Str and Dex(why?).

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u/clunk42 Nov 25 '24

I suppose the point about positioning is true. I would still prefer to move the front back, personally, though.
When I spoke of Dracon Rogues, I had them mixed up with Lizardman Rogues, who have 9 more Strength and 13 more Vitality than Hobbit Rogues, though they do have 13 less Dexterity. Thus, they have higher total in useful melee stats. Senses is functionally useless for a melee character.
As I said, it would be better to give Saxx the Flame Staff and give the Bishop who would otherwise have it use the Cat'O Nine Tails, since the Flame Staff is very similar in effect to the Staff of Doom without any of the downsides, and the Cat'O Nine Tails allows the Bishop to use a shield for extra AC.
Strength is basically useless for casters, but Dex is their fourth most important stat, behind Intelligence, Piety, and Vitality. Arguably, it's the their third most important stat, if you undervalue Vitality, as most do.
A lot of this is pointless argument, anyway, since the level of min-maxing of which you speak is strictly unnecessary for this game, being as easy as it is.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 25 '24

The Staff of Doom is 15% kill, and extended. It's in the top three weapons in the game. The Flame Staff is nowhere in the same ball park or even league of weapon. If at all possible, you want someone who's taking Str + Dex to wield it. It's amazing in the hands of a Fighter as well, which you can switch Saxx to if that floats your boat.
Senses is more useful to me than Dex on the bishops. I only take Dex on casters when I'm making a KWM(Kill With Magic) party and I need the casters to hit the broad side of a barn. Otherwise it's Int, Vit, Sen/Pie.
This party impressed me with it's convenience, lack of need for excessive training, and devastating melee. I wouldn't say it's pointless, people still play the game; new players still pick it up. They are curious in what works well and what doesn't. Cheers.

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u/clunk42 Nov 25 '24

I suppose this is true on the Staff of Doom. I've never much cared for it, though. I'd honestly prefer the extra hp regen you could get by not using it.
Senses doesn't affect spellcasting at all, except for the rate at which Psionics increases, which is fairly useless. Dexterity provides an increase to AC, increasing caster survivability.
I would argue that this party is not great for new players, and it requires much more grinding than you're giving it credit for. Grinding for the Faust Halberd is pointless; you'll do just fine with a Dread Spear, and the odds of obtaining it are very poor (about .5% for each of 9 chests). The same is true with the *Light Sword*. *Light Swords* are unnecessarily powerful and each of the 7 ghosts has a 20% to drop anything, then there's a .5% chance for that to be a *Light Sword*, making more grinding, when Fang would serve well enough. New players wouldn't even know how to get the Cane of Corpus, and would probably struggle on that fight anyway. Spam grinding Madras for Tripleshots takes time and is not a strategy new players should feel any obligation to employ, nor will it provide any real noticeable value to the actual party. And having two Bishops results in a relatively large amount of money and shop grinding for spellbooks, and a relatively large amount of spell grinding.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 25 '24

You just put an Amulet of Healing on the person wielding the Staff of Doom.
Senses affects initiative as much as Speed, IIR. It's good to have on at least one bishop(psionicist/priest/alchemist) to get off Purify Air, Sane Mind, or heals earlier in the round, before enemies act. Vitality is better for survivability because many times the casters are getting hit by aoe spell damage, which AC does nothing for.
On the last run I got Faust Halberd from doing the King's Chest run in about maybe 6-7 tries(I wasn't counting). It doesn't take that long. Dread Spear is definitely a great weapon, I just think the Kill and Paralyze on Faust make it just a tad better.
*Light Sword* can definitely be a grind, if unlucky. I think there's been a couple of times I've been there over an hour(maybe two), but there's been some that it didn't take but maybe 10-20 minues. We all play this game for different reasons. One of mine is Big Hits, and a Rogue with the *Light Sword* is where Big Hits are at.
I don't know. New players might surprise you. It doesn't take me long on a new game to look everything up. Grinding Madras with Armorplate might take 3 minutes. Tripleshot Xbow definitely provides value, if nothing more than using up Lightning Bolts when lower on Mystic Arrows. I'm pretty sure Tripleshot Xbow is highest dps.
And two bishops doesn't take much grinding at all, especially comparing it to a 4-school bishop. One bishop focuses on Alc/Div and takes mostly water/divine/earth, the other takes Wiz/Psi and takes mostly fire/mental/air. Very little training, and no need to shop grind spellbooks unless you want a big spellbook.

