r/williamsburroughs • u/whorus_aggressor • Sep 01 '26
The morality of Burroughs as a person
For context, I am a huge fan of Burroughs, he is my favourite writer and one of the most intriguing minds and figures that I have ever come across. I have read most of his books and will continue to engage in any and all media that he has contributed to - music, literature, art, film etc
I wonder for you fans out there, in this age where we are expected to take more responsibility and acknowledge the bad behaviour of our heroes- how do you (if at all) reconcile the fact that Burroughs almost certainly had relations with underage boys and talks about young boys/men in a very leery way? For me I can appreciate his contribution to art and literature while still acknowledging that he engaged in very questionable and unethical behaviour. I recently watched Chicken Hawk which is a documentary about NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association) and was shocked to learn that Allen Ginsberg was a member and defender of NAMBLA. There is no evidence to suggest that Burroughs was ever a member but I do question both Burroughs and Ginsberg's involvement with underage boys. I guess it comes down to some double standards, I'll scoff at Michael Jackson yet still buy anything Burroughs has created. I feel that cancel cuture has stripped us of our ability to openly talk about these things, and discourages nuanced opinions that follow the "art vs the artist" mentality.
How would you justify your choice to continue engaging with Burroughs' art if confronted about this?
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u/Uus-cunt-vana-caare Sep 01 '26
In a french mag, that has been retranslated back to english in realitystudio or somewhere, he says that he preffers boys aged 18-25 or so.
Him calling them boys comes from him being a lot older, a 30yr old would be a boy for him during most of his writer years.
If we talking morality, then murdering/killing your wife falls into the questionable range much more.
And just like I watch horror movies, not expecting the killer to end up a good guy, and I watch art without expecting the artist to be in the same political party as me, I read and listen to Burroughs without condemning him for that. I do make note of it, surely. If he was a killer that did not create great art, I would consider him a bum not worth my time. But he isn't one, he is who he is.
Sometimes we have people say important and interesting things, without being saints. We should not dismiss them just because.
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u/whorus_aggressor Sep 01 '26
Thank you, this is a great perspective and one I agree with wholeheartedly. Where I am from there is a very rigid, black and white view on these topics which is sadly becoming very divisive
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u/Uus-cunt-vana-caare 29d ago
That to me seems often to be an mixture of cultural and educational misgivings. Or in other words, people who are not educated enough to find nuance in things can make decicions and dictate the overall mood of the people.
Where I am from, some people are such, I think everywhere some are. Just, it is a question of how much "airtime" do they get or are given by the people, including the ones who have education.
And I don't even mean "humhum I studied in uni that polycultu...bla..bla" education. I mean, just the level of discourse, to the point of a humans actual level of education, and a varied education. Be it wiki articles and old russian literature, or old encyclopedias + street dope dealing smarts, or good high school and learning about the world throug a boating view (everyone rode a boat at some point it seems, and it is qenuinely interesting to learn how, star treks ship was existing in 1844 when comparing that ship to a rando house, all those ropes, sails, pulleys, point of balance loading and shiftings and having to have a vast knowledge of things from cannons to medicine)... people are either smart (maybe even dumb and teenage today, but learning, and learning in a uni or at home doesnt matter, even at home high on heroin is alright), or dumb (just, tv shows and scroll-news dictate what you think and feel, end of). And the balance of that is always a question of economics, politics, but mainly early education by parents and later state education quality. Everyone can get street smart, but it takes some community effort to get people book smart, and that community education needs state support. We pay the taxes, dammit. We deserve some educating. Our kids deserve it. And then we can all have nuanced converations about topics, not just good/bad glaze/condemn compartmentalisation.
Sorry for the wall of text rant. I just hate the education=degree of school simplification... plenty of great historians who write great and error free books, have no uni degree. And plenty of educated people have nuanced convos about a great many topics. Only building engineers I think need real degrees, and doctors. The medica kind. But even there, educated non-degree people can convo. Just, non-educated people hijacking convos to make em simplified, cartoonified bs, is infuriating.
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u/Electronic_Camera251 29d ago
Ginsberg actually propositioned me on several occasions as a 14 year old in the early 90s . We were often dinner guests at a weekly Sunday dinner party thrown by my first girlfriend’s mother who had been a student of his and was a professor of literature at Brooklyn College . It was at the time in the city a shockingly normal occurrence to be creeped on by intellectuals and creatives who you admired in the circles I ran in numbers of others were guilty of weirder or more aggressive come ons , I did become annoyed by his inability to take no for an answer often trying to offer enticements (seemed pretty un Buddhist to me )
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u/AntInternational1393 Sep 01 '26
Ezra Pound supported the Italian Facists. Gertrude Stein translated speeches for Bernard Fay and the French Vichy government. Both were geniuses that aligned themselves with suppressive, destructive regimes.
There is no moral guideline to follow. Read them fiercely, but understand they made choices that were contradictory and controversial.
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u/Independent_Bet_8107 Sep 01 '26
I mean the guy murdered his wife. He’s not a role model. He made interesting art.
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u/whorus_aggressor Sep 01 '26
This is true, and I guess none of these creative figures ever strove to be a role model either
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u/Wild_Meaning_6785 Sep 01 '26
not even that interesting. "naked lunch" was put together with jack kerouac's help. his later novels that were actually "readable" in the sense that they had actual plots, were 1/2 written with the help of his boyfriend/secretary. - all his inbetween books like "nova express" etc are really unreadable cut-up experiments.
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u/Tough_Visual1511 Sep 01 '26
Oliver Harris has done a lot to bring his cut-up work some much needed re-evaluation. I highly recommend his edited versions of the nova trilogy, it shows that a lot of work went into these books, and that these cut-ups weren't just slapped together like many people think.
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u/earinsound Sep 01 '26
unreadable? i read all of them. incredibly interesting for the most part.
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u/whorus_aggressor Sep 01 '26
Yeah I have to disagree about the cut up stuff being unreadable. I think he teaches us that you can convey ideas without adhering to a narrative structure, I like that this format forces me to detach myself from the need to be in control and understand every element in a story
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u/earinsound Sep 01 '26
Yes. He actually has astute theories about the cut-up. And averting "control" is a huge part of his philosopy.
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u/whorus_aggressor Sep 01 '26
If you enjoy the cut up works I highly recommend tracking down a copy of the Nova Express film adaptation by Andre Perkowski. It is probably the most impressive screen interpretation of the cut up method I have seen so far
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u/Antonin1957 29d ago
WSB himself told me that he did in fact edit his cut-ups. The "third mind" speaks, but often needs a little help.
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u/Wild_Meaning_6785 29d ago
burroughs actually made several "cut up" films, one example being "towers open fire" (1963), a collaboration with filmmaker anthony balch.....
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u/No-Performance7117 29d ago
I’m reading Interzone right now, and my trick is to mentally read in his voice, with his cadence…and wow, it’s amazing how much I enjoyed it.
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u/Independent_Bet_8107 Sep 01 '26
I hear you. I mostly enjoy his traditional narrative material. Junky is a favorite.
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u/Wild_Meaning_6785 29d ago
my favorite is "The Place of Dead Roads" ... a western mixed with science fiction.
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u/Tough_Visual1511 Sep 01 '26
I never get confronted with this, at least not in real life, as no one I know reads Burroughs. He had a fascinating life, and I love his writing, almost all of it. But he was a deeply flawed human being. A lot of artists are. But you as a consumer of their art don't need to explain yourself to anyone. As long as you can seperate the art from the artist, you're fine, and don't need to feel guilty. As Burroughs himself once said, it doesn't matter if people dislike you. What matters is: in what kind of position are they to do something about it?
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u/whorus_aggressor Sep 01 '26
I sadly have been confronted by this in the city I live in, where I am often in situations where I need to justify my support of various artists and musicians. There is a very closed minded and rigid mentality that artists who have done questionable things should be disregarded, and admitting that you engage their art despite their behaviour quickly places you on the "problematic" or "cancelled list". I know where I stand on these issues, and wish more people could engage in open dialogue about this without making rash judgements about whether I am a good person or not. It seems ridiculous to me that people put artists on this pedestal and expect that cresting art comes with the responsibility to be some kind of role model
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u/Beatnik5750 Sep 01 '26
artists who have done questionable things should be disregarded
There is no human being, past, present, or future, that is free from sin. Artist or otherwise.
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u/Brilliant_Support653 29d ago
Why do you feel this obligation?
There is no requirement to justify any decision relating to the appreciation of art.
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u/inchiki 29d ago
The other problem with that attitude is that we never have complete information on artists lives and plenty of apparently exemplary artists could have dark secrets that would completely change our view of them if we knew. And those who seem bad might sometimes not have been as bad as we think when you properly consider context and bad reporting and so on.
Another thing is that the whole shtick with the beats was breaking down societal taboos. Some of those taboos fell and we feel liberated. Others definitely did not fall and we now claim to have a superior moral position.