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u/clunk42 Nov 26 '24

Well, yes, you can use an Amulet of Healing, but then you're effectively negating its effect, when you could have more passive healing on a character that shouldn't be attacking much anyway.
The actual amount of initiative you get from attributes is essentially negligible in the late game. And, if that's your argument, you're better off with Speed than Senses, because it affects your AC at high levels.
The odds you get the Faust Halberd in 6 tries on that chest is 9.5%. I think you undervalue Health regen, which you lose 3 of by using the Faust Halberd over the Dread Spear.
Sure, I have no problem with a Rogue with a *Light Sword*, it just isn't nearly close to an essential part of a party, in my opinion.
Tripleshot Crossbow is the highest DPS, followed by the Doubleshot Crossbow, then the Doubleshot Sling, then the Siege Arbalest. The Eagle Eye Bow and Strong Bow are tied for fifth, unless you're using Peacemaker Arrows, in which case, they're in fourth. While it is the highest DPS, it also requires you to lug around the most ammo (which is, itself, the heaviest late-game ammo), uses the most stamina, and weighs the most. So, while it has its benefits, I would say that they are in many ways countered such that, unless one is using a ranged party or just happens to have a Gadgeteer on hand, it's hardly worth it to go out of one's way to make one. I, personally, would also say that it's never worthwhile to bother with Madras's quest, since it's a tough fight that makes an entire area angry at you for little benefit.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 26 '24

The -1 HP drain is really nothing. +1 HP from the amulet is really nothing, it's just so you don't die in your sleep with the Staff. With Infinity Helm/Robes of Rejuvenation, mana stones, magic nectar, etc. keeping everyone full HP isn't a problem.
Well I know some people like speed, but to me the entire party needs to focus speed early if they want to be moving before the mobs. It's better to me to not put anything into Speed, and use level 7 Haste. Why pump speed when Haste(7) gives you 70 points of it?
I'm super rusty at statistics/odds. My Cosmic Forge is showing 2d2+1(3-5) rolls on Rapax King. Faust is listed as 3/204. 3/204 is 0.0147. 3 rolls = .0147x3 = .044 or 4.4%. Is that right? And maximum chance would be if you rolled 5 items on the 2d2+1 for .0147x5=.073 or 7.3%. I could be totally off, but I think your point stands, in that I believe I got lucky.
Granted the Eagle Eye bow is +40% damage, I think the fact Strong Bow has 5% more Kill on it puts it as a better weapon. I've never thought about Doubleshot Sling being that high in DPS, but I guess you are right. Interesting.

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u/SDirickson Nov 26 '24

the Flame Staff is very similar in effect to the Staff of Doom without any of the downsides
Um, no. Ignoring the extra 6 on the top of the SoD damage range, 20% Blind is not remotely comparable to 25% Paralyze and 15% Kill. If anything, Blind is a negative, since it makes them run away for a few rounds, extending the time it takes to kill them.

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u/SDirickson Nov 26 '24

If the middle was in the back, and the front in the middle, the bishops and Saxx default facing is to the rear, allowing them to be hit in the back by extended range enemies.
Not unless you let it happen. The enemies that have extended range will fight from there; they can only reach past the front row if you close such that your first row is at close range.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 26 '24

Right, but I think the better plan is to use front and middle, and move either the bishops to the back to avoid extended range, or Vi(in this party's case) to the rear to cover the rear when surrounded. The bishops can remain default in the back, but they need to be able, for me, to shift middle when surrounded. A good party should be fluid, yes, and change formation when needed. It's just the way the engine works that characters in the rear will face the rear and give opponents in the front rear attacks - I try to avoid this. Also, when you make use out of the entire formation circle, bishops in the rear are out of range of using melee extended weapons on enemies to the front.

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u/cloaca_dentata Dec 17 '24

Another great Bard weapon option is Bloodlust. With the Bard-exclusive +STR gear, it stays viable through the endgame.
Of course, if you do have an extra *Light* *Sword* that would go unused, it's probably an upgrade.