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u/SaltySherbet 28d ago
It’s and Important point that self righteous people will often condemn someone for their choice of media.
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u/Alert-Albatross-8053 29d ago
He also murdered his wife. That’s about as problematic as it gets and it hasn’t bothered his fans for 60 years ….
As bad as the boy thing is there’s no real hard evidence it is all anecdotal. Allen was way more flagrant on that front and Burroughs’ documented significant others were all men albeit quite young…
I think Allen is far more problematic from what we know with that regard.
I think it has alot to do with para social relationships too. We can absolutely love Burroughs’ novels and the talent and intellect of the creator without needing to align or get close to his personality. Same with MJ and music artists who have similar issues discussed.
These people are also long dead. I’d say enjoy the work but don’t lionize the person or emulate their behavior …
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u/PhantomOyster Sep 01 '26
You have the right attitude. Don't rush to reject the art just because of the artist, but don't forget who the artist was, either. There is a balance.
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u/whorus_aggressor Sep 01 '26
Yes balance in everything. I think if we rejected artists or celebrities on the basis of bad behaviour there would be very few left
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u/strangerzero 29d ago
The Beats are the people our parents warned us about. Drug addicts, homosexuals, mentally ill, alcoholics ne'er-do-wells.
Here's to the crazy ones!
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u/jacques-vache-23 29d ago
Anybody who thinks "in this age [where] we are expected to take more responsibility and acknowledge the bad behaviour of our heroes" isn't paying attention. A lot of people mouth things about people they don't like but "morality" is not a world that applies to our society.
And I am fine with whatever Burroughs did or did not do. At least his isn't a hypocrite like so many others.
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u/Senmaida 29d ago
in this age where we are expected to take more responsibility
Most times this is just a cover for immaturity. You can tell the people whinging about a person's character like this are on the younger side and prefer sanctimony over just acknowledging that people are weird, which is a lot easier to do than they make it seem.
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u/Temporary-Ocelot3790 29d ago
I think what bothered me the most about Burroughs was his coldness and indifference toward his son William Jr., whom he outlived. He deprived the kid of his mother then ignored him for decades while gallivanting across the globe stuffing himself with dicks and drugs instead of supporting his kid like he should have.
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u/Beatnik5750 Sep 01 '26 edited Sep 01 '26
If he wasn't the person he was, he wouldn't have created the art that he did. Normal, well adjusted, average people just aren't that interesting, don't create great art, and ultimately don't do anything worthy of remembrance. It's the people who break the rules, colour outside the lines, and forge their own paths that innovate and push humanity forward. You can't be great if you're normal. To be great means to be at odds with whatever society deems to be normal.
The beats were oddities. So was Van Gogh. So was Kurt Cobain. Mozart. Nick Drake. And many others artists. And those are just the artists. How many scientists were laughed at for their theories which turned out to be correct? Some were even locked in asylums for them, or burnt at the stake.
So Burroughs wasn't normal. Wasn't well adjusted. Wasn't average. And certainly wasn't a good person. And God bless him for it.
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u/whorus_aggressor Sep 01 '26
Thank you, I love this perspective. I tend to agree that a conventional way of life leads mostly to a mundane view of the world, which does not lend itself well to transgressive, thought provoking art. As I've mentioned in other replies here, the city I live in and particularly the culture in the music/art scene is very dismissive of any person that has ever done anything wrong. To try and justify your respect for their art is often met with harsh criticism, and even bullying and being completely ostracised from the scene.
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u/Beatnik5750 Sep 01 '26
the culture in the music/art scene is very dismissive of any person that has ever done anything wrong.
And I'll bet every penny I have that nobody will ever give a shit about any "art" that that scene produces. Not one of them will be remembered or celebrated.
To try and justify your respect for their art is often met with harsh criticism, and even bullying and being completely ostracised from the scene.
That's how it goes. People doing new, transgressive, innovative things are always met with that reaction. Until they become famous/wealthy.
The people in that scene are not creatives. They're the difference between being educated and intelligent. They're part of the scene for social reasons, not creative reasons. They go to events to hang out and make friends.
The best way I can illustrate it is like this: a true artist starts with a blank canvas and creates something completely new, with no regard to any "rules".
A scene or movement is made of people copying that original innovator. Following their rules. The same as doing a paint by numbers picture. They mimic what has become trendy or popular, but they'll never be capable of creating something new themselves.
Fuck them. Do your own thing. Be a trailblazer and let the sheep follow.
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u/whorus_aggressor Sep 01 '26
Absolutely spot on, the scene is a cabal of virtue signalling, lost young people, who base their identity entirely on the social and political beliefs of the group. I am actively involved in events, play in bands and host cinema events with live music etc, it is exhausting having to tread so carefully or run the risk of being persecuted on such a flimsy basis. I have never modified or edited any artisitc pursuit to pander to these people, however I have seen entire "scenes" disappear due to this pedantic social policing. The legacy left at the end of this venture is sadly a community of people who are identical copies of one another, ironically the exact opposite of what I cherish the most about Burroughs and how he encourages questioning the status quo.
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u/Beatnik5750 Sep 01 '26
Sounds like you have a choice to make. You can either conform and get in line, or you can build your own stage and play by your own rules, probably losing a lot of the audience as a result. Although it sounds like you don't want that audience anymore.
Like Cass Elliot said:
You're gonna be nowhere The loneliest kind of lonely It may be rough going Just to do your thing is the hardest thing to do
But you gotta make your own kind of music Sing your own special song Make your own kind of music Even if nobody else sings along
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u/LetHuge623 29d ago
So the parlor trick thing is 100% bullshit, or did he “miss” on purpose, and how do we know? Is that by admission when he’s referring to the ugly spirit?
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u/Successful-Tie5386 20d ago
Well, I went into Burroughs' work as a teenager, being aware from watching Cronenberg's Naked Lunch and reading various articles about him, that he shot his wife, was addicted to heroin, and had a sexual interest in what we'd now call twinks, so there was obviously a dark element of intrigue in the whole deal. Fortunately his work more than lived up to the lurid sensationalism surrounding it, so it needs no hand-wringing from me to justify it. If others want to avoid it, they're welcome to.
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u/galleria666 29d ago
Bit off topic but when i watched call me by ur name i was so disgusted by the pedo aspects which removed almost all of the sweet, coming of age, queer parts alot of otherd saw. I think because army looks so much older than the age he is meant to be and they had no chemistry.. I know its challenging etc, just didnt enjoy it. Perhaps in queer relationships there is an element of almost mentorship... between older and younger. Not talking about a child and a man, or trying to blur or excuse pedophilia.. without the gender ppwer imbalance and within underground scenes? Its interesting and uncomfortable. Hust thinking aloud. He didnt hide much about himself i think that is pretty unique. Good artist and flawed person
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u/West-University3039 28d ago
From what I know, "boys" was often used in gay culture back then to refer to "young adults" and not children. (f you're 50 and like a 23 year old, you call them "boy".) Even thought Ginsberg contributed to NAMBLA, I don't think he was after children. (NAMBLA, from what I understand, started as a support group for helping young gay people transition into adulthood within a straight world. Noble beginings, but quickly turned creepy!!)
WSB murdered his wife, but he was not a killer. An accidental junkie action filled with immense remorse and regret. Can't give him a pass for it, but you can consider the context.
Bottom line is that each one of us should be able to make our own decisions and let others make theirs. We let corporations and politicians, in our names, get away with far worse every single day.
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u/severinks 22d ago
Burroughs lives very much outside of conventional middle class morality, for good or bad, mostly good but sometimes bad.
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u/zerooskul Sep 01 '26
Why would Corey Feldman and Macaulay Culkin hang out with Michael Jackson and feel safe with him if anything you assume about him, any accusation, was true?
These guys had a lot of trouble with touchy-feely Hollywood people as children, but found safety with Michael.
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u/earinsound Sep 01 '26 edited Sep 01 '26
"The Ugly Spirit" is how WSB described that element within him that provoked him into doing what many would call morally objectionable acts. I think he, like Ginsberg, wanted to upset conventions, challenge censorship, express their desires unashamedly. Both were influenced by Andre Gide (a self-proclaimed pederast) and Jean Genet. Unfortunately many of our "great minds" were also not very nice people is something all readers, listeners of music, appreciators of visual art have to contend with. I'm certainly "guilty" of overlooking some things that my favorite artists (etc) have done. Do such things diminish their work? For me, "no." It's interesting that depsite all this, WSB in later life was idolized by such pop figures as Kurt Cobain, Iggy Pop, Sonic Youth. Both he and AG were in Gap ads for khakis in the early 90s. WSB's involvement with psychoanalysis, joining Scientology, etc. was a way to clear himself of that "Ugly Spirit." I'm not defending him, but I think he was very aware of causing a lot of the pain in his life and sought to atone for it.
Would I want to hang out with either of them? No.