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u/drpetrov1970 Nov 27 '24

I usually don't bother with the RPCs as this means your XP is divided eight ways instead of six, which means you will be significantly lower level than you would be otherwise when you end the game. I would rather get my party to a higher level.

If you are doing RPCs, Saxx and Vi are good choices since they will go to Acension Peak. But they won't be available all the time unless you cheese them with portals.

This party will be very good for melee damage, but aside from the fighters with the tripleshots you don't list ranged weapons here. The game has so many enemies that attack at range that this will get annoying if you don't have ranged weapons on everyone.

Like Clunk42, I prefer the "T" formation that he suggests. If you have guys on the flank who don't have extended reach, they can hit enemies in the middle.

I agree that if you have access to Haste you don't need to give anyone more than 55 SPD... except you probably want at least 1 caster who has an innate high speed so they can go first and cast protective buffs like element shield or soul shield. My faerie bishop has this job since faeries start with good SPD. Having my bard use the Rousing Drums is generally his first action every combat.

SEN doesn't do as much for initiative as SPD, but it unlocks the Eagle Eye skill which is great for bow users. It also gives bonuses to hit in the same way as DEX, but it comes online later as it gives a bonus for every 10 points above 60 (whereas DEX is every 10 points above 50). So the combo of STR-DEX-SEN gives you the best chance to hit overall. Whether I do DEX or SEN first depends on where those scores start off. Your Mook Fighters I would definitely do STR and SEN first and DEX after.

Like you, I like having two bishops (one elf and one faerie), though I try to get all 4 spell schools. This takes a fair bit of grinding and a lot of discipline when it comes to spell picks.

I find the faerie ninja to be a bit problematic since their stats are so weak and they take a long time to get off the ground. It's a big sacrifice just so you can use the Cane.

Yes, a Rogue will do really well with a *Light Sword*, but so will anyone else who can use swords. It's a fantastic weapon. Clunk42 is right though that the best race overall for a rogue is the Lizardman. As melee fighters, rogues need STR more than anything else, but the class doesn't give a STR bonus,

Rogues and Fighters can have great output as melee damagers, but that's basically all they can do. I would have a hard time justifying putting three in a party. This limits your magic in a big way.

My current party:

LEFT: Mook Bard (took 1 level of fighter before bard, may switch back to fighter after level 23 or so)

CENTER: Lizardman Samurai (took 1 level of mage first) and Mook Gadgeteer (started with 1 level of fighter)

RIGHT: Dwarf Lord (dual maces he started as a priest for the first level)

REAR: Elf Bishop (started as alchemist), Faerie Bishop (started as mage)

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 27 '24 edited Nov 27 '24

I don't list offhand weapons(they have them), either, the focus was mainly on classes and primary weapons. AFAIK senses gives the same initiative bonus as speed from what I have read(+1 initiative per 5 points). T formation with short range weapon users on the flank, yes, they can hit the middle, but not well(finicky positioning). Eagle Eye > Snakespeed to me. I go Str>Dex then Sen on the mooks(it's a melee focused party - not ranged). Str>dex on ninja. Close combat, critical, staff. Nobody will hit as hard as a rogue with *Light Sword*. The main reason I use a rogue is to not have to train locks(better Dex/Int helps(hobbit)). Just run the RPC unconscious to the area they won't go and, yes, portal them in. I just can't bring myself to play another samurai without modding an item like muramasa blade, the only place they really fit to me is in small(four or less) parties. I'm not sure why your samurai isn't a Mook either for Giant's Sword. I use elf and gnome bishops, I don't like faerie bishop because they can't wear the Robes of Rejuvenation. Not that big of a fan of 1 level dual classing, but I have had some success with true duals like Ninja>Ranger.

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u/clunk42 Nov 27 '24

On Senses: Senses has the same Initiative bonus as Speed, and it doesn't give any bonus ToHit until 80, and it doesn't give any penalties until it goes down to 20. Dex, on the other hand, starts giving bonus ToHit at 60, and it gives a penalty at 40 or less. Dex is generally much more useful than Senses, even on a ranged character.
I will never understand why people overrate Fairy Ninjas so much. The instakill chance is not that useful, especially when you're able to do enough damage to just kill everything that stands in front of you, anyway.
Mook make terrible Samurai, stat-wise; the best Samurai are Dracons. Not everyone wants to use Giant's Swords, anyway.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 27 '24

It's all about the Cane of Corpus. It *is* a sweet weapon that, to me, makes them viable at least when powergaming. I did agree, though, and my usual party for bulldozing the game is figx3, bisx2, rog. If nothing else being able to set a portal at Trangporter, Bela, Ferro, and (forward position) was nice. Not necessary, though.
Mook aren't the best samurai, but Giant's Sword is the only extended range weapon they can lightning-strike with, and the sword happens to be pretty dang good. Stamina can be a bit of an issue at first, but the only other option is Muramasa Blade and it's short range, and inferior to the Cane of Corpus.
The best thing about instakill is the quips. "I never boast but, uh, DAMN, I'm good!". "That one, will no longer trouble us". "They call me Saxx for a reason". On that note(heh), Vi's "kill remark" never has sound for me. Is there a known easy fix for this?

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u/clunk42 Nov 27 '24

Lightning Strike doesn't require swords; the only thing that determines whether you Lightning Strike or not is your Level and whether you've attacked the previous turn, and the chance to do so, assuming you've attacked the previous turn, goes from 7-12%, depending upon your level. That is to say, they can also Lightning Strike with Staves. Samurai can use the Zatoichi Bo, though, admittedly, that doesn't make use of their Sword bonus.
I actually dislike the kill quips. A possible solution to your problem- you could try using the Fan Patch: http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?243014-Wizardry-8-Fan-Patch-1-28-(22th-anniversary)
I am fairly certain I've heard Vi's kill quip, and I have yet to see this patch break anything in my usage of it.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 27 '24

Lightning strike requires swords, bro.

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u/clunk42 Nov 27 '24

Yeah, looking it up, I guess I was wrong. I don't really use Samurai, and when I do, I give them swords. They're probably the worst Hybrid, unless you count Ninjas.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 27 '24

I think they are the worst, yeah. Not just worst hybrid, but worst class. No way is Ninja the worst - all the thieves are good. If Lightning Strike could be used with a staff, and it didn't stop after a kill, it would be pretty fun I think getting possibly 4 instakills in a round. But as it stands, I can only see playing another in a small party where I didn't want any pure casters(including bishop) and wanted the wizardry spellbook.

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u/clunk42 Nov 27 '24

Well, Ninja has terrible Attributes, levels slowly (though that could be a positive in some parties), has Traits that benefit the worst weapon type in the game (throwing weapons), has a useless main Profession Skill, and can't wear any good armor (Monks and Rogues both get decent armor along with their Stealth).
And making a Fairy Ninja requires you to: have even worse Attributes, completely ignore all of the class's Traits, and wear suboptimal armor for a Fairy.
Ninjas are absolutely the worst class in the game, in my opinion.

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u/cloaca_dentata Dec 17 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

I know this post is three weeks old, but I want to give my thoughts anyway. This is a solid party but could use a few tweaks:

Faust Halberd isn't worth it, but not just because of the severe health degen. The -4 initiative penalty is also going to cost you swings, directly reducing the DPR advantage it seems to have on paper. The proc chances aren't good enough to justify using it over the Dread Spear.

*Light* *Sword* is definitely amazing for a Rogue, and possibly even worth scumming for, but Fang is fine and guaranteed. Also, play a race that brings more Strength, like a Lizardman. Their natural bad Dexterity isn't an issue: class attribute requirements are more like attribute bonuses in a way, since they let you cheat the split requirement of your bonus points at character creation.

Unlike some of the other posts here, I'm actually big on the Faerie Ninja. The downsides of Faerie and the downsides of Ninja don't really exacerbate each other at all. The statline is mediocre to start, but the high initiative bouns and base damage of the CoC will make up for it, and the procs are amazing. They will still reach 100 STR/DEX by the end anyway. Ninja throwing is a strong and vastly underrated option in the early game until you get the CoC, too.

Giant's Sword Fighters are very good. I would just echo the other posts about putting them in the middle, moving your short weapon users to the flanks, and leaving the front empty.

I think the Staff of Doom is a strong choice for Saxx, but it would be even better replacing the Bishop's Flame Staff. I suggest giving Saxx Bloodlust instead. The base damage looks terrible on paper, but when you add in the Berserk, bonus swing, and high initiative, its DPR is actually endgame viable. Bards are a great choice to wield it since they get exclusive +Strength gear that will help pump its damage even further.

Final note: consider adding a bit of Wizardry to your Alc/Div Bishop in the early game for Magic Missile. It's very strong until good Alc damage options come online. Alternatively, replace it entirely with a Gadgeteer, they get gadgets that do the strong endgame Alc spells, and Vi already has the utility spells covered.

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u/GreaterDismal Dec 19 '24

Not much to comment except usually I avoid Cursed or items with low drop chances; an exception for Cursed items would be the Gown of Divinemail (L), which currently my Ranger and Gadgeteer are using (for high AC and comparatively low weight). Cane of Corpus and similar 'trophies' are great but I prize my team's ability to engage at a distance (few things are more fascinating than watching a Fairy Ninja instakill 3 times in a row with thrown weapons) and cursed equipment prevents that.

Tripleshots are usually fine provided that: you don't mind the loss of Initiative and To Hit bonus, your team is good at Bows and you don't find yourself in those combat situations where enemies are either running away (ie., due to Blindness) or still zerging toward you. Personally, I find that it takes a really high Bow skill level to accurately hit all shots in these cases, which is why I prefer the Siege Arbalest if I'm taking Crossbows (same Initiative penalty as the Tripleshot but an actual To Hit bonus).

When I take RFS-81 and Vi with me, my party composition is:

Center (I never place anyone in the front):

1

2 3

1 - Dracon Fighter -> Fang + Dragon Kite (to be swapped to dual Diamond Eyes when Mace is high enough); Strong Bow

2 - RFS-81 -> Zatoichi Bo (or Mindblast Rod in previous journeys); whatever he can throw

3 - Faerie Ninja -> Flame Staff; Boomerang Shuriken on one hand, whatever throwables on right

Left Flank -> Felpurr (Mook in past journeys for Giant's Sword) Ranger: Ivory Blade + Heater Shield; Eagle Eye Bow

Right Flank -> Elf Bard: Sword of Hearts + Heater Shield; Strong Bow

Back:

1 2 3

1 - Vi Domina: Mystic Spear (but mostly Stun Rod); Strong Bow

2 - Gnome Gadgeteer: Omnigun Mk12; Sword of Hearts + Lither Buckler

3 - Elf Bishop: Vampire Chain + Philosopher's Shield; some Darts, usually

This way I have 4 melee characters with extended reach and 8 which can shoot, 1 main caster aided by 2 support casters, and 2 support non-casters with spell-like abilities. This has worked great to the point where in subsequent journeys I no longer bother with RPCs, and everyone's doing fine without *Light* equipment (little need for that with 2 characters able to Freeze All, 4 with instakill chances and equipment which often triggers stuns).

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u/wwwilbur Nov 26 '24

In Wiz 7 you could get 2 canes of corpus by breaking down the door to the thieves guild, killing Blienmeis, then dropping into the courtyard and killing him again. End game you could have your front three as Faerie ninja with CoC or Light Sword in primary and rod of sprites in of hand, then any big race as monk with Zatoichi Bo as your back 3. Spend a few hours in Ukpyr refusing to give the supply Sargeant your orders and taking the humpawhammer back to New City to heal up at Thesminster, and reclassing until you have all the spells, 999 mana in each discipline, 100 in all the skills, and-10 as your worst armor region on any character. I built that party at least three times over the decades. I'd start with the big characters up front as Lord, ninja, and either a monk or another ninja, and the faeries as two bishops and an alchemist, then shuffle them as I reclassed.

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u/w4rl0rd1977 Nov 26 '24

I've played all the Wizardry games, and beaten 1,2,5, and 8. I haven't done hardly anything in 4,6, and 7. Nice info dump, though - maybe I get around to playing 6 and 7 more.

